Dating your "equal" - ?????

[iris219]

And I believe that people who are you equal are your league.

 

I really don't understand why somebody who is not fat and ugly, should date somebody that is.

 

No one should do anything, but I know why people do. Could it be because there’s more to relationships than how someone looks?

 

Simply not being fat and ugly doesn’t make two people "equal." People are more complex than that. You can't fully evaluate people based on weight and appearance.

[stillafool]

This thread is interesting. I thought dating "out of your league" had to do with career and education. I had no idea it had to do with ones looks.

[ThaWholigan]

This thread is interesting. I thought dating "out of your league" had to do with career and education. I had no idea it had to do with ones looks.

Well I did mention in one of my prior posts that in London, class is more of an issue than looks with regards to leagues. I find it tough making myself attractive to a certain subset of girls because I have no money, for example.

 

Seeing as everyone is focused on looks and "why short dudes can't get laid" or "why women only like perfect looking guys" or something along those lines, I gave it a platform as to why they think people should date their "equals" and what their "equal" is. I don't think anyone has the right to tell someone who their equal is. It smacks of pseudo-elitism.

[d'Arthez]

I find it tough making myself attractive to a certain subset of girls because I have no money, for example.

If that certain subset of girls is what you want: go earn some money so you can make yourself attractive to them. If not, then why be fussed?

[somedude81]

Why should anyone date anyone they don't want to date? At any rate, as this thread says, "ugly" (like beautiful) is in the eye of the beholder. If someone wants to date someone you find ugly, even if you would consider that person not ugly, why would you care?

Nobody should date anyone they don't want to. I was annoyed that it was being suggested.

It is usually because they have other attractive traits. People don't generally date people who they don't find attractive, yet many thin people date fat people. Newsflash: some thin people are actually attracted to their fat partners, whether it is because of or in spite of their fat bodies.

Yeah, I know that some thin people are attracted to fat people. But I'm not saying that every thin person should be, which seems to be a belief around here.

 

And right now, I'm getting very annoyed that some women are now saying that because I want a woman who isn't overweight, it automatically means that I want a girl who is considered above average. I know it's nothing more than an attempt to knock me down because I keep saying that I want a normal girl, and don't need somebody who is above average. Frankly, the girls I see everyday, the vast majority of them are not overweight, that is normal for where I live. I don't give a damn if the national average is overweight, that is not my reality. The average person is also 40 years old...

No one should do anything, but I know why people do. Could it be because there’s more to relationships than how someone looks?

 

Simply not being fat and ugly doesn’t make two people "equal." People are more complex than that. You can't fully evaluate people based on weight and appearance.

No, but it forms the basis. It's the first requirement. Once it's been met, then the other details become relevant.

[d'Arthez]

The average person is also 40 years old...

The average person in the US is 29 or 30 years. Much lower than in the rest of the Western world. If you look at median age, it is about 36 for men, 38 for women.

 

No, but it forms the basis. It's the first requirement. Once it's been met, then the other details become relevant.

How is it working for you? I judge a person on character, and if it is a good character, almost by default will she become hot.

[ThaWholigan]

If that certain subset of girls is what you want: go earn some money so you can make yourself attractive to them. If not' date=' then why be fussed?[/quote']

I'm not fussed, I'm working on it . Besides, that "subset" falls into a large section of girls I'm interested in.

[somedude81]

This thread is interesting. I thought dating "out of your league" had to do with career and education. I had no idea it had to do with ones looks.

And that's part of it as well.

 

If two people are similar in appearance, have the same education, make similar amounts of money and the same social class etc, they are in each others league.

 

But for some reason that's not good enough for many women.

[ThaWholigan]

Nobody should date anyone they don't want to. I was annoyed that it was being suggested.

 

Yeah, I know that some thin people are attracted to fat people. But I'm not saying that every thin person should be, which seems to be a belief around here.

 

And right now, I'm getting very annoyed that some women are now saying that because I want a woman who isn't overweight, it automatically means that I want a girl who is considered above average. I know it's nothing more than an attempt to knock me down because I keep saying that I want a normal girl, and don't need somebody who is above average. Frankly, the girls I see everyday, the vast majority of them are not overweight, that is normal for where I live. I don't give a damn if the national average is overweight, that is not my reality. The average person is also 40 years old...

