MissBee Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 And I can't choose whether Neo is married or not. You still do not see the difference in perspective. I'm choosing Neo. You are choosing relationship. Yea we have to agree to disagree, as you cannot simply choose Neo like an item you choose at the store...you're choosing a kind of relationship with him as well, isn't that the point? You are choosing not only him in some abstract form, where he is in a jar on your night stand, you choose him to have a relationship with. He comes with certain baggage and parameters and unfortunately you do not get to subtract those when you choose him. You have to choose those other aspects as well. You may minimize their significance....but you still have chosen a man that comes with very specific limitations and circumstances, that you had a choice about choosing.
trinity1 Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 Yea we have to agree to disagree, as you cannot simply choose Neo like an item you choose at the store...you're choosing a kind of relationship with him as well, isn't that the point? You are choosing not only him in some abstract form, where he is in a jar on your night stand, you choose him to have a relationship with. He comes with certain baggage and parameters and unfortunately you do not get to subtract those when you choose him. You have to choose those other aspects as well. You may minimize their significance....but you still have chosen a man that comes with very specific limitations and circumstances, that you had a choice about choosing. Your words make me laugh, because this is the image I see when posters suggest you end the EMR and go find another man as if finding a man was as easy as going to the store and buy one. Yes, I choose him with all his baggage and limitations. I choose to stand by him as he is. No man is perfect. The character of our relationship is independent of their relationship, although their relationship puts limitations of time and space on ours. So does his work and our residential cities. So does the fact that we both have kids. That's where choosing your mindset comes in. Letting his marriage be his problem, not ours, not mine. I don't like that he's married, but it's his burden to carry, not mine. It has no impact on his love for me. 2
woinlove Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 (edited) Yea we have to agree to disagree, as you cannot simply choose Neo like an item you choose at the store...you're choosing a kind of relationship with him as well, isn't that the point? You are choosing not only him in some abstract form, where he is in a jar on your night stand, you choose him to have a relationship with. He comes with certain baggage and parameters and unfortunately you do not get to subtract those when you choose him. You have to choose those other aspects as well. You may minimize their significance....but you still have chosen a man that comes with very specific limitations and circumstances, that you had a choice about choosing. You might think of it as a LDR. Most couples prefer to be together, not separated by distance. Yet some couples choose to have a LDR. Those who are happy doing this, usually feel that the situation brings the most happiness to the two of them combined. For example, it may be this maximizes their career ambitions, which they both agree are important and neither would be happy if that were not the case for themselves and for the other. When it causes problem is when only one thinks his/her career is important enough to separate them, and the other goes along with it, in order to keep the R. But a couple truly operating as a team can choose an LDR because they agree on what is important. So, I think Trinity is saying that MM's M is important to her. Just like a LDR, an A is not her preference, but she understands how important MM's M is to him, and she agrees, and so it is a choice they make as a couple, to support both his M and their A. I'm not saying I agree with any of this, just trying to give an example which removes any ethical and/or respect for others issues, and gets at the crux of choosing a less than optimal situation happily, because both people agