Being the other,OW....

[skywriter]

I never start threads, but I was thinking and considered the fact that I'm not certain I've seen this question asked?

 

How would it make you feel being involved in an A, with someone only to discover or suspect that your AP has another AP?

 

This was one of the many reasons I had to stop being involved in an A.

For one, I just am not cut out to share.

 

For another, when I saw how blatantly flirtacious the MM is around other women, wow, the flags were flying!

[skywriter]

trinity1,

 

I can only assume that it must be a very secure and hopeful feeling to know this about your AP.

 

It just wasn't the case for me. In fact, it forced me to reflect on why I would put myself in this position.

 

How it would make me feel if I were his W? How I was participating in betraying another human being. Just on and on, to the point that these questions kept me in a constant state of confusion.

 

 

I had to ask myself why? If he'd turn cowardly upon discovery and hide behind his W? If he'd sleep with another that he was obviously in my face scouting for. Why in the world would I be a party to his deceit?

Edited May 27, 2012 by skywriter

[VioletFemme]

I can imagine that would be painful, if you thought you were exclusive. In my case--which is different from many on here--I happen to think of my lover as a seperated man. If he's free to date me, he's free to date others. I do--date others, that is. Unless or until he is willing to committ to me comepletely, I'm not willing to committ to him fully.

 

Now, I don't have multiple sexual partners. I've gone on a lot of first and second dates this year; not too many men have maintained my interest beyond that. If I find one who does, sex with my current lover will cease. I'm a "one man" woman in the bedroom. I did ask him to give me the same courtesy--if he wants to sleep with someone else, he just needs to stop coming to my bed, no hard feelings. Do I trust that absolutely, trust him absolutely? I trust him mostly. But its the same with any other sexual partner in the early stages of a dating relationship...there's always that awkward window when you know they might still be dating around, when you might still be dating around. I assume no one is exclusive until you communicate it and decide it together.

[frozensprouts]

hope it's okay if i answer...

 

haven't been in an affair, but when i think about it, if i were an other woman, and i found out that the married guy i was seeing was also seeing someone else ( without my knowledge), that would totally shatter any trust i had in them.

Depending upon what they told me was the reason or them having an affair ( I wasn't happy but wouldn't have cheated but you're just so special" type of thing) my trust would be even more destroyed and anything like that they'd said to me would feel totally invalidated. After all, if that's what they told me, then how can they rationalize seeing someone else if I"m so special?

[Silly_Girl]

hope it's okay if i answer...

 

haven't been in an affair, but when i think about it, if i were an other woman, and i found out that the married guy i was seeing was also seeing someone else ( without my knowledge), that would totally shatter any trust i had in them.

Depending upon what they told me was the reason or them having an affair ( I wasn't happy but wouldn't have cheated but you're just so special" type of thing) my trust would be even more destroyed and anything like that they'd said to me would feel totally invalidated. After all, if that's what they told me, then how can they rationalize seeing someone else if I"m so special?

 

I agree FS. That's where I would have had a major issue... If the MM purports that he's 'not a cheater' but there's others it would undermine so much and break any trust built.

 

I think if you've got involved with a 'player' who you know to be a player it's much harder to be indignant.

[skywriter]

This has been my experience with an A.

 

I was like I guess the majority of us. Going through life never expecting to be involved with an already committed person.

 

I got involved with a MM, was told I was his first and only A. No, I don't have pictures, audio or video's, but one thing I've learned out of this experience is when the gut screams listen, I'm listening.

 

Without going into details, I'll say there are too many inicidents that don't add up to me being the only other.

 

I do understand that for some A's they haven't had my experience and so I don't try to claim all A's will turn out the same.

[skywriter]

I can also realise how the average reader might post, "Well, he's married, what did you expect?"

 

....and I wouldn't blame anyone for that as I've had to say it to myself.

 

I've learned that life teaches us all lessons in our own time and our own way.