 

No, but it forms the basis. It's the first requirement. Once it's been met, then the other details become relevant.

Who is telling you to date who you don't want? I wouldn't suggest that to you. I just think you should elevate yourself to a level where you can feel more comfortable with yourself enough to date a girl who you are attracted to without her having to "give you a chance", but rather because she is attracted to you. There are probably girls out there whom you would like who would be attracted to you - a happier you.

[iris219]

Nobody should date anyone they don't want to. I was annoyed that it was being suggested.

 

No one is suggesting you date people you aren’t attracted to, but that you be open to letting attraction develop with someone you may not have initially found attractive.

 

This is why people on here get annoyed with YOU. You seem very close minded in this way.

 

I assume that's what happened with the attractive women in TW's OP. They got to know these less attractive men and developed a connection. You don't seem willing to try this.

[ThaWholigan]

And that's part of it as well.

 

If two people are similar in appearance, have the same education, make similar amounts of money and the same social class etc, they are in each others league.

 

But for some reason that's not good enough for many women.

 

This is exactly what I was referring to when I was talking about pseudo-elitism. I'm not saying that women should demand to date a man who is far above them in all respects. I'm saying that to simply attribute leagues to people based on such external factors is a futile endeavor as people will consistently defy those leagues by either dating down or up, hence the league system is flawed. Men and women do it too, There are rich women who will date a poor dude who isn't the absolute best looking in the world, and vice versa.

[ThaWholigan]

No one is suggesting you date people you aren’t attracted to, but that you be open to letting attraction develop with someone you may not have initially found attractive.

 

This is why people on here get annoyed with YOU. You seem very close minded in this way.

 

I assume that's what happened with the attractive women in TW's OP. They got to know these less attractive men and developed a connection. You don't seem willing to try this.

 

Not just that, but some women actually found these men attractive quite quickly. It's this myth that only good looking rich dudes have all the fun that I'm trying to dispel here, as well as the fact that what one person considers an "equal" to another may be vastly different to the actual person themselves.

[snug.bunny]

When I met my first boyfriend, neither of us were attracted to the other. So I guess that meant we were eachother's equals. We actually disliked one another (I knew him through mutual friends). But by most accounts, women found him very attractive. He is under 6 feet, small build, wasn't rich.

 

After a few months of running into one another, we dated for a bit, then stopped. Then ran into each other a year later, and we were in a relationship for 3 years. During those three years, the attraction was off the charts, he was an absolutely wonderful boyfriend and we had a very passionate relationship and were best friends.

 

So, there is one statistic.

[zengirl]

Nobody should date anyone they don't want to. I was annoyed that it was being suggested.

 

Huh? I think it was being suggested that everyone has their individual tastes and that there is no such thing as set 'leagues' as such, not that anyone should date someone they don't want to -- but rather that you cannot have the expectation that people will date you because you think you have similar levels of attractiveness or external factors, etc, etc.

[snug.bunny]

Not finding you attractive is not that hard sister.

 

So, does this mean you're my equal?

[dasein]

To respond to OP, as someone with experience on both sides of the 80/20 equation, and also experiencing it through friends on both sides of it, it is absolutely true. A vast majority of women chase a tiny percentage of top men, will share those men with other women provided the sharing isn't too obvious and in their face, and this is true no matter what the woman looks like. Women gauge their league by what is the most desirable man who will sleep with them...once or twice , which leads to an absurd overestimation of their worth as a dating or relationship partner.

 

I have had women who earn 1/3 what I earn, come from lesser families than mine, are less attractive physically than me, less educated, etc., condescend and talk down to me while dating as if I don't "measure up" because some pro athlete threw them a couple of f-cks back in the 90s. No joke. The funniest part of it is this is why they are always bringing up the ex talk, they want to get that out there that they "dated":rolleyes: some celebrity. :lmao:

 

Men don't do this. Men are not the celebrity obsessed gender, men are not the BBD upgrader gender, men are not the gender who starts most divorces, men are not the gender who comes to forums like this and posts "why o why are the butterflies gone??" when they decide they want to f-ck their boss and dump their BF. This is a gender issue. It's a given reality that every man must get past. Your experience with short ugly friends getting laid by hot women is either anomalous or there's more to the picture than you are seeing and telling us. I knew two short ugly guys who got laid constantly in college. No idea why until I heard one of them had the nickname "tripod." The other was named "the elephant." All became clear.

[ptp]

I think all people -- male and female -- respond more strongly to people who are physically attractive to THEM, which can vary, as TW says, and can be augmented or hindered by other traits, as xxoo says. Of course part of almost everyone's criteria (and should be) is feeling sexually attracted to their mate, so someone who sparks that fire is going to be responded to more strongly, especially if other qualities are unknown.

 

However, I think part of TW's point is that there are people who are not objectively classified as "hot" who individual women/men have found VERY hot.

 

There is a much more of a consensus of who is attractive and who is unattractive than people think. It isn't that subjective.

 

Also a lot of variables cloud our thinking for example when I was in school a friend of mine loved girls who were overweight, "more cushion for the pushin" . I never could understand what he saw in these girls. See the thing was he was himself overweight,but out of school he lost a ton of weight and now his tastes align more with mine.

 

Since he was overweight, he probably though subconsciously that the chubby girls was all he could get so he found them attractive.

 

So on the surface it looked like what my friend found attractive and what I find attractive was very subjective and different, but in reality our tastes were much more similar.

Edited May 23, 2012 by ptp

[carhill]

OP, dating is one thing but marrying and procreating can be completely another. Some people date as a time filler. Some date to meet their future spouse. Some for everything in between. It's really hard to extrapolate from discreet anecdotes what 'equal' really is, IMO. IME, with the women I've dated, had LTR's with and married, I liked them, they liked me and, in some cases, we loved each other for awhile. It wasn't until coming to LS a few years ago that I was introduced to all these 'leagues' and 'equals' and 'settling' and all that stuff. A perusal of my dating and relationship history would find examples all over the map, with regard to 'equals' or 'leagues'. I didn't discriminate by those terms regarding women I got to know and found attractive. YMMV

[udolipixie]

To respond to OP, as someone with experience on both sides of the 80/20 equation, and also experiencing it through friends on both sides of it, it is absolutely true. A vast majority of women chase a tiny percentage of top men, will share those men with other women provided the sharing isn't too obvious and in their face, and this is true no matter what the woman looks like. Women gauge their league by what is the most desirable man who will sleep with them...once or twice , which leads to an absurd overestimation of their worth as a dating or relationship partner.

 

I have had women who earn 1/3 what I earn, come from lesser families than mine, are less attractive physically than me, less educated, etc., condescend and talk down to me while dating as if I don't "measure up" because some pro athlete threw them a couple of f-cks back in the 90s. No joke. The funniest part of it is this is why they are always bringing up the ex talk, they want to get that out there that they "dated":rolleyes: some celebrity. :lmao:

 

Men don't do this. Men are not the celebrity obsessed gender, men are not the BBD upgrader gender, men are not the gender who starts most divorces, men are not the gender who comes to forums like this and posts "why o why are the butterflies gone??" when they decide they want to f-ck their boss and dump their BF. This is a gender issue. It's a given reality that every man must get past. Your experience with short ugly friends getting laid by hot women is either anomalous or there's more to the picture than you are seeing and telling us. I knew two short ugly guys who got laid constantly in college. No idea why until I heard one of them had the nickname "tripod." The other was named "the elephant." All became clear.

Men don't do this.

 

It's not a gender issue it's a people issue as it's a people thing not a gender thing mutually exclusive to gals.

 

From my experiences that includes several gals/guys experiences guys do the same or similar.

 

Guys often overestimate themselves as male hubris and female humility studies have shown that guys tend to overrate themselves in several factors (looks, penis size, intelligence, likeability) while gals tend to underrate themselves.

