Vacation love affair

May 20, 2012

We all have our opinion's about morality, and we all lie and deceive at one time or another. This holier than thou sense of absolutism baffles me. Human nature is very complex and seldom black and white. I bet every poster here, myself included, has a sinful secret that they are keeping, so I will not cast the first stone.

I concur. I subscribe to a Biblical outlook of human behavior which is opposed to many of the evolutionary and biological beliefs posted here and I typically avoid getting into that subject matter because I've learned it goes effectively no where when I've had these debates in the past, and more importantly it has little to do with what people are posting on the threads regarding their issues.

Standtall is correct. We all have secrets. We all have a dark side. We are all liars at times in our lives. Part of the Biblical Worldview is realizing and recognizing what you truly are.

This of course never excuses the affairs or bad moral behavior in any way, but the fact is I can examine my own depraved mind / heart at times and realize that God sees me as no better. This is why Christ said to the Pharisees, that if you've lusted after a woman, you've still committed adultery in your heart (i.e. just because you haven't done it doesn't mean God doesn't recognize your desire to do so).

I realize that we are all subject to doing things that are vastly against our beliefs and our values. Okay, enough of the sermon. Now you at least know where I'm coming from if you hadn't figured it out previously. Please forgive the TJ moment.

May 20, 2012

Belle, you can't use your family as a cop out. I know you think that makes you sound righteous but trust me nobody is buying it. For a long time you didn't care about your family; every time you banged the other men you weren't thinking about your family; every time you exposed your H to an STD you weren't thinking about your family; every time you made fools out of your family you weren't thinking about them; every time your chose the other men over your family you weren't thinking about them.

The reason you don't want to tell is because you are afraid of the negative repercussions that you may feel after being honest. You are still just thinking about yourself and nothing has changed. You are in self-presevation mode and you will do anything to convince yourself that lying is the best road. You are even convincing yourself that your lying is making you a martyr for your family.

You are still just thinking about yourself and you have long painful road ahead of you.

She's not accountable to anyone other than God, herself and her family in this situation. She made a mistake. She had her reasons. She's attempting to rectify it. Obviously she's afraid of the negative repercussions of telling her spouse, who wouldn't be? She'll work through the issue as she sees best.

May 20, 2012

No one keeps a sinful secret from God. He knows if your lips aren't moving or your tongue is silent.

No doubt, but that is between her and GOD and it is not our place to judge her.

May 20, 2012

Vlove, I'm truly sorry for your predicament, and for the brouhaha that your post has started among the posters. I hope that you have read each posters' advice carefully and decide if and how you approach your marriage Like Blue knight has said, everybody lies. Where we differ is his and other posters assertions, that a truly good, caring, and open marriage can be built on lies and continuing deceit. You will have noticed that those who lie and deceive, must continue to do so, in order that they not be discovered, or face the just consequences of their bad behavior. They will say anything, make up mythic statistics,, portray their deceit as being somehow noble, even use the their new-found "concern", for their spouses feelings (they didn't feel so loving, during their affair) as methods of evading responsibility, when they could avoid all of this by simply telling the truth. I've decided that no useful purpose is served by re-hashing this debate further and hope the you have the wisdom to see dishonesty as it truly is. Instead I would re-interate that rather than believe what you have read here. Do your own research and find out what professional marriage counselors on numerous websites have to say on the subject of disclosure . I wish you well, and hope that even amongst the b*ll, you can find the truth.

May 21, 2012

how by continuing to lie and cheat her family out of an honest life? Look you can keep saying that she is making progress but for years I have seen people on these boards just like her, that make the same mistakes and eventually encounter the same problems. She is no different

Okay, and if she fails who has to deal with it? She, her husband and her kids will. If at that time she realizes that she didn't have it in her, she may have to approach this differently if she intends on staying in her marriage.

Talk is cheap. Actions are what count. By all that Belle has posted and what she's discussed with me leads me to believe she's at least giving it a valid attempt. That counts for something when you hold it up to those who get themselves into affairs and then don't have the strength to get themselves out.

May 21, 2012

I really don't believe it's strength that empowers a WS to get out of an affair, I believe it's FEAR that motivates the exit out of an affair.

FEAR of being discovered.