 

For me, I didn't turn a blind eye, I was always listening, paying attention to his patterns of keeping in contact or not.

The biggest indicator for me is how he interacts amongst others. Particularly other females. What he'd say to me and or to other women.

 

I just sat back, watched, waited, and listened. It's amazing what I learned by doing so.

[skywriter]

violetFemme,

 

I really appreciated what you said in post #20 of the stereotypes thread.

 

It described how I felt while being involved with the MM. I tried dating other pople when the MM and I were involved.

 

The MM followed me and my dates, was at my home waiting for me when I'd get in from being out. So he had me snowballed into thinking I was so special.

 

I guess he got comfortable believing that I was his exsclusively, so he decided it was time to branch out.

[skylarblue]

I wouldn’t continue the R if I found there was an OOW. I would feel as if I was the BS. I’d be hurt and angry. I’d feel like our whole R was a lie, and I meant nothing to him otherwise he wouldn’t have cheated on me. I’d feel like everything he told me was lie, and wonder how he could and why would he do that to me. I’d feel betrayed, and I’d feel used. I’d probably have questions although I imagine I couldn’t believe a word coming out his mouth and may be too angry to even care about knowing.

 

Even though xMM was cheating on his W, I didn’t consider him a cheater. If I had any feeling that he was a serial cheater or had a previous A or even a flirtatious nature I wouldn’t have been interested in him. I took being MM first A as meaning I was special. I needed that feeling. There was nothing special about me if xMM had OOW or a previous A. I’d just be another notch on the bedpost.

 

Funny, if I found out that xMM had been having regular sex with his W throughout the whole A, I’d have the same feelings as if he had an OOW. Either one would have been a deal breaker.

[MissBee]

Ironically, if he had an OOW, I'd be upset at his "betrayal of me."

 

But what's good for the goose is also good for the gander. Betraying is wrong or it isn't.

 

There is no inherent reason why a BS must be betrayed or why someone the MP takes a vow with should be respected any less than an OW. It is very hard to argue the logic in this. One comes before the other, so if you're starting off with a person showing disregard in this area, you cannot say you had NO inkling that they are one who probably doesn't value fidelity, should they procure another OW.

 

I suppose an OOW ruins the feeling of specialness and exceptionalism, which you hear again and again. For me it would have. It would have caused me to really wake up and I wouldn't be able to spin any kind of story about how wonderful he is "but it's just that xyz" (proceed into justification for his current infidelity). I'd probably have to admit it is not an external circumstance, or anyone else making him do this...but it is his choice and his problem, which would be a lot less romantic.

[VioletFemme]

violetFemme,

 

I really appreciated what you said in post #20 of the stereotypes thread.

 

It described how I felt while being involved with the MM. I tried dating other pople when the MM and I were involved.

 

The MM followed me and my dates, was at my home waiting for me when I'd get in from being out. So he had me snowballed into thinking I was so special.

 

I guess he got comfortable believing that I was his exsclusively, so he decided it was time to branch out.

 

Not sure what you were referring to with the other thread--the post numbers have rearranged, I think. What was the point I made that struck you?

 

Your married man followed you on dates? Or waited for you to get home? Yikes! That is NOT cool. Could you, in turn, have followed HIM home? I'd have turned that crap around on him REAL fast.

 

My lover and I, in my situation, have even discussed this. It was semi-joking, but we were talking once and he said it might hurt him if "his girl" was with another man. I quickly pointed out--"I'm not YOUR girl." I did go on to add that while I was dating and looking for a long term and committed relationship--since he was in no place to committ--I would end things with him sexually before moving on to a new lover. That's something that I know I cannot do--be in one man's bed one night, another man's the next.

 

I don't necessarily think it's okay that I'm in an affair type relationship. I know--on some level--that he MAY well still sleep with his wife on occassion. I don't really think so, since they are living seperately, but I hold onto the reality that it could happen. And that is beyond my control. I do WISH he would get his head straight and either decide to end his marriage or go try to make it work; it's difficult for me to comprehend him staying in this sort of suspended, half-this half-that thing. But his choices are his own and I cannot make them for him. I can make my choices, and hold myself to the values and views that are important to me.

 

I will NOT sleep with two men at once; I realize he may in fact have two different bed partners, but a confirmed third--would definitely be a deal breaker. I believe in fairness; if I've told him "it's just you in bed, I'll let you go before sleeping with someone else" I do expect the same in return.

 

Double standard? Maybe. But again, my situation is SO different from the STEROTYPICAL affair, that maybe it's not a double standard. Maybe it's just good manners.

[skywriter]

VioletFemme,

Yes, I am currently an "other woman" by many definitions. But I am also many other things: fiercely independent. Intelligent. Strong. Caring and compassionate. A loyal friend. A good daughter and sister. A person who holds dear to her own moral convictions (be they different from yours or not.) If someone tries to paint me as JUST one thing, they miss the rest of the picture. While that may well be their loss--and not affect me too much--they will NEVER get through to me or make me hear or understand them if I've felt thay have been dismissive of me as a whole person. Post # 18 of Stereotypes Thread

 

This part of your post struck me as how so many if not all of us that have been involved in A's feel. Just wanna be ok with who we are and for ones that might be outside looking in to realise we aren't so different.

 

However, I want to take responsibility for the choice I made to be involved with this MM. I need to do this for myself if nobody else. I can't go through this again. It's been hard enough to go through it once.

[beenburned]

sky,

 

How can a MM that is cheating on his wife not be a cheater?

[skywriter]

(((Ladygrey))),

In hindsight I realize that there were many indicators that he was not trustworthy and there were things that I excused, looked over, closed my eyes about, etc. and yes I have responsibility in allowing him to deceive me. The history between him and I and for the time previously that I knew I was the ow should have been indicative of the future and that he was not an honorable man in spite of his spinning it to appear so. So.......I am at fault and it's been a hard, hard lesson. Like many ow before me and many others now, I thought that we were an exception, that the circumstances dictated a one time fall into gray. I was soo wrong, there shouldn't have been an exception and there weren't really any special circumstances. He filled me up with future faking and just enough sweetness to keep me in the game. I was just a game because real love does not come into play when you knowingly hurt and lie those you profess to love. In fact, now I know that he has a very distinct pattern in all his relationships that I know of. He started the relationship with his 2nd wife in much the same way he started it with me, under a lie about him being separated and it's no telling how many other relationships he has had with that same pattern that no one knows about. Patterns......cheating patterns and the ease which one can execute it is scary stuff. So......imo an ow should never assume that she is the only one. High probability that she is not.

 

I can so relate to what you expressed so well. I needed to believe in him to make it ok for me to be involved with him myself.

 

I'm just relieved to know that I will never be an OW again.

[skywriter]

Miss Bee,

I suppose an OOW ruins the feeling of specialness and exceptionalism, which you hear again and again. For me it would have. It would have caused me to really wake up and I wouldn't be able to spin any kind of story about how wonderful he is "but it's just that xyz" (proceed into justification for his current infidelity). I'd probably have to admit it is not an external circumstance, or anyone else making him do this...but it is his choice and his problem, which would be a lot less romantic.

 

Yes, exactly, it woke me, shook me up, & made me nausiated.

 

I never accepted what I was doing well anyway. The sitting back and really observing him and listening without making excuses just made me conclude without concrete evidence mind you that I wasn't the only other.

 

I don't need to put my hand on him with his penis inside of another to believe that I'm not the only one. All I need to do is believe in me and what my gut is telling me.

[skywriter]

skylarblue,Even though xMM was cheating on his W, I didn’t consider him a cheater. If I had any feeling that he was a serial cheater or had a previous A or even a flirtatious nature I wouldn’t have been interested in him. I took being MM first A as meaning I was special. I needed that feeling. There was nothing special about me if xMM had OOW or a previous A. I’d just be another notch on the bedpost.

 

 

This was me at one time. He told me I was his one and only ever. Told me of marital issues, blah, blah, blah.

 

Until I sat back and really paid close attention. Listened well and began to ask the right questions, I was blinded by the man I thought or wanted to believe he was.

[skywriter]

beenburnedsky,

 

How can a MM that is cheating on his wife not be a cheater?

 

 

 

Beenburned,

 

How can a MM that is cheating on his wife not be a cheater?

 

 

Ugh! You went and asked me the obvious question!!! I know, I know, bend over and insert head in ones buttocks!

 

In the words of Rod Stewart, "Still I look to find a reason to believe."

[MissBee]

Miss Bee,

I suppose an OOW ruins the feeling of specialness and exceptionalism, which you hear again and again. For me it would have. It would have caused me to really wake up and I wouldn't be able to spin any kind of story about how wonderful he is "but it's just that xyz" (proceed into justification for his current infidelity). I'd probably have to admit it is not an external circumstance, or anyone else making him do this...but it is his choice and his problem, which would be a lot less romantic.

 

Yes, exactly, it woke me, shook me up, & made me nausiated.

 

I never accepted what I was doing well anyway. The sitting back and really observing him and listening without making excuses just made me conclude without concrete evidence mind you that I wasn't the only other.

 

I don't need to put my hand on him with his penis inside of another to believe that I'm not the only one. All I need to do is believe in me and what my gut is telling me.

 

This is so important. Listening without making excuses. For ALL relationships.

 

Once you REALLY do that...you see things very clearly.

 

But truthfully, sometimes we don't want to see things clearly. The current situation is fine for us, the instant gratification and what we can get now outweighs the potential truth of the situation at large. If we can look at this small piece, how this person is with us, or be insular and just focus on "us" or feel good emotions....then that is fine. I've done it.

 

Most of us have a stake in believing what we believe about people/situations. In an A it is not hard to see why someone would rather believe a man cheating on his wife is not really a cheater...it is just XYZ, but OUR relationship is different. I get it. I do. It makes sense....it may not be logical on an objective level...but it makes sense subjectively why our brains do this. Living your life where you value listening and observing without making excuses foremost produces a very different worldview...one that is more true to life. It is not easy though and takes a commitment to truth at all cost...whether that truth is disappointing or not.

Edited May 27, 2012 by MissBee

[pureinheart]

I never start threads, but I was thinking and considered the fact that I'm not certain I've seen this question asked?

 

How would it make you feel being involved in an A, with someone only to discover or suspect that your AP has another AP?

 

This was one of the many reasons I had to stop being involved in an A.

For one, I just am not cut out to share.

 

For another, when I saw how blatantly flirtacious the MM is around other women, wow, the flags were flying!

 

This might sound weird, and even though some are married, some of your most flitatious people are commitment phobes.

 

Now that I am able to sit back and observe my choices for men from a distance, out of all my relationships I found the DM was without a doubt the most flirtatious. I thought because of his loyalty to me he would change...nope, flirting was/is too instilled in him.

 

I would venture to say that he has been this way most of his life. He combs the streets looking for prospects...everywhere, always on the look out. From what I remember he had "spots" (I don't know what else to call it), various women that he would make his rounds, going over to their houses and such during the affair.

 

During his divorce I think it got worse, because now he could be more open with it. There were a couple of them that I suspected, but the name of the game was to deny, deny, deny.

 

I am just now delving into this area and really understanding it and things are coming together slowly. My advice to anyone who is dealing with this behavior is to run for the hills as fast as you can or keep them as friends because they make much better friends. The only emotional attachment is the attachment you have with them...they are unable to reciprocate.

