MaxNoob Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 There are 2 quotes that come to mind: "You are neither right nor wrong because the crowd disagrees with you. You are right because your data and reasoning are right." - Warren Buffett “Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you are not, in fact, just surrounded by as*holes.” — William Gibson
Author verhrzn Posted May 22, 2012 Author Posted May 22, 2012 There are 2 quotes that come to mind: "You are neither right nor wrong because the crowd disagrees with you. You are right because your data and reasoning are right." - Warren Buffett Ooo, I will take that one. I like that one.
d'Arthez Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 I dunno, sense of justice is a very strong foundation of my personality. It just gets to me when people treat me in a way that is awful based on their "perception" of the truth. Some people are simply ignorant idiots. When you have strenghtened your 'objective' self-perception, you will find it easier to dismiss such people's notions of the truth. Why? Because you'll find it easier to access the factually correct truth. It's one thing to think "All right, I'll stop caring about what others think of me" but when that "perception of truth" begins to leak into behaviors and how people treat you, it gets a little foggy. Like, I can accept people thinking I'm a b*tch. But when they start treating me badly because they think I'm a b*tch is where the whole "truth is subjective" argument falls apart. You would simply remove yourself from the situation. If people refuse to treat you with respect, their words and actions should not matter much to you anymore. Truth is not subjective. We tend to think that it is subjective, because we are corporeal entities (just look at how gender-based debates develop). Because facts often get distorted. Because our understanding is not absolute, but limited. Because our self-awareness is limited.
motive2002 Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 In my months of therapy following my last break-up (I'm in therapy for other general reasons).. my therapist was the one that noticed this shift in attitude in myself... Same kinda thing. I had come more and more to the realization that I didn't have to own all the blame for her dumping me. I had shifted some of it her way, and rightly so! People will act crazy, hurt you, be irresponsible with your feelings and it happens all the time. Doesn't mean you have to accept the blame for it. They're the ones who can't figure this crap out. They're the ones with a problem. You can apologize for a wrong you've done to someone, but never, EVER apologize for being WHO YOU ARE. You have every right to be yourself, and if someone doesn't like it it's their problem.
threebyfate Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 Well, it's more that it irks me when people use subjectivity to cover up their own misdeeds. Like this crazy girl, and my ex-friend, will never own up to the drama they created or the way they maliciously tried to damage me. Because from a "subjective" standpoint, they were justified. I know you can't control other people's actions, but the idea of bad people telling themselves they are good has always really, really bothered me. How people who bullied their classmates to suicide still think of themselves as awesome. How people who lie, or cheat, or manipulate still justify their actions, because "hey the truth is subjective." I just really don't like the moral justification of that thought process... The idea that people can treat others however the heck they want, because from their own selfish/distorted/manipulative standpoint, it made sense, the truth was subjective, etc. Know what I mean? I dunno, sense of justice is a very strong foundation of my personality. It just gets to me when people treat me in a way that is awful based on their "perception" of the truth. Like, in this case, I feel very angry that I became an emotional punching bag for the Crazy Girlfriend's perception of what happened between me and my friend. I mean, do you think it's fair or justified what she did, since truth is subjective and all? It's one thing to think "All right, I'll stop caring about what others think of me" but when that "perception of truth" begins to leak into behaviors and how people treat you, it gets a little foggy. Like, I can accept people thinking I'm a b*tch. But when they start treating me badly because they think I'm a b*tch is where the whole "truth is subjective" argument falls apart.Why funnel all that time, energy and emotion towards resentment? People will believe what they want to believe and there's nothing anyone can do about it. It was a very minor issue where the two events might have taken 1/2 hour of your time. The rest of the 100 hours wasted was in mulling over the issue and harboring resentment. Imagine putting the 99.5 wasted hours towards positive productive actions. Just shrug it off to retarditus and move on.