FEAR of OM/OW becoming too demanding.

FEAR of consequences.

May 21, 2012

OP is gone - why are we continuing this thread?

May 21, 2012

OP is gone - why are we continuing this thread?

I agree drifter. Hope Vlove worked things out......

May 21, 2012

Its been less than a week... Maybe she doesn't hang at LS as much as some of us do...

May 22, 2012

Vlove, just because you had this fling, does not mean you will repeat the behavior. If you no longer love your H then most certainly D him, but if you believe that you can have a fulfilling life with him then he needs to be the ONE person you turn to. You have to allow him to be and reconnect with him.

This can never happen if she continues 2 deceive him.

I think you regret what happened and that you don't want to do it again. If I had turned to this forum rather than a close male "friend", I wouldn't have had the second A.

This forum? Hm... I wonder what will happen 2 your "chooser" when you come 2 the realization that all you need 2 do is 2 not be honest about your anonymous story 2 an anonymous forum? When will the next close male friend come along?

You can change. I think you really want to.....

Change without truthfulness is simply playing games and acting. It's not sincere because it's not real.

-ol' 2long

May 22, 2012

Change without truthfulness is simply playing games and acting. It's not sincere because it's not real.

-ol' 2long

Quoted for truth. I know we've gone around and around with this topic of morality and whatnot, but doesn't it just boil down to a simple fact: Withholding information is lying. Lying is not good. I would like to say that I understand TBK's post about most of us lying, however I would like to refute that. Not everyone goes through their life hiding from the truth and concealing information, especially from the ones we love (or supposed to love) the most. I'd like to think that most people live their lives this way. Just because others do it and condone it certainly doesn't make it right. Is that religious? I don't think so. I think its good humanity. Do people do it because they "fear" God? I don't think so. I think they tell the truth because its the right thing to do. Can you be a deist and tell the truth? Absolutely! Why not? From what I know, being a deist means you have a belief in a supreme being...just that it doesn't influence the world. Well, that sounds a whole lot like "free will" in a typical Christian world.

May 22, 2012

I don't disagree that coming clean is the best way, but each person must do it when and if the timing is right. Belle for instance may come to terms with telling her husband six months or six years from now. Or maybe never. Maybe she'll never reveal it and still turn her situation around at home. It happens all the time.

Perhaps it works for a time. Perhaps it works for years. But it requires that the BS *never* learn the truth. As someone who's WW thought it was entirely up 2 her whether and when she told me about her affair, I can tell you that discovering it myself - after it had ended, doesn't matter one bit - made it far harder 2 recover from than if she had confessed it of her own volition. What if I had found out 20 years later? That happens. The WS simply doesn't get the control over the si2ation that they think they have.

My issue with all this focus on "lying" comes down to this. We are all liars. Nobody tells the absolute truth . . . even on a daily basis. That's actually a strongly Biblical position for those who care.

Nonsense. And no, I don't care even if it's a "strongly biblical position" - whatever that means.

Trust me. I can stop 9 out of 10 people for a traffic violation and the most innocuous and ordinary average decent tax paying citizen will go into self-preservation mode as soon as I begin conversing with them. They will waste no time lying to me. I've had little old ladies do it. I'm talking about someone's grandmother! It's in our DNA to self-preserve and avoid harm, embarrassment, or even paying for a traffic ticket.

I must be that one out of 10, then. When I got pulled over for going 67 in a 55 zone, the officer asked me why I was speeding. Really?? I told him the truth "Officer, I can't give you a reason, because I don't have one." I didn't even mention the fact that the speed limit was 65 when I last drove on that road months prior, because so what? I was speeding. It was that simple. What's 2 explain?

This is why children do it from a very early age. Nobody teaches a child to lie. They simply know from the time they are old enough to walk that lying is a way to avoid trouble and angry parents. It's innately in us.

No, the angry parents teach their children 2 lie because they don't teach them the benefits of truthfulness and honesty. And "adults" brought up 2 believe that lying will save them from anything will lie 2 their partners. Doesn't mean that healthy individuals will do it, though. So no, I don't buy the "Everybody lies" generalization.

-ol' 2long

May 22, 2012

but doesn't it just boil down to a simple fact: Withholding information is lying. Lying is not good.

Here comes the absolutism again. There are a lot of people in this world that would disagree with both of those statements...myself included.

1. Withholding information can be deceiving, but is not lying. Just because I do not answer an incriminating question, or volunteer damaging information, that does not make me a liar. Most legal systems worldwide recognize this.

2. Lying can be okay depending on the situation. For example..lying to spare someones feelings...the ever popular " Do I look fat in these pants", yes, Tommy that drawing is the best dinosaur, that is the cutest baby I ever saw. Lying to misdirect hostile forces/people.....hiding people during war, misdirection of the enemy. Here are a few others..telling a critically ill person they are going to be okay, lying to protect a co worker or loved one, lying to a mentally ill person if it benefits them.

Heck I will assert that anyone that says lying is wrong under any situation is telling a lie themselves. Life is not so black and white, and every person's affair is not black and white. In the OP's case it may or may not be. The issue here is the intent, and in her case that depends upon what she wants to do in the future, and only she can answer that.

Edited May 22, 2012 by standtall

May 22, 2012

Then, I am glad I'm not part of your "a lot of people" in this world.

1. Withholding information is lying by omission. Besides, is this a court case where you're standing in front of a jury or is it talking honestly and openly to the one's you supposedly love? While Bill maybe didn't have "sexual relations with that woman", the truth is he got a bj in the Oval Office. Maybe he didn't have sexual intercourse as defined by the law, but he certainly f'd up.

2. I'll go on record here: Yes, honey those pants are not flattering on you. She'd much rather hear the truth from me than to look "bad" in public. As for the dinosaur drawing, my kids are the best artists in my eyes, so their drawings to me ARE the best. Lying to misdirect hostile forces...hmmm...I find it extremely ironic that you posted that in this, the Infidelity forum, of all places.

The OP was not "happy" in her marriage so she chose to go on vacation with her friend to Vegas (of all places). If you don't see intent there or the black and white of the affair, then I can't help ya. Maybe lying to oneself is what's going on and that simply leads to lying to others.

May 22, 2012

This forum? Hm... I wonder what will happen 2 your "chooser" when you come 2 the realization that all you need 2 do is 2 not be honest about your anonymous story 2 an anonymous forum? When will the next close male friend comes along.

-ol' 2long

I am confident that I can keep my skirt on, thanks.

I am still working in IC and learning how I got myself in such a mess. My H and I are much more open about our needs and on the importance of rebuilding. We are no longer complacent. I'm fortunate that he is willing to work on reconnecting.

I know him better than anyone here. Besides our personality differences (H introvert, me extrovert) and differences in our libidos, he is very much like me. He would never want to hurt me and if he had an A and ended it and loves only me, he wouldn't reveal.

Everyday I see improvement in our M. You can say our M is a sham or a lie until you're blue in the face. We are happier than we've been in years.

We think about each other throughout the day and share our thoughts. I look forward to him coming home. We actual kiss at night, more than just on the cheek.

I know it's not a conventional, Christian M for most posters here, but I know our situation.

I have no worries that another "chooser" will take me or I will choose another man. If I wanted to continue having As, I would do as the OP has done and not hang around.

Again we are beating a dead horse here. Let god decide my "fate".

The world is ending this year, right?

Edited May 22, 2012 by Bellechica

May 22, 2012

Then, I am glad I'm not part of your "a lot of people" in this world.

I'm glad you're not either.

The issue that was addressed was the absolutism of certain statements. Please let me know where the rules about lying are since you seem to be defining lying as much as the late Potter Stewart said " I'll know it when I see it" when it came to obscenity. In your case you must know it when you hear it. Unfortunately, the rules you appear to be using don't apply to all people or the rule of law which applies to virtually everyone. It appears that a lot of the posters here that are so absolute of the truth are victims of an affair. It makes me wonder about objectivity.

Let's agree to disagree on the definition of lying and when it is okay to do so. You give advise to the OP the way you want to, and I'll will offer mine. I don't need to be lectured about morality.