 

I'm not sure if this behavior is on a conscious level. I know the behavior is a reaction to great trauma.

 

Also, hating them, being hurt, whatever is a waste of time, just heal and gain knowledge because it is not your fault, meaning they don't do these things because they are out to get you or the thinking that something is wrong with you just isn't the truth. I had a bf who was like this and later he told me that he wanted to see what it felt like to hurt me in that manor because it had been done to him...now that one was sick:sick::sick: It was very clear that he knew exactly what he was doing.

 

Very good thread SW, I want to participate more in your thread because I am trying to heal from this.

[beenburned]

Sky,

 

Most MM are good looking, charming, smooth talking, and strive to make everyone think they are the all round good guy.

 

But MM who are multiple cheaters are very good con artists that have perfected their cheating lifestyle to entice naive trusting women.

 

Is this(above), what you meant when you said he didn't seem like the cheating type?

[skywriter]

(((pureinheart))),

 

The MM that I was involved in, was methodical. He held back for as long as it took to get me attached and involved before he gradually began to show his colors.

 

He knew not to flirt around other women. He didn't immediatly behave this way. He realised the type of no nonsense woman I am.

 

I'm not flirtacious, in fact I'm more reserved. If I'm with you, then, that's it, I'm with you. You don't have to ever doubt my loyalty.

 

I was quite taken back when he felt comfortable to flirt. He saw it in my expressions and laughed it off as , awww, just playing around. When I called him out on it, he'd get defensive, call me insecure, cut the conversation short.

 

It became an act of wills, either tolerate it or leave. So I chose door number two. HIs parting words, were, to shout, "you're not my Wife"!

[whichwayisup]

If Neo hadn't been married, he would not be with his wife any longer. It is the institution of being married that keeps him there. So in no way am I worried that he would get an OOW. If he found himself wanting to be involved with another woman, he would end our relationship.

 

Say if he didn't end it and you found out about OOW or he told you he met someone else and wanted to be with them as well, would you still continue on with him? I ask this with respect.

[beenburned]

sky,

 

We cross posted.

 

So your MM thought that because you were cheating with him, that you would tolerate those bad behaviors/boundaries, where as his wife(if she knew) would not tolerate them.

[skywriter]

Beenburned,

Most MM are good looking, charming, smooth talking, and strive to make everyone think they are the all round good guy.

 

But MM who are multiple cheaters are very good con artists that have perfected their cheating lifestyle to entice naive trusting women.

 

Is this(above), what you meant when you said he didn't seem like the cheating type?

 

I couldn't find where I said he didn't seem like the cheating type. But in response to your question, thinking back, he really didn't seem like the cheating type when I first met him.

 

He was methodical in his behavior and timing. It was kinda like he was whatever I needed at the time. Prompt and regular at calling, good listener, flattering, was where he said he'd be when he said he'd be there.

 

It didn't last and gradually he changed and I sat back and whatched alot of incidents unfold. I'd call him out on things and he'd say, "I wish you'd quit listening to your gut". NOt, "no this isn't the way I meant this or that".

 

Around other women, he began to say inapprpriate flirtacious remarks. Everyone responded with, "Oh that's just his way". I'm like, "since when?"

 

Then he began to get touchy towards other women. So, my mind backtracks to the past. I call him out more often and I get a very defensive attitude. So, I realise, I've been played.

Edited May 27, 2012 by skywriter

[skywriter]

Beenburned,

I tried to tell his W. I really don't want to elaborate as you never know who comes on these sites.

 

The MM eventually brought his W to my front door. Without my consent.

 

I tried to tell her on two seperate occasions. She wasn't hearing any of it.

 

She got angry at me and cut me off. So, it makes sense why he will never change.

 

She knows but she doesn't want to hear it.

 

I sure got myself in a mess when I got involved with him.

 

Please don't ask me to elaborate too much more , I'd like to remain anonymous here.

Edited May 27, 2012 by skywriter