Utterly Startling Realization, Thought I'd Share

[verhrzn]

Today during my lunch break, I was wandering around the lake, ideally thinking about the situation mentioned in my last thread (What The Hell Was that?)

Now that the situation is "resolved" (I know he hates me, we were never friends, and the whole thing is a big ball of crazy) I feel a lot better, but it's still popping into my head as daydreams in which my ex-friend is staying in front of me and I'm giving him a piece of my mind (while looking amazing and being a best-selling author.)

 

While doing this, I had the most startling realization. In my daydream, I was laying out every piece of evidence to prove how silly his accusations were: how he didn't show much interest in me (so how could I have broken his heart), how we weren't exclusive (I never agreed), how he had contacted me, how I treated him with honesty and respect and gotten nothing but cowardice and crazy back.

 

It just dawned on me how wrong he was. I could prove, that he was wrong. For once-I couldn't blame myself. In all of my past instances with boys, I've blamed myself when things turned out badly: I'm too ugly, I'm too clingy, I didn't communicate well, etc.

 

But that just isn't true here. I am not any of the things he claimed I am. And that is not a matter of interpretation: it's all right there, in black and white.

 

That lead me to the realization that if this guy was wrong about me... maybe my exes were too. That just because an ex says I'm ugly, doesn't make that true. Yeah, maybe it's true to him, just like my ex-friend is convinced I am a cheating, awful stalker (I did get away with the killing of the Jews, though.) But that doesn't actually make it true.

 

I know that seems like such a simple thing to realize, but it really shook me down to my bones. Talk about a freeing, "Eureka!" moment... I don't have to be defined by what my exes, or any other guy I've come across, thinks of me. Because if one person was wrong about me, then it makes sense, so could another.

 

I don't have to be defined by my past. I don't have to be defined by people who were utterly, entirely wrong about me. If my ex-friend thinks I'm the crazy one... he's wrong. And if my ex-bf thinks I'm the ugly one who is entirely to blame for a break-up, well, he's wrong too.

 

Just thought I'd share.

[d'Arthez]

So happy for you .

[Kamille]

 

I know that seems like such a simple thing to realize, but it really shook me down to my bones. Talk about a freeing, "Eureka!" moment... I don't have to be defined by what my exes, or any other guy I've come across, thinks of me. Because if one person was wrong about me, then it makes sense, so could another.

 

I don't have to be defined by my past. I don't have to be defined by people who were utterly, entirely wrong about me. If my ex-friend thinks I'm the crazy one... he's wrong. And if my ex-bf thinks I'm the ugly one who is entirely to blame for a break-up, well, he's wrong too.

 

 

Loud-clapping applause!

 

Glad this clicked for you. It must feel incredibly liberating to free yourself of the negative aspects of your past.

 

Way to go V.

[ThaWholigan]

I don't think I've ever been more happy to read something on this forum than now . I hope you can use this epiphany as a springboard to happiness.

[threebyfate]

It's about time!

[Anela]

I don't think I've ever been more happy to read something on this forum than now .

 

Same here.

 

(This is the type of thing I was talking about in my posts a couple of weeks ago, V. )

[iris219]

A breakthrough moment. I love it!

[Cracker Jack]

Glad you're no longer going to allow your past experiences to hold you back. I know you could do it. Get 'em, girl!

[verhrzn]

The tough part is keeping the realization "going." I went to a seminar on Friday that emphasized that when we learn something new, we're forming new neuron pathways in our brains. That process can be exceptionally daunting, and it's a lot less work for the brain to just go back to the old, reliable pathways.

 

Even now, stray thoughts creep into my brain like "Maybe your ex-friend WAS right, you are crazy, AND less awesome than his new gf" and stuff, and it takes a lot of mental effort to say "No. Stop." It's amazing how, even with the proof laid out in front of me, when my brain slips back into that type of thinking, I have to really force it... I have to go through each piece of the proof and my realization step-by-step.

[d'Arthez]

The tough part is keeping the realization "going." I went to a seminar on Friday that emphasized that when we learn something new, we're forming new neuron pathways in our brains. That process can be exceptionally daunting, and it's a lot less work for the brain to just go back to the old, reliable pathways.

 

Even now, stray thoughts creep into my brain like "Maybe your ex-friend WAS right, you are crazy, AND less awesome than his new gf" and stuff, and it takes a lot of mental effort to say "No. Stop." It's amazing how, even with the proof laid out in front of me, when my brain slips back into that type of thinking, I have to really force it... I have to go through each piece of the proof and my realization step-by-step.