Edited May 22, 2012 by standtall

May 22, 2012

I really thought that this thread was done, considering that the OP hasn't been on here in over a week. Maybe she was turned off by the violent differences of opinion, but I'm hoping that she has received the information that she sought. The chief difference is obvious. Those that advocate continued deceit will use up pages and pages of excuses, evasions, false statistics, supposed Biblical references (I'm no Christian, but I've read the Bible and they simply don't exist), dubious quotes, bogus examples, new age babel, and quite literally any and everything to avoid honesty. Those that advocate the truth only need to say so. The choice couldn't be clearer. BTW honesty isn't a matter of black and white, it's a matter of right and wrong. Which side are you on?

May 22, 2012

. The chief difference is obvious. Those that advocate continued deceit will use up pages and pages of excuses, evasions, false statistics, supposed Biblical references (I'm no Christian, but I've read the Bible and they simply don't exist), dubious quotes, bogus examples, new age babel, and quite literally any and everything to avoid honesty. Those that advocate the truth only need to say so. The choice couldn't be clearer. BTW honesty isn't a matter of black and white, it's a matter of right and wrong. Which side are you on?

Gee, dubious quotes, bogus examples, and new age what?. How so? because you don't agree? Counter them please...if you can. They are valid situations and exceptions to the the the right and wrong rules that are unique to each person. This forum has a whole chorus of voices, and if they were all the same, then it wouldn't be much of a support forum now would it? We all have our opinions..mine is no better than yours.

BTW, nice try with the "your for good or for evil". I'm not for either side as you define right and wrong. You are not my lord and master, so stop judging me.

Edited May 22, 2012 by standtall

May 22, 2012

Gee, dubious quotes, bogus examples, and new age what?. How so? because you don't agree? Counter them please...if you can. They are valid situations and exceptions to the the the right and wrong rules that are unique to each person. This forum has a whole chorus of voices, and if they were all the same, then it wouldn't be much of a support forum now would it? We all have our opinions..mine is no better than yours.

BTW, nice try with the "your for good or for evil". I'm not for either side as you define right and wrong. You are not my lord and master, so stop judging me.

I don't see anyone judging you, just disagreeing. Why is it the ones that demand tolerance are the ones that seem intolerant?

May 22, 2012

I don't see anyone judging you, just disagreeing. Why is it the ones that demand tolerance are the ones that seem intolerant?

Huh? Did you read this?

This forum has a whole chorus of voices, and if they were all the same, then it wouldn't be much of a support forum now would it? We all have our opinions..mine is no better than yours.

The only one judging and being intolerant is this one

it's a matter of right and wrong. Which side are you on?

Your statement about me is nonsense. I'm outta here as things are taking a strange turn....

Edited May 22, 2012 by standtall

May 22, 2012

Gee, dubious quotes, bogus examples, and new age what?. How so? because you don't agree? Counter them please...if you can. They are valid situations and exceptions to the the the right and wrong rules that are unique to each person. This forum has a whole chorus of voices, and if they were all the same, then it wouldn't be much of a support forum now would it? We all have our opinions..mine is no better than yours.

BTW, nice try with the "your for good or for evil". I'm not for either side as you define right and wrong. You are not my lord and master, so stop judging me.

" The wicked flee , where no man pursueth". I never siad that I was speaking to you or about you, Standtall, and I am not being judgemental towards you or anyone else. I have been intentionally vague, to avoid doing so. I am stating my opinion about this issue, for the benefit of Vlove. I have not named you or any other poster, have I? You seem to believe that unless I agree with you that I am against you, personally, a common enough idea, but one that is demonstrably false. I'm not against you, because I don't know you, have never or will never meet you and have no other contact with you other than here on LS. Other than this issue we might get along quite well. As far as countering your arguments(?), I could ask you to do the same. For example; give me one (1) reference, of any kind, from any religious text, belonging to any recognized religion, that states that deceit and falsehood are acceptible behavior. I won't wait, because there are none. The chief difference is that while I understand dishonest behavior, I don't accept it or condone it. In myself or in others. I have had enough deceit in my life not to want any more.

May 22, 2012

Huh? Did you read this?

The only one judging and being intolerant is this one

Your statement about me is nonsense. I'm outta here as things are taking a strange turn....

You cannot find anywhere in my post , that I named you, Standtall, and I defy you to do it. I do agree that this thread has lost it's relevance. Edited May 22, 2012 by JustJoe

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