 

Regarding leagues it seems the meme for many guys is that it comes into play when rating gals or insisting gals date their equals however when it comes to pursusing gals 'there are no leagues'. Seems that guys may gauge their league and disregard the value as gals are less visual is equated to gals are blind or looks are irrevelant for guys and leagues only matter for gals when dating. This mindset tends to be reinforced when a guy demands this & that in a gal that such as 'how can a fat ugly guy get a hot gal' and being told that if she's not a shallow stuckup self-entitled princess she'll see past the exterior. Often his own shallowness of wanting a more attractive partner and demanding the exterior is never questioned much less considered.

 

Guys often do have scenarios of the majority going for a minority as that seems to be an act people generally do when given the opportunity. Such as OkCupid's tidbit of how 2/3 of guys messages go to 1/3 of the most attractive gals while gals have healthier (more varied) message sending.

 

Guys often are beauty obsessed often seeming that guys regard gals as interchangeable body parts that are deprecating assests due to youth/beauty being fading traits. There are industries built on guy's desire for youth/beauty. Studies show that both genders are willing to overlook and negate previous required personality/compatiblity traits when the a factor increases (attractiveness for guys & finances for gals).

 

Guys often BBD upgrade based on whether they have the opportunity the meme of being traded for a yonger model has some validity to it. Studies even suggest that generally a guy's mid life crisis isn't due to his aging but his wife's aging and he pursues actions to attract a younger mate. To sum it up guys don't go through a crisis because they are reach middle age they go a crisis because their wife reach middle age. Some information can be gleamed from Alan Miller and Satoshi Kanazawa. The foreign gals are better often seems to have the meme of BBD upgrade with the talk of getting slimmer younger more attractive gals as it seems it's a people thing to go for the BBD upgrade when given the opportunity.

 

The divorce initation to me isn't a gender issue but a legal issue as I think gals don't tend to initate divorce because they generally have more to lose with unfavorable divorce/custody laws. I highly doubt if the laws were adjusted to be more equal that gals would be the majority filers it'd likely be similiar amounts.

[EasyHeart]

A happy relationship is one in which both people think they "married up".

[Woggle]

I must admit this is not exclusive to women or even relationships.

 

I come from a rough and poor background and my friends and I back in the day had a very close circle. A few of them have made it and now act like they don't even know us anymore or are too good for us while I make an effort to always stay down to earth no matter how successful I become.

 

At the end of the day the people who were there when I was nothing are the people who I can turn to if things get bad while those who thought they were better than where they came from will get a rude awakening if they struggle and their new friends drop them.

 

Both this and people refusing to date equals are the consequences of a status obsessed society.

[dasein]

It's not a gender issue it's a people issue as it's a people thing not a gender thing mutually exclusive to gals.

 

Men are capable of doing it, sure, women do it much more. It is a gender issue. Women chase top percentile men, men chase women who will accept them. Simple mating/dating fact.

 

Guys often overestimate themselves as male hubris and female humility studies have shown that guys tend to overrate themselves in several factors (looks, penis size, intelligence, likeability) while gals tend to underrate themselves.

 

OKcupid study says otherwise. Men rate women accurately on the looks curve, women think 80% of male profiles OLD are below average. :laugh:Cite your studies... or rather don't because if they even exist I have a hunch what types of places they come from.

 

it seems the meme for many guys is that it comes into play when rating gals or insisting gals date their equals however when it comes to pursusing gals 'there are no leagues'.

 

You said that already, it wasn't right when you posted it the first time, and repeating it doesn't make it right now. Men aren't the ones who post or ascribe to arm long criteria/social value lists on forums like this. If a woman is "notfat" most average and above guys stop the analysis there and would at least give her a chance. Not so women.

 

Guys often do have scenarios of the majority going for a minority as that seems to be an act people generally do when given the opportunity. Such as OkCupid's tidbit of how 2/3 of guys messages go to 1/3 of the most attractive gals while gals have healthier (more varied) message sending.

 

That particular stat might have some validity if it excluded one line "hi yer hot" "messages," i.e. the greater young male propensity to troll. Moreover, the difference in female appearance and male on OLD sites is "massive" in more than one way Tons of female fatties on the site, few male because a fat guy has utterly no chance at all OLD, so gives up fast. Even the fat women get OLD attention, just somewhat less of it. Fat men get -nowhere- OLD unless they really scrape the bottom, then there chances are almost nil.

