Feminism and real men.

[udolipixie]

I say that in the context of dealing with men not general. When it comes to men and mother's teaching them about dating I always say this: When it comes to dating momma was wrong. You see that all on this forum. Men in the context of dating mostly should take advice of men because there are few women that actually give honest advice.

 

Seems that daughters need their fathers to learn to deal with guys and learn values like independence and not taking behavior while sons need their fathers to learn to be a man and deal with gals as the mother is incompetent.

 

You stated you're not ignoring mothers but they have different roles bit curious as to what you think this role is as by your logic I'm not seeing any need other than to give birth. You stated for the daughter the mother can instill values like independence and not taking bad behavior but it's hard to teach them without a visual example (different genitals).

Though I thought the mother's interaction and relationships with guys is a visual example.

 

I highly doubt the mother is the sole or main cause of the dating issues with the guys on this forum. It may be because they're short, unattractive or uninteresting to the gals they want or have self-esteem/worth issues.

 

Different experiences as to few gals actually give honest advice as mine have been that many do however the guy's response is disbelief, 'gals don't know what they want', 'don't listen to what a gal says she doesn't know what they want', "this doesn't matter to gals that does'. Essentially it seems for many when they hear advice they dislike they dismiss it because gals thoughts, emotions, and words are essentially dismissable.

[Woggle]

If we had a generation of motherless boys and girls we would a bunch of problems with that but in a different way.

[joystickd]

Seems that daughters need their fathers to learn to deal with guys and learn values like independence and not taking behavior while sons need their fathers to learn to be a man and deal with gals as the mother is incompetent.

 

You stated you're not ignoring mothers but they have different roles bit curious as to what you think this role is as by your logic I'm not seeing any need other than to give birth. You stated for the daughter the mother can instill values like independence and not taking bad behavior but it's hard to teach them without a visual example (different genitals).

Though I thought the mother's interaction and relationships with guys is a visual example.

 

I highly doubt the mother is the sole or main cause of the dating issues with the guys on this forum. It may be because they're short, unattractive or uninteresting to the gals they want or have self-esteem/worth issues.

 

Different experiences as to few gals actually give honest advice as mine have been that many do however the guy's response is disbelief, 'gals don't know what they want', 'don't listen to what a gal says she doesn't know what they want', "this doesn't matter to gals that does'. Essentially it seems for many when they hear advice they dislike they dismiss it because gals thoughts, emotions, and words are essentially dismissable.

What the mother says is a source of problems.

Let's see: Mother teach men to be nice and respect women then say "Son be nice and women will want you" or "Women want nice guys". It's some variation of these two statements. The frustration comes when they realize that when they do this the success in dating sucks because the advice is incomplete advice. Women talk about being nice and that is what is good in a man but talking about what they want in a man and what attracts them to a man is two different things. Its not that mom is wrong but that mom has a different motivation of attraction and articulating that to the opposite sex when logic is a big motivator of the man is a big problem.

 

How many women you know actually say "I don't like nice guys. I like men with some edge not jerks. They know how to reach me on an emotional level."? Not many to none at all and its because most cannot really articulate that. This is why there is frustration on the woman's part when the why women like jerks question comes up. So on some level mom is wrong. Even when a man experiences a certain level of success with women the mom will make comments to derail his success.

 

Think of it like this: Does a deer hunter ask a deer how to hunt it (that is if deer could talk)?

[udolipixie]

What the mother says is a source of problems.

Daughters need their fathers to learn to deal with guys and sons need their fathers to learn to deal with gals as 'when it comes to dating momma was wrong' and what mothers say is a source of problems.

 

Daughters need their fathers to instill values like independence and not taking bad behavior while mothers can instill those values it's hard without a visual example (different genitals).

 

Daughters need their fathers to recognize their value as women and sons need their fathers to teach them how to be a man.

 

Again you stated you're not ignoring mothers but they have different roles bit curious as to what you think this role is as by your logic I'm not seeing any need other than to give birth.

[joystickd]

Daughters need their fathers to learn to deal with guys and sons need their fathers to learn to deal with gals as 'when it comes to dating momma was wrong' and what mothers say is a source of problems.

 

Daughters need their fathers to instill values like independence and not taking bad behavior while mothers can instill those values it's hard without a visual example (different genitals).

 

Daughters need their fathers to recognize their value as women and sons need their fathers to teach them how to be a man.

 

Again you stated you're not ignoring mothers but they have different roles bit curious as to what you think this role is as by your logic I'm not seeing any need other than to give birth.

I said they have different roles. I was just pointing out importance of fathers. Hell look at this forum you got this because men took mother literally

[udolipixie]

What the mother says is a source of problems.

