grkBoy Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 well i met several guys over the past few years who insist on wanting a woman who has a career, in fact this preference seems to override certain other aspects such as physical looks or body. are these guys the norm or they are like, not common? i admit most of them are in unstable positions in life (still in college, some just graduated) but they are good looking (at least to me) and one has a high salary for his age (mid 20s). they arent the moocher type or at least i dont think so. well i was just thinking..if hes making a lot..and he really likes her..shes hot and pretty..she just does not want to further her career (as a waitress or a gas pump attendant) or education nor wants to learn stuff like driving or cooking..is that bad? are looks not enough to compensate for those other things? i was forced to do a lot of things in life like college and stuff, plus when i was 15 the first guy i dated let me pay for all our dates, or he paid for his while i watched him eat and i was hungry. that was a riveting moment in life wherein i said to myself that i am not going to depend on someone or anyone or else i will go hungry...lol. Our parents have raised us now to want women with brains, a nice body, and a future. We've been pushed now to look down on the girl with a high school diploma and no other goal in life but to marry and be a housewife/mom. I don't fully agree with that...but even my father endlessly warned my brother and I about "women who are looking for some dummy to take care of them" I tell guys who want the mommy/housewife to marry then the woman who wants it...not expect a career woman to give up her job and life to just play house. However, with the economy and cost of living being what it is now, many guys prefer the woman who can work and bring home part of the income...even if it means they never have a family. 2
Oxy Moronovich Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 hmmm, sources? I certainly work just as much as the men in the same position. I find that who works longer hours it totally dependent on the individual than their gender. I'm not overlooking it, I just know that this isn't true for all jobs or all men. I work in a male-dominated industry and I know from vast years of experience that not all men work more than 40 hours a week and not all jobs are stressful. And actually, it's just the opposite in many cases. Women often feel like they have more to prove, and therefore take on more work and work longer hours just to show they can do more than men, and to show that they do not allow the fact that they are mothers to interfere with their work. Here you go, sweethearts: Throughout the world, men spend more time on market work, while women spend more time on homework. New study: Men work as much as women do. - Slate Magazine
maybealone Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 Here you go, sweethearts: New study: Men work as much as women do. - Slate Magazine Adding these up, men work an average of 7.9 hours per day, while women work an average of—drum roll, please—7.9 hours per day.I'm not sure how that translates into men working "significantly longer" hours.
mesmerized Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 Here you go, sweethearts: New study: Men work as much as women do. - Slate Magazine LOL, maybe you should read your own article? The article says as a whole (taking SAHMs into account) what is the average work women and men do at home and at work. It specifically mentions that this is NOT for working women vs their comparable men, weak study if you ask me. Quote from your article: Many women with demanding careers tell me that it is women working full-time in the market, not women overall, who work more than comparable men. This study cannot settle that question because it does not report work time separately for people with and without market jobs.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 It's funny how DY and Negative Nancy say they both wanna be a stay-at-home moms. Both of them whine about men a CRAPLOAD yet both want men to support them. Just goes to show you the women who criticize men the most are the ones in need of them the most. Women can say they wanna be stay-at-home moms because they find the corporate world too stressful, but do they not realize men feel the same way? Few people in life get the career they like. Men deal with more stress because we work longer hours and a heavier workload. Yet we can't fall back on our gender and have someone else pay our way through. XXOO A lot of men feel the same way, and that is where some of the outrage comes from. Why is work more "optional" for women in society? My H has a job that is fairly rewarding, but he'd quit it in a NY minute to pursue his personal interests fulltime if he won the lottery. He wouldn't miss it. What both of you don't get is that I think the option for men to be Stay At Home Dads is great! If a father wants to be home with his children and his wife wants to expand her career, that's wonderful! I like the fact that there is more of an option now then ever for there to be SAHDs. All I said is that I don't find much satisfaction in having a "career" and I like taking care of a home and family. So I really don't get either one of your responses XXOO and Oxy. And I think it's utterly ridiculous for you Oxy to claim that women simply fall back on men to pay their way. Since Feminism, what we see are more and more women becoming educated and getting corporate jobs and enjoying their jobs. The reason women had to relay on their husbands for money was because that was the way it was. Women were not afforded the respect to be treated as equals in the workplace. Clearly things are different now and that's a good thing. And what we see is more women working full time, on top of having children and taking care of the majority of the house work. And if a woman was a stay at home Mom, that doens't mean she is sponging off her husband. It means they are a team with seperate goals and purposes but which both contribute to the family. It is not easy being home all day with little ones and caring for a family anymore then it's easy to get up everyday and go into work. 1
Els Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 A lot of men feel the same way, and that is where some of the outrage comes from. Why is work more "optional" for women in society? I guess some traditions still persist in society and people's mindsets. For example, the default childcarer is often still considered to be the woman - it's generally considered more acceptable for a man to be so engrossed in his career that he doesn't spend much time with the children, compared to for women. Things are fortunately changing though.
d'Arthez Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 I guess some traditions still persist in society and people's mindsets. For example, the default childcarer is often still considered to be the woman - it's generally considered more acceptable for a man to be so engrossed in his career that he doesn't spend much time with the children, compared to for women. Things are fortunately changing though. Thankfully yes! If I ever have kids, I don't want to be the stranger that pays all the bills. I'd actually like to be actively involved in their lives, rather than a bystander. If it is financially or practically possible (yay for working from home!), I know what my preference would be. 1
Oxy Moronovich Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 I'm not sure how that translates into men working "significantly longer" hours. LOL, maybe you should read your own article? The article says as a whole (taking SAHMs into account) what is the average work women and men do at home and at work. It specifically mentions that this is NOT for working women vs their comparable men, weak study if you ask me. Quote from your article: Fine. Here are better sources: Among all workers surveyed in 2002, more than 17 percent of men overworked compared with nearly 7 percent of women. (The data come from the Current Population Survey, which is a monthly survey of about 50,000 households conducted by the U.S. Census Bureau for the Bureau of Labor Statistics.) The researchers found 69 percent of men worked overtime compared with 42 percent of women. And women who work overtime spend on average about five additional hours at work compared with men's seven extra hours. Source: More dads working long hours, study confirms - Health - Men's health - msnbc.com Here's an interesting article that states: Twice as many women as men want to cut back on work hours, even at the sacrifice of pay, according to a new analysis of labor statistics. Source: Women Want Shorter Work Days | LiveScience
Sanman Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 Are you serious? I went to work with no degree and haven't had worked in 4.5 years and found a job in a week. Only $20 an hour doing basically what I did as a stay at home mom -actually less- "household manager" but I did, and at least I get to bring my child with me. My ex is in a higher income bracket but last year he decided he was bored with his job, called a few people, and had another 180K job offer pretty much immediately. (I don't want to give too many details, but he is in the tech field.) I do not doubt that there's a lot of problems and people have trouble finding work... especially in my bracket... but there are plenty of fields that have plenty of job opportunities still available, especially in the major markets. It's a little scary out there, but by no means a desert. I am serious. However, the stories you provide are anecdotal. I have friends in tech (including my long-time best friend and business partner) and it is booming right now. Bean's example is pretty good as well. However, New York State, NYC, and the Federal government all froze hiring for close to a year in 2009. Had Bean's husband been in finance and let go, she would not have been able to just walk into a job due to these freezes. While such jobs are a pretty good hedge against re-entering the job market, issues such freezes, changes in technology that may render skills obsolete, and other factors can render those hedges null. The bottom line is that no hedge has same security as someone already with a job pulling in a paycheck.
Sanman Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 I know a handful of SAHDs, in upper-middle class communities. In progressive areas, it is very accepted. I know a lot of SAHMs, too. What I don't know is anyone who intends to stay home forever, or who considers work more optional for them than their partner. Providing for the family is ultimately the responsibility of both parents, even if the couple decides to have one parent stay home for a while. That's the climate on the playgrounds these days. Everyone has a field they are planning to get back into, and when job losses occur, often the SAHP gets a job while the other is on unemployment and looking for a new job. Thank you. The funny part about this attitude is that even women with high incomes have these preferences and the bottom line is that it is just not possible. I was talking to my gf and among her co-workers, I am the only male SO that also pulls in a six figure salary. Most of the men make less and would have to be the SAHD in a single income situation. Even with us, my gf may outearn me in the long term depending on who gets promoted/what position. Bottom line is that while there may be complaints out there, women have outpaces men in graduate school and higher paying careers. There just are not as many men that can bring home enough bacon to a woman to leave her job. There are more men that don't want to do so because they do not want to be the absentee fathers chained to a desk that they grew up with.
xxoo Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 All I said is that I don't find much satisfaction in having a "career" and I like taking care of a home and family. So I really don't get either one of your responses XXOO and Oxy. I'm saying you aren't odd in that regard. A lot of people feel the same, but get up and go to work each day because they have to support their kids.
FitChick Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 What happens if one of the high-flyers gets a big promotion and has to move? The other person is invested in his or her big career, too. Do they divorce? If the spouse has a run-of-the-mill job or no job, it's much easier to relocate.