 

Guys often are beauty obsessed often seeming that guys regard gals as interchangeable body parts that are deprecating assests due to youth/beauty being fading traits. There are industries built on guy's desire for youth/beauty. Studies show that both genders are willing to overlook and negate previous required personality/compatiblity traits when the a factor increases (attractiveness for guys & finances for gals).

 

People -are- depreciating assets where physical attractiveness is concerned, no amount of griping about it here or elsewhere will change this plain biological fact until you show me some resort full of hot 90 y.o.s of any gender. Yes, I have seen the studies you mention in the last sentence, and they have no relevance at all to this particular thread topic. In actuality, women want looks AND the whole laundry list including wealth, men want looks and maybe a few other things, but you don't see men backstage throwing themselves at female celebrities like women do nor hoovering up celeb shows, trivia or tabloids. Women suck this stuff up because deep down, every little daddy's princess thinks its her due to be with royalty/millionaire, etc.

 

Guys often BBD upgrade based on whether they have the opportunity the meme of being traded for a yonger model has some validity to it. Studies even suggest that generally a guy's mid life crisis isn't due to his aging but his wife's aging and he pursues actions to attract a younger mate. To sum it up guys don't go through a crisis because they are reach middle age they go a crisis because their wife reach middle age. Some information can be gleamed from Alan Miller and Satoshi Kanazawa. The foreign gals are better often seems to have the meme of BBD upgrade with the talk of getting slimmer younger more attractive gals as it seems it's a people thing to go for the BBD upgrade when given the opportunity.

 

I dread to think what women's studies department such "studies" issued from. Most of the middle age male upgrades I know are due to the wife being an insufferable bitch and spending and nagging the husband to death for decades. Good on those -very few- men with the financial wherewithal to upgrade in this way. They are in a tiny minority of men. Women, on the other hand, with the power of the courts behind them, have infinite upgrade capability with little chance of adverse custody battles.

 

gals don't tend to initate divorce because they generally have more to lose with unfavorable divorce/custody laws.

 

You just won the internet, or at least one certain aspect of it, with the above statement. Congratulations!

[zengirl]

A happy relationship is one in which both people think they "married up".

 

Yep, that's pretty much all there is to it.

 

I don't understand why this thread devolved into the same tired arguments about either gender or weight.

 

The simple point of the OP: People are attracted to the people they're attracted to, they date the people they're willing to date, and those choices are always going to be subjective and individual --- not objective and systemized and assigned. We are not assigned mates, we choose them, and as such, we choose subjectively. People who whine that they can't get girls/guys in the league they perceive themselves to be in are missing the point of how life works, basically.

[udolipixie]

Men are capable of doing it, sure, women do it much more. It is a gender issue. Women chase top percentile men, men chase women who will accept them. Simple mating/dating fact.

It's a people issue as to me who does it more is likely based on experiences and perception. When there's a study, survey, or poll with a sizeable sample state gals tend to do it more then statements like 'women do it much more' are valid. Telling how often your meme is when it comes to negative actions gals do it much more.

 

Perhaps that's your dating/mating fact as from my experience generally gals take the best of what they can get and don't chase guys unless he's extradordinary. Guys chase gals they want and see who'll accept them usually going for the most attractive then scaling with the limit being settling for what he considers average aka cute/slightly above average.

 

OKcupid study says otherwise. Men rate women accurately on the looks curve, women think 80% of male profiles OLD are below average. :laugh:Cite your studies... or rather don't because if they even exist I have a hunch what types of places they come from.

The OKCupid study didn't say otherwise as the OKCupid was about the gender's rating each other not themselves. Gals thinking 80% of guys are below average doesn't disprove that generally gals underrate themselves & gals overrate themselves as the gals aren't rating themselves in that scenario. For citations look up male hubris female humility studies using a scholar or academic/scientific journal search engine and to me Google Scholar doesn't count.

 

You said that already, it wasn't right when you posted it the first time, and repeating it doesn't make it right now. Men aren't the ones who post or ascribe to arm long criteria/social value lists on forums like this. If a woman is "notfat" most average and above guys stop the analysis there and would at least give her a chance. Not so women.