Let's see: Mother teach men to be nice and respect women then say "Son be nice and women will want you" or "Women want nice guys". It's some variation of these two statements. The frustration comes when they realize that when they do this the success in dating sucks because the advice is incomplete advice. Women talk about being nice and that is what is good in a man but talking about what they want in a man and what attracts them to a man is two different things. Its not that mom is wrong but that mom has a different motivation of attraction and articulating that to the opposite sex when logic is a big motivator of the man is a big problem.

 

How many women you know actually say "I don't like nice guys. I like men with some edge not jerks. They know how to reach me on an emotional level."? Not many to none at all and its because most cannot really articulate that. This is why there is frustration on the woman's part when the why women like jerks question comes up. So on some level mom is wrong. Even when a man experiences a certain level of success with women the mom will make comments to derail his success.

 

Think of it like this: Does a deer hunter ask a deer how to hunt it (that is if deer could talk)?

 

Seems to be that intrepretation is the problem as from my experiences

gals generally do want nice guys however guys interpretation that as be nice and she'll be attracted to you. When it's rather be nice when she is attracted to you as that's what she wants in a guy she's attracted to not what she finds attractive.

 

I know many gals they say want a guy with some edge, a bad guy, a nice guy, or a guy who's bad and good. From my experiences most gals aren't incapable or articulating what they want.

 

As for your deer question it implies that mothers may be purposefully setting their sons up for failure. The other implication is as a deer she wouldn't know how to hunt however when it came to fathers advising daughters that didn't seem to matter.

[Woggle]

Having a positive relationship with both a mother and father teaches people how to deal with the opposite sex and gives people a good example of a relationship between the opposite sex. Today we see all around the results of people who were never learned or never saw an example of how to relate to the opposite sex.

 

My wife has a great relationship with her father and I can see a definite difference between her and some of the other women I have dated.

[joystickd]

Seems to be that intrepretation is the problem as from my experiences

gals generally do want nice guys however guys interpretation that as be nice and she'll be attracted to you. When it's rather be nice when she is attracted to you as that's what she wants in a guy she's attracted to not what she finds attractive.

 

I know many gals they say want a guy with some edge, a bad guy, a nice guy, or a guy who's bad and good. From my experiences most gals aren't incapable or articulating what they want.

 

As for your deer question it implies that mothers may be purposefully setting their sons up for failure. The other implication is as a deer she wouldn't know how to hunt however when it came to fathers advising daughters that didn't seem to matter.

I stated the daughter situation as an example of the importance of fathers but the context of men and mom advice on dating that is more on topic with what OP is talking

[udolipixie]

I said they have different roles. I was just pointing out importance of fathers. Hell look at this forum you got this because men took mother literally

 

I know you said different roles and even made note of that.

 

I'm asking what is this role as you stated you're not ignoring mothers but they have different roles but by your logic I'm not seeing any need other than to give birth. There's the possible daughters need their mothers to learn to be a woman though that's incomplete as by your logic the father is needed for the daughter to recognize her value as a woman.

 

Your logic thus far:

Daughters need their fathers to learn to deal with guys.

Mothers can do that but it's hard without a visual example I thought the mother dealing with guys would be an example however visual example means directly dealing with an opposite gender parent.

 

Sons need their fathers to learn to deal with gals.

Mothers can't do that for their sons as 'when it comes to dating momma was wrong' and what mothers say is a source of problems and on some level wrong. Dealing with an opposite gender parent isn't important for guys in this case and actually a hinderance.

 

Daughters need their fathers to recognize their value as a woman and to instill values such as independence and not taking bad behavior.

Mothers can do that but it's hard without a visual example which means directly dealing with an opposite gender parent though I'm unsure why.

 

Sons need their fathers to learn to be a man.

[joystickd]

Seems to be that intrepretation is the problem as from my experiences

gals generally do want nice guys however guys interpretation that as be nice and she'll be attracted to you. When it's rather be nice when she is attracted to you as that's what she wants in a guy she's attracted to not what she finds attractive.

 

I know many gals they say want a guy with some edge, a bad guy, a nice guy, or a guy who's bad and good. From my experiences most gals aren't incapable or articulating what they want.

As for your deer question it implies that mothers may be purposefully setting their sons up for failure. The other implication is as a deer she wouldn't know how to hunt however when it came to fathers advising daughters that didn't seem to matter.

This is exactly why I say when it comes to dating momma was wrong:D

[udolipixie]

This is exactly why I say when it comes to dating momma was wrong:D

 

The why being when it comes to dating momma was wrong because gals aren't a hive mind but human beings that tend to want and be attracted to different thing?

[joystickd]

I know you said different roles and even made note of that.

 

I'm asking what is this role as you stated you're not ignoring mothers but they have different roles but by your logic I'm not seeing any need other than to give birth. There's the possible daughters need their mothers to learn to be a woman though that's incomplete as by your logic the father is needed for the daughter to recognize her value as a woman.

 

Your logic thus far:

Daughters need their fathers to learn to deal with guys.

Mothers can do that but it's hard without a visual example I thought the mother dealing with guys would be an example however visual example means directly dealing with an opposite gender parent.

 

Sons need their fathers to learn to deal with gals.

Mothers can't do that for their sons as 'when it comes to dating momma was wrong' and what mothers say is a source of problems and on some level wrong. Dealing with an opposite gender parent isn't important for guys in this case and actually a hinderance.

 

Daughters need their fathers to recognize their value as a woman and to instill values such as independence and not taking bad behavior.

Mothers can do that but it's hard without a visual example which means directly dealing with an opposite gender parent though I'm unsure why.

 

Sons need their fathers to learn to be a man.

It was an example of father's role. This is a thread about men here. Start one about women and I might elaborate further

[ThaWholigan]

This is exactly why I say when it comes to dating momma was wrong:D

In a way I'm lucky. My mother never told me that nice ****. She was always telling me to be confident in myself. One thing she did that I now regret was warning me away from weight training as she thought it would be bad for me. God knows how she came to that conclusion. Even now, when I show her a pic of Michael Jai White and say I want a build like that, she makes a face and says "he's too muscly, I don't want you to look like that :laugh:".

 

Just an anecdote......

[udolipixie]

It was an example of father's role. This is a thread about men here. Start one about women and I might elaborate further

I doubt you'd be able to elaborate on that past give birth and childcare as the example of father's role shows that the mother can't even do for the opposite or same gender child as the father is need. The mother may not even be able to teach the gal how to be a woman competently as the father is needed for her to recognize her value as a woman and she looks to him for affection, respect and affirmation of her femininity.

[udolipixie]

Having a positive relationship with both a mother and father teaches people how to deal with the opposite sex and gives people a good example of a relationship between the opposite sex. Today we see all around the results of people who were never learned or never saw an example of how to relate to the opposite sex.

 

My wife has a great relationship with her father and I can see a definite difference between her and some of the other women I have dated.

 

I think those are the results of people who never learned or saw a healthy positive example of relating to the opposite sex.

 

Having a positive relationship with both a mother and father doesn't necessarily teaches people how to deal with the opposite sex and give people a good example of a relationship between the opposite sex. Stating otherwise is assuming the mother/father have a relationship that will be a good example as well as that the child looks to the mother/father to set the standard and it's increasingly common that parents often aren't role models or looked to for guidance.

 

I know gals who have positive relationships with their fathers/mothers however some didn't set them up as role models looking to them to set the standard and some didn't have parents that had a good relationships. These gals are bleeding their guys dry or cheating on their husbands left and right as well as aborting the evidence of the affairs.

[Woggle]

Some people grow up in a good home and still turn out rotten while others come from hell and manage to rise above it but most of the women I have known who are incapable of having a healthy relationship either had no relationship with their father or had a bad one. Almosy every woman I have known who is in a happy marriage or relationship has a good relationship with her father.

[sally4sara]

In many ways, I have found benefit in not having a father in my life. I didn't have someone shoving their own preference of behavior for women in my face. I didn't have that creepy pressure to hide my interest in sex from a man who is the last person who should be thinking of me in a sexual manner. No one telling me I wasn't ladylike enough or teaching me to fear men because "men only want one thing". No one deterring me from less girly pursuits. No one pushing me towards girly pursuits I didn't show interest in on my own. No one expecting less of me/teaching me less self sufficiency skills because they expected I would be one day finding a man to take care of me.

 

And yet somehow, I have a well rounded son I raised on my own from ages 4 to 9 until I met a man I would have a fantastic relationship with and who would be a fabulous influence to a boy he did not biologically father in a great many ways my son's biological father could never have accomplished.

 

Maybe repeating "a boy needs a man to learn to be a man and a girl needs a man to learn how to value herself" doesn't always equal truth? Some people would be better off without either of the parents they were born to. I believe its a crap shoot for most people and trying to find some target group to blame it on is a huge waste of time.

[joystickd]

The why being when it comes to dating momma was wrong because gals aren't a hive mind but human beings that tend to want and be attracted to different thing?