It will take some time to form those new pathways, and make them the dominant pathways. I would suggest to you that you print out your opening post, keep it with you, and read it every now and then. Start applying your newly gained insights to other relationships. You'll come and recognize true friendships (online and in real life), and separate the healthy from the toxic. And: the less you are exposed to toxic people, the easier it will become to strengthen the new pathways.

 

Sometimes we simply struggle to accept seemingly "obvious" things about ourselves or life itself.

 

Keep it up .

[Kamille]

The tough part is keeping the realization "going." I went to a seminar on Friday that emphasized that when we learn something new, we're forming new neuron pathways in our brains. That process can be exceptionally daunting, and it's a lot less work for the brain to just go back to the old, reliable pathways.

 

Even now, stray thoughts creep into my brain like "Maybe your ex-friend WAS right, you are crazy, AND less awesome than his new gf" and stuff, and it takes a lot of mental effort to say "No. Stop." It's amazing how, even with the proof laid out in front of me, when my brain slips back into that type of thinking, I have to really force it... I have to go through each piece of the proof and my realization step-by-step.

 

I love the pathways theory, especially when it comes to changing our basic thought patterns. I'm glad you're open to it. Because knowing this how thought patterns form will get you a long way in changing your thought patterns.

 

Which is why the break through is important. Because you can always come back to it. Once those new "pathways" open, it gets easier and easier to use them. You old thought patterns will never be as strong, for one simple reason: now you know and have experienced feeling differently.

 

So really V, be patient with yourself, but this is exciting!

[verhrzn]

Which is why the break through is important. Because you can always come back to it. Once those new "pathways" open, it gets easier and easier to use them. You old thought patterns will never be as strong, for one simple reason: now you know and have experienced feeling differently.

 

Yeah, but is my feeling different wrong?

 

Haha, see, how easy it is? I'm already subconsciously re-analyzing my realization!

[Kamille]

Yeah, but is my feeling different wrong?

 

Haha, see, how easy it is? I'm already subconsciously re-analyzing my realization!

 

The way I see it is this:

 

Our human interactions are influenced by how we feel about others and ourselves. Example: my interaction with someone will be very different if I feel they can't wait to get rid of me than if I feel like I'm interested in getting to know them (so who cares what they think about me?).

 

So, there is no objective way to verify truth in human interactions.

 

The only basis for judgement on which thought patterns are correct is the following: which one provide me with the richest human relationships?

 

The answer to that one is obvious: the one that makes it easier for you to make friends, meet people you like and generally enjoy being who you are.

 

I know it's a long-winded explanation, but I can try to reformulate it if you want me to go into it. Basically: the best way to verify truth when dealing with tthought patterns and human relationship is through the quality of relationships your thoughts about yourself provide.

[threebyfate]

As an example of what Kamille's talking about:

 

If someone's always crapping on you especially when you have something positive to share, this is where you draw the line and stop interacting with them since they're getting something (sick) from putting you down.

[verhrzn]

The way I see it is this:

 

Our human interactions are influenced by how we feel about others and ourselves. Example: my interaction with someone will be very different if I feel they can't wait to get rid of me than if I feel like I'm interested in getting to know them (so who cares what they think about me?).

 

So, there is no objective way to verify truth in human interactions.

 

The only basis for judgement on which thought patterns are correct is the following: which one provide me with the richest human relationships?

 

The answer to that one is obvious: the one that makes it easier for you to make friends, meet people you like and generally enjoy being who you are.

 

I know it's a long-winded explanation, but I can try to reformulate it if you want me to go into it. Basically: the best way to verify truth when dealing with tthought patterns and human relationship is through the quality of relationships your thoughts about yourself provide.

 

Hmm, I'd be interested to hear what you think about accusations of wrong-doing or character flaws, and how it relates to the idea of no objective way to verify truth.

 

For example, in this situation, I think I can verify truth towards certain facts (who contacted who, what was said in emails, etc.) Where I get caught up, is the idea of truth -> change. For example, if I proven to be "bad," when then I'd prefer to be "good." If I'm proven to be a cheater, I would prefer to change to be faithful.

 

I get a little uneasy about the idea of there being no objective "truth," because that seems like a too-easy way for people to justify their abusive behavior. For example, if there is no objective truth in this situation with my ex-friend, then his gf cannot be judged for how she acted and handled the situation... cause, hey, she was just being authentic to her truth, man.