Sanman Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 What happens if one of the high-flyers gets a big promotion and has to move? The other person is invested in his or her big career, too. Do they divorce? If the spouse has a run-of-the-mill job or no job, it's much easier to relocate. It depends on the jobs and how high-flying one is. If the two are in related fields, you can negotiate for both jobs. If not, you can move and have one look for a job, live in two cities for a while, or just quit and look for a new job. High pay does not always mean it is hard to relocate. Most doctors, nurses, and other healthcare professionals can find a job in any city. Professors and administrators routinely get spouses job offers with the same university as well (I went to a school with married professors that did this). There are lawyers that can do the same.
Yamaha Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 (edited) Average annual income in United States is around 47,000 •Top 0.12% of people in US earn $1,600,000/year or more •Top 1.15% of people in US earn $250,000/year or more •Top 3% of people in US earn $200,000/year or more •Top 5% of people in US earn $166,000/year or more •Top 10% of people in US earn $118,000/year or more •Top 15% of people in US earn $100,000/year or more •Top 20% of people in US earn $91,000/year or more •Top 25% of people in US earn $80,000/year or more •Top 35% of people in US earn $65,000/year or more 50 percent of population live on $46,000 or less a year. Education Average Gross Salary Less Than High School $52,429 High School $49,377 Some College $57,598 Bachelors Degree $70,341 Masters Degree $90,319 Doctorate Degree $127,682 Source Average Salary Survey 2011/2012 | Salary Search Edited May 18, 2012 by Yamaha 1
mtber75 Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 Well yes! I require a woman with a career or stable job for dating/marriage, unless under extreme circumstances like if she have kids in which I avoid. I'm don't want to date/marry a woman who have a mindset of last century. In that women are not suppose to work hard and just take care of the household. Surprisingly a lot of women today still thinks like this...Now a days, women can pretty much do whatever men can do. It also makes financial sense that a woman brings home piece of the bacon! 1
FitChick Posted May 18, 2012 Posted May 18, 2012 In that women are not suppose to work hard and just take care of the household. Surprisingly a lot of women today still thinks like this...Now a days, women can pretty much do whatever men can do. It also makes financial sense that a woman brings home piece of the bacon! Then the men had better clean the pan afterwards. 1
DjinnAgain Posted May 19, 2012 Posted May 19, 2012 Average annual income in United States is around 47,000 •Top 0.12% of people in US earn $1,600,000/year or more •Top 1.15% of people in US earn $250,000/year or more •Top 3% of people in US earn $200,000/year or more •Top 5% of people in US earn $166,000/year or more •Top 10% of people in US earn $118,000/year or more •Top 15% of people in US earn $100,000/year or more •Top 20% of people in US earn $91,000/year or more •Top 25% of people in US earn $80,000/year or more •Top 35% of people in US earn $65,000/year or more 50 percent of population live on $46,000 or less a year. Education Average Gross Salary Less Than High School $52,429 High School $49,377 Some College $57,598 Bachelors Degree $70,341 Masters Degree $90,319 Doctorate Degree $127,682 Source Average Salary Survey 2011/2012 | Salary Search Is that really right? I guess I've only dated people in the top 5% and my friends and their husbands live in the top 5%. That seems low. Guess I am average though!
Els Posted May 19, 2012 Posted May 19, 2012 What happens if one of the high-flyers gets a big promotion and has to move? The other person is invested in his or her big career, too. Do they divorce? If the spouse has a run-of-the-mill job or no job, it's much easier to relocate. I think this has actually been a valid and huge issue for many couples, especially those who don't have the luxury of being in similar fields as Sanman mentioned. In such cases, invariably one spouse will have to be the one willing to take a setback to his/her career, and give up his/her job to start afresh where the other partner is going, or they will have to do an LDR. So I do think there is some benefit to a couple having one partner who is more focused on career and one who is less. That also solves the issue of who is going to do the childcare after getting children, unless they intend to put the kid in daycare from Year 1. It's great that some men want women with high-flying careers, but those men also need to understand they can't have it both ways. If they also want their spouse to do the traditional thing - the bulk of the housework and childcare, for example, or being the one to give up their job should a relocation be necessary - they should decide which is more important to them. 1
maybealone Posted May 19, 2012 Posted May 19, 2012 Fine. Here are better sources: Source: More dads working long hours, study confirms - Health - Men's health - msnbc.com Here's an interesting article that states: Source: Women Want Shorter Work Days | LiveScience The problem with the first article is that there is no mention of whether or not these men are married -- except for the headline. Lots of us work a lot longer hours when we are young and struggling. That has nothing to do with how we are when we are older and married. And it still doesn't specify "significantly longer" hours. The problem with the second article is that it doesn't specify how many hours each are working. Maybe more women want to work fewer hours because they are, on average, working longer hours than men. I can't tell by the contents of this article.