Women want nice but are not really attracted to the stereotypical nice guy. Its not about a hive mind but when dealing with women and the primary motivation being emotion a very great inconsistency occurs between what you say you want and what you are attracted to because it stirs up certain emotions. You can't sit and analyze and dissect all you want but even you know this is true. Women are very inconsistent when it comes to saying what they want and being attracted to someone. That gap is greater than men and that makes the advice women give very questionable in the context of the early stages of dating maybe it has some value in the LTR sense.

[Woggle]

Everybody knows the relationship I have with my mother but I know damn well I would have benefited my having a positive mother figure in my life. It's not a good thing when a son can't call his mother on mother's day because he knows all she will do is rip into him.

[udolipixie]

Some people grow up in a good home and still turn out rotten while others come from hell and manage to rise above it but most of the women I have known who are incapable of having a healthy relationship either had no relationship with their father or had a bad one. Almosy every woman I have known who is in a happy marriage or relationship has a good relationship with her father.

 

I'm aware some people can grow up 'good' and turn out 'bad' and my statement was that your statement doesn't by default teach the child how to be good much less have them growing up good.

 

Having a positive relationship with both a mother and father doesn't by default teaches people how to deal with the opposite sex and gives people a good example of a relationship between the opposite sex. As it's assuming that the child looks to the parents as role models to set the standards they'll follow and that the parents have a relationship that would be a healthy example.

[Woggle]

I'm aware some people can grow up 'good' and turn out 'bad' and my statement was that your statement doesn't by default teach the child how to be good much less have them growing up good.

 

Having a positive relationship with both a mother and father doesn't by default teaches people how to deal with the opposite sex and gives people a good example of a relationship between the opposite sex. As it's assuming that the child looks to the parents as role models to set the standards they'll follow and that the parents have a relationship that would be a healthy example.

 

I agree but I also think that showing your kids a positive example of a relationship is one of the best gifts you can give them and will serve them well in life.

[joystickd]

I'm aware some people can grow up 'good' and turn out 'bad' and my statement was that your statement doesn't by default teach the child how to be good much less have them growing up good.

 

Having a positive relationship with both a mother and father doesn't by default teaches people how to deal with the opposite sex and gives people a good example of a relationship between the opposite sex. As it's assuming that the child looks to the parents as role models to set the standards they'll follow and that the parents have a relationship that would be a healthy example.

Well who would they look to then since they can't look to their parents.

[sally4sara]

Well who would they look to then since they can't look to their parents.

 

To their peers that have good relationships. To families in their community that have good relationships. To other family members (aunts/uncles/grandparents/cousins) with good relationships. Relationships are not rare. How did I learn to not beat on my kid when my mother and step father beat on me? I learned from watching families where abuse was not present and made a conscious choice to not be like my home example. I highly doubt I'm so trig and special that I'd be the only person to figure out how to be different than my home example. It always comes down to a person's ability to adapt and seek new venues to what they need and want.

[udolipixie]

Women want nice but are not really attracted to the stereotypical nice guy. Its not about a hive mind but when dealing with women and the primary motivation being emotion a very great inconsistency occurs between what you say you want and what you are attracted to because it stirs up certain emotions. You can't sit and analyze and dissect all you want but even you know this is true. Women are very inconsistent when it comes to saying what they want and being attracted to someone. That gap is greater than men and that makes the advice women give very questionable in the context of the early stages of dating maybe it has some value in the LTR sense.

 

Some gals want nice and some gals want nice and are attracted to the stereotypical nice guy.

 

Guys generally want a nice gal however they don't seem to think saying they 'I want a nice gal' equates to 'be nice and I'll be attracted to you'. Yet often when guys hears gals want nice guys he's not hearing that 'gals want a partner who is nice' but 'be nice and she'll be attracted to you'. Perhaps it's not inconsistency but misintrepretation by the guy as he's not hearing what is said but what he wants to hear. Then when he sees what was actually said playing out in life his response is 'gals don't know what they want', 'don't listen to what a gal says she doesn't know what they want', "this doesn't matter to gals that does'.

[joystickd]

I look and am beginning to notice this need for some women to desire this blurring of roles. Its wrong and creates confusion. Would any points be scored if everyone was a quarterback on a football team? No there would be no guards, tackles, ends, wide recievers or running backs. Mothers and fathers are a team and they both have different roles in instilling values in children. We look at society and they raise the role of mother higher than the father hell even totally ignore the man's role. I have no problem with feminism overall only with the fringe crazies that permeate in it and as we can see its spreading even to the more moderate feminists. I have always been one to see feminism and racism not as divide and conquer but now as divide and make money off of them. There is more money to be made of division than unity.