 

I'll give another example: I have a male friend who, well, isn't a jerk per say. But he can say some very blunt and hurtful things. When I call him on it, he just shrugs, says that's "how he is" and that he's awesome, so I should just get over hurt feelings. His concept of himself is "awesome," and so he doesn't internalize those instances where he isn't awesome. Great for the self-esteem, lousy for the social interactions.

 

I definitely want to feel better about myself, but I don't want to sacrifice self-awareness or an attempt at objectivity. Know what I mean?

[d'Arthez]

I get a little uneasy about the idea of there being no objective "truth," because that seems like a too-easy way for people to justify their abusive behavior. For example, if there is no objective truth in this situation with my ex-friend, then his gf cannot be judged for how she acted and handled the situation... cause, hey, she was just being authentic to her truth, man.

There is an objective truth.

 

As you have discovered in your opening post, the objective truth was what you can factually establish, and not what you are emotionally forced to process (all the horrible things your idiot ex said and has done for instance). For you the emotional pathways were so strong that the logical pathway was not established or so horribly weak that you struggled to accept the fact based objective truth.

 

People actually process "facts" and "feelings" simultaneously. However, that does not mean that our views and beliefs necessarily reflect that. I am sorry, I struggle to explain it more clearly.

[Joaquin]

Today during my lunch break, I was wandering around the lake, ideally thinking about the situation mentioned in my last thread (What The Hell Was that?)

Now that the situation is "resolved" (I know he hates me, we were never friends, and the whole thing is a big ball of crazy) I feel a lot better, but it's still popping into my head as daydreams in which my ex-friend is staying in front of me and I'm giving him a piece of my mind (while looking amazing and being a best-selling author.)

 

While doing this, I had the most startling realization. In my daydream, I was laying out every piece of evidence to prove how silly his accusations were: how he didn't show much interest in me (so how could I have broken his heart), how we weren't exclusive (I never agreed), how he had contacted me, how I treated him with honesty and respect and gotten nothing but cowardice and crazy back.

 

It just dawned on me how wrong he was. I could prove, that he was wrong. For once-I couldn't blame myself. In all of my past instances with boys, I've blamed myself when things turned out badly: I'm too ugly, I'm too clingy, I didn't communicate well, etc.

 

But that just isn't true here. I am not any of the things he claimed I am. And that is not a matter of interpretation: it's all right there, in black and white.

 

That lead me to the realization that if this guy was wrong about me... maybe my exes were too. That just because an ex says I'm ugly, doesn't make that true. Yeah, maybe it's true to him, just like my ex-friend is convinced I am a cheating, awful stalker (I did get away with the killing of the Jews, though.) But that doesn't actually make it true.

 

I know that seems like such a simple thing to realize, but it really shook me down to my bones. Talk about a freeing, "Eureka!" moment... I don't have to be defined by what my exes, or any other guy I've come across, thinks of me. Because if one person was wrong about me, then it makes sense, so could another.

 

I don't have to be defined by my past. I don't have to be defined by people who were utterly, entirely wrong about me. If my ex-friend thinks I'm the crazy one... he's wrong. And if my ex-bf thinks I'm the ugly one who is entirely to blame for a break-up, well, he's wrong too.

 

Just thought I'd share.

 

It's called self esteem - never judge yourself through someone else's eyes (...quote from someone quite sensible...)...

[verhrzn]

It's called self esteem - never judge yourself through someone else's eyes (...quote from someone quite sensible...)...

 

But that's kind of what I'm trying to figure out. When should you perhaps judge yourself through someone else's eyes? The answer, to me, is: when you have done something objectively wrong. For example, when you have maliciously hurt another person's feelings. To quote a... well, less sensible but sometimes amusing person," Your actions are bad and you should feel bad!"

 

I'm trying to figure out a way to objectively judge how I treat other people, so that my self-esteem can be built on a strength of character.

 

For example, if I ever answered my (hypothetical) bf's phone like this girl did, I think I should feel ashamed and really examine myself, NOT just flounce around going "I'm awesome! Yay self-esteem!"

 

I just have this very nagging suspicion that The Crazy GF, as I shall refer to her, is one of those people who treats other people abominably (*points to myself*, a complete stranger), and yet considers herself an awesome person. And that is who I DON'T want to be.