Whether it's right or wrong depends on experiences and from my and other gals/guys experiences it is right that it seems that is the meme. Mine also being that guys do tend to post and ascribe to arm long criteria of physical lists. As well as "not fat" doesn't seem to be the stopping analysis point as many take in age, body shape, and facial features. My gal pals actually had a laugh with some guys complaining that all guy's required was a gal to not be fat and they set up with gals who weren't fat. The result being the guys admitted that age, body shape, and facial features also came into play.

 

That particular stat might have some validity if it excluded one line "hi yer hot" "messages," i.e. the greater young male propensity to troll. Moreover, the difference in female appearance and male on OLD sites is "massive" in more than one way Tons of female fatties on the site, few male because a fat guy has utterly no chance at all OLD, so gives up fast. Even the fat women get OLD attention, just somewhat less of it. Fat men get -nowhere- OLD unless they really scrape the bottom, then there chances are almost nil.

Telling how often your meme is when presented with evidence, studies, or information you dislike or doesn't subscribe to your notions it's trolling. As for fat guys get nowhere & fat gals get attention that's experiences with that being yours/other and mine/others being different.

 

People -are- depreciating assets where physical attractiveness is concerned, no amount of griping about it here or elsewhere will change this plain biological fact until you show me some resort full of hot 90 y.o.s of any gender. Yes, I have seen the studies you mention in the last sentence, and they have no relevance at all to this particular thread topic. In actuality, women want looks AND the whole laundry list including wealth, men want looks and maybe a few other things, but you don't see men backstage throwing themselves at female celebrities like women do nor hoovering up celeb shows, trivia or tabloids. Women suck this stuff up because deep down, every little daddy's princess thinks its her due to be with royalty/millionaire, etc.

Egh nowhere did I state, suggest, or imply whether people are or aren't depreciating assest so I'm a bit unaware of why you're informing that they are. Is it to validate, condone, support, or explain guys regarding gals as depreciating assests based on her youth/beauty?

 

The studies do have a relevance to this thread as it's a response to a statement you made of how 'men don't do this'. Telling how often your meme is when presented with evidence, studies, or information you dislike or doesn't subscribe to your notions it's to dismiss it or claim it has no relevance when it's a response to a statement you made.

 

From my experiences both genders have a laundry list and I do see guys throwing themselves at female celebrities and on radio/blogs/etc posting/quizing about the little intimate details of their favorite actress or porn star.

 

I dread to think what women's studies department such "studies" issued from. Most of the middle age male upgrades I know are due to the wife being an insufferable bitch and spending and nagging the husband to death for decades. Good on those -very few- men with the financial wherewithal to upgrade in this way. They are in a tiny minority of men. Women, on the other hand, with the power of the courts behind them, have infinite upgrade capability with little chance of adverse custody battles.

It wasn't a women's studies department that issued these studies. Telling how often your meme is when presented with something that goes against your notions it's women's studies or feminism.

 

Bit interesting how societally the message seems to be guys get balled & chain with an insufferable nagging bitch who spends all his moneywhile gals are leaving poor decent dedicated husbands and fathers. It's like how if a guy is cheating it's usually deemed the wife drove him to it.

 

From my experiences most guys who upgrade do so for the same reasons gals do- they want to and they can. It's generally about opportunity and seems most will take it when presented. With the guys I've known and other guys/gals known the wife often wasn't some insufferable bitch. She wasn't as young or as attractive as the other gal and my reasoning is that attraction to young/attractive is a natural inclination for guys, many guys dislike committment, and most people generally jump at a BBD when there's no to little consequences.

 

Though with your mindset turnabout often being fair play perhaps it's good on gals who BBD upgrade via divorce as the guy was an insufferable passive aggressive dismissive bastard she endured and suffered drudging herself to have sex with.

[musemaj11]

Love is more like business at the bottom of it.

 

Its simply a trade.

 

If you have looks, you will want someone who can offer looks also or money.

 

If you have money, you will want someone who can offer looks or money also.

 

If you have money and looks, you will want someone who can offer money and looks as well.