Author verhrzn Posted May 22, 2012 Author Posted May 22, 2012 You can apologize for a wrong you've done to someone, but never, EVER apologize for being WHO YOU ARE. You have every right to be yourself, and if someone doesn't like it it's their problem. I like that way of thinking, thank you, though... how do you separate out doing a wrong from being who you are? For example, if a friend of mine says something mean to me and I get upset... are they in the wrong for saying it, or am I in the wrong for not "accepting" who they are? Why funnel all that time, energy and emotion towards resentment? People will believe what they want to believe and there's nothing anyone can do about it. It was a very minor issue where the two events might have taken 1/2 hour of your time. The rest of the 100 hours wasted was in mulling over the issue and harboring resentment. Imagine putting the 99.5 wasted hours towards positive productive actions. Just shrug it off to retarditus and move on. Look.... I know it seems minor to you. But it was a very big deal to me. I consider myself an honest, caring, and introspective person. I not only lost a friendship, but had my entire character called into question. I needed to examine it, to ensure that I didn't do something I should apologize for. Even with this revelation, I will never be someone who is told I did hurtful X, Y and Z thing, and like my friend, just shrug it off. That is not who I am. At the end of the day, I want to be able to base my self-perception in reality, that I did my very best to be a good and honest person. In this situation, I did my very best to be straight-forward, and act like a friend (acting in a way that demonstrated the friendship, and my now-ex-friend, mattered to me.) I stayed true to my values, and I'm proud of that.
iris219 Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 But that's kind of what I'm trying to figure out. When should you perhaps judge yourself through someone else's eyes? The answer, to me, is: when you have done something objectively wrong. For example, when you have maliciously hurt another person's feelings. To quote a... well, less sensible but sometimes amusing person," Your actions are bad and you should feel bad!" I'm trying to figure out a way to objectively judge how I treat other people, so that my self-esteem can be built on a strength of character. For example, if I ever answered my (hypothetical) bf's phone like this girl did, I think I should feel ashamed and really examine myself, NOT just flounce around going "I'm awesome! Yay self-esteem!" I just have this very nagging suspicion that The Crazy GF, as I shall refer to her, is one of those people who treats other people abominably (*points to myself*, a complete stranger), and yet considers herself an awesome person. And that is who I DON'T want to be. Why do you think that people who do bad things believe themselves to be awesome? It's more likely that they feel guilt and pain, and actually hate themselves. This seems to be the case with bullies. People who are committed to upholding a strong moral code don’t treat others badly for fun and then justify it, and they don’t feel the need to proclaim “I’m awesome." Hateful, miserable people who deal with deep internal pain are the ones who feel the need to do those things. I don’t believe your friend’s GF thinks she’s awesome. Even if you did all the things they accused you of, stable, content adults do not behave that way. Mature people with happy lives and high self-esteem do not hurt others, even when we might think they deserve it. Most people aren’t completely delusional either. She knows she’s a miserable person and is probably unhappy and insecure most of the time, which is really the only explanation for her behavior.
motive2002 Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 I like that way of thinking, thank you, though... how do you separate out doing a wrong from being who you are? For example, if a friend of mine says something mean to me and I get upset... are they in the wrong for saying it, or am I in the wrong for not "accepting" who they are? You can accept someone for who they are but still have your own boundaries. If someone said something mean to you, you could tell them that it hurt your feelings. If they do it often enough, you can decide for yourself whether it's in your best interest to be friends with that person anymore. I've taken my fair share of abuse in the past from people that were important to me. Most of what gets thrown at you has really nothing to do with you, it's another person projecting their crap all over the place... but I have my limit. I've had to draw my line in the sand for my own sake.
dispatch3d Posted May 22, 2012 Posted May 22, 2012 Yeah getting wrongly accused of all that stuff would piss me off too. There is an argument that says if you could take criticism better this wouldn't be as big a deal. I think it comes down to coming from a place where you are always trying to be respectful with other people. Regardless of whether your mad or not.
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