[Joaquin]

But that's kind of what I'm trying to figure out. When should you perhaps judge yourself through someone else's eyes? The answer, to me, is: when you have done something objectively wrong. For example, when you have maliciously hurt another person's feelings. To quote a... well, less sensible but sometimes amusing person," Your actions are bad and you should feel bad!"

 

I'm trying to figure out a way to objectively judge how I treat other people, so that my self-esteem can be built on a strength of character.

 

For example, if I ever answered my (hypothetical) bf's phone like this girl did, I think I should feel ashamed and really examine myself, NOT just flounce around going "I'm awesome! Yay self-esteem!"

 

I just have this very nagging suspicion that The Crazy GF, as I shall refer to her, is one of those people who treats other people abominably (*points to myself*, a complete stranger), and yet considers herself an awesome person. And that is who I DON'T want to be.

 

True. My feeling is that all you can do is to trust your own inner core values to be your compass. Mess with them and your body usually tells you anyway.

 

When it feels you did wrong, you probably did wrong.

 

As far as awesome girl who is actually not so nice....who knows. It's for awesome girl to set her own standards and be her own judge.

[d'Arthez]

 

I just have this very nagging suspicion that The Crazy GF, as I shall refer to her, is one of those people who treats other people abominably (*points to myself*, a complete stranger), and yet considers herself an awesome person. And that is who I DON'T want to be.

I think you are overanalyzing it. I think you have a pretty good understanding of "right and wrong", but you struggled to apply these principles to yourself, whenever things happened to you.

 

You felt that if something bad happened, you were the cause, rather than some external force acting like an idiot (I think a reading of "locus of control" and related concepts could help you perhaps make sense of what you were actually doing). Combine that with an underplaying of your achievements (false modesty), et voila.

 

An awesome person does not think of themselves as an awesome person. But a bad person does put up the facade of being an awesome person.

[Kamille]

V, you're right. Objective truth is important. In this instance, being objective freed you from your own subjective negative thought patterns.

 

I would argue that it is an objective truth that what we believe about ourselves affects how we interact with others. The outcome, better relationships, has also been objectively observed in psychological studies.

 

But everything else you write, about good and bad, etc, I'm not sure I understand. The core of it is this: what others think of you (or you of them) is the purest form of subjectivity. If subjectivity irks you, it is your duty to ignore it.

[JesseJames]

Hey! You go to the lake to not think..... the woods is for thinking. For shame.

[Els]

I AM SO GLAD FOR YOU V!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:bunny::bunny::bunny:

 

Like, seriously. This is the happiest thread I've read for a while.

[threebyfate]

verhrzn, while there maybe archetypal angels and demons amongst mankind, most people have both sides to their character, residing in the grey area the majority of time. Worry less about being good or being perceived as good and worry more about being true to yourself. Being true to yourself also means acceptance within reason.

 

As far as truth and objective truth, doesn't work too well with human beings since perception of truth will be dominant.

[verhrzn]

But everything else you write, about good and bad, etc, I'm not sure I understand. The core of it is this: what others think of you (or you of them) is the purest form of subjectivity. If subjectivity irks you, it is your duty to ignore it.

 

Well, it's more that it irks me when people use subjectivity to cover up their own misdeeds.

 

Like this crazy girl, and my ex-friend, will never own up to the drama they created or the way they maliciously tried to damage me. Because from a "subjective" standpoint, they were justified.

 

I know you can't control other people's actions, but the idea of bad people telling themselves they are good has always really, really bothered me. How people who bullied their classmates to suicide still think of themselves as awesome. How people who lie, or cheat, or manipulate still justify their actions, because "hey the truth is subjective."

 

I just really don't like the moral justification of that thought process... The idea that people can treat others however the heck they want, because from their own selfish/distorted/manipulative standpoint, it made sense, the truth was subjective, etc. Know what I mean?

 

I dunno, sense of justice is a very strong foundation of my personality. It just gets to me when people treat me in a way that is awful based on their "perception" of the truth.

 

Like, in this case, I feel very angry that I became an emotional punching bag for the Crazy Girlfriend's perception of what happened between me and my friend. I mean, do you think it's fair or justified what she did, since truth is subjective and all?

 

It's one thing to think "All right, I'll stop caring about what others think of me" but when that "perception of truth" begins to leak into behaviors and how people treat you, it gets a little foggy. Like, I can accept people thinking I'm a b*tch. But when they start treating me badly because they think I'm a b*tch is where the whole "truth is subjective" argument falls apart.