Oxy Moronovich Posted May 19, 2012 Posted May 19, 2012 The problem with the first article is that there is no mention of whether or not these men are married -- except for the headline. Lots of us work a lot longer hours when we are young and struggling. That has nothing to do with how we are when we are older and married. And it still doesn't specify "significantly longer" hours. The problem with the second article is that it doesn't specify how many hours each are working. Maybe more women want to work fewer hours because they are, on average, working longer hours than men. I can't tell by the contents of this article. Here's another source: Americans Now Think A 40-Hour Work Week Is "Part Time" - Business Insider Between 2006-2008: 37.9% of professional men ; 22.9% of middle income men; and 8.7% of low income men worked over 50 hours a week. This is compared to 14.4% professional; 8.3% middle income; 3.9% of low income women who worked over 50 hours a week. Unlike the other articles, this does state how many hours both genders work. Plus, I don't see what being married has to do with anything. The average age of marriage in the U.S. is 25 for women and 27 for men. I am 27. I don't think married guys my age work more than I do. The Best Age For Marriage Is Climbing - WebMD
Sanman Posted May 19, 2012 Posted May 19, 2012 Is that really right? I guess I've only dated people in the top 5% and my friends and their husbands live in the top 5%. That seems low. Guess I am average though! The 2010 census data lists $49,500 as the average household income, not individual income. If the above number are correct or close, you are talking about the top 2.5% or less of men as approximately half of those earners are women and this may include households with such an income. Clearly that creates a lot of competition for women who want ot stay at home.
Rahstyles Posted May 19, 2012 Posted May 19, 2012 No not really.. I dont want a butch girl... I mean if she has a job she has a job... But if shes a stay at home mom.. Thats perfectly fine for me
xxoo Posted May 19, 2012 Posted May 19, 2012 The 2010 census data lists $49,500 as the average household income, not individual income. If the above number are correct or close, you are talking about the top 2.5% or less of men as approximately half of those earners are women and this may include households with such an income. Clearly that creates a lot of competition for women who want ot stay at home. Many families with a SAHP have very average incomes. In most suburbs, you don't need to make 6 figures to support a family. One earner making 50k is doable, living frugally. Some families choose to do without stuff to have more time, at least while the kids are young. But once the kids are in school, the SAHP going back to work makes a lot of financial sense.
Sanman Posted May 19, 2012 Posted May 19, 2012 Many families with a SAHP have very average incomes. In most suburbs, you don't need to make 6 figures to support a family. One earner making 50k is doable, living frugally. Some families choose to do without stuff to have more time, at least while the kids are young. But once the kids are in school, the SAHP going back to work makes a lot of financial sense. Well, whether it is doable depends on a lot of things. If you are close to any major city, the average household income will be significantly higher than $50k (Anywhere between ~70-90K usually). Also, what kind of education did you have before being a SAHP parent? My gf and I make a lot of money combined, but we will be paying off 2-3 mortgages if you include our combined student loans. Even with $100k in salary, that can get rough if you are paying 30-40k in just loans and mortgage. While that seems like a a lot, it is what would be on your head now if you chose to go to a private college.
Els Posted May 19, 2012 Posted May 19, 2012 Well, whether it is doable depends on a lot of things. If you are close to any major city, the average household income will be significantly higher than $50k (Anywhere between ~70-90K usually). Also, what kind of education did you have before being a SAHP parent? My gf and I make a lot of money combined, but we will be paying off 2-3 mortgages if you include our combined student loans. Even with $100k in salary, that can get rough if you are paying 30-40k in just loans and mortgage. While that seems like a a lot, it is what would be on your head now if you chose to go to a private college. Whether or not to have one partner become a SAHP depends on a lot of factors, really. I think for many SAHPs, the major deciding factor is one of those below: 1) How important and preferable is it for them to stay at home all day with the children vs going out and making a career for themselves? 2) If they work, how much will they make compared to the cost of trusted daycare in their area, after taking away necessary deductions (tax, work-based expenditure, transport, etc)? 3) What does their spouse think about either of the above, and what other alternatives might they have (scale back and work from home, etc)? Of course, if a young couple has significant loans to pay back, they should be thinking waaaay more than twice about their decision to start a family. Children are a necessary expenditure, and if the couple feels that they cannot comfortably support a child given all of the above factors, it would be a good idea to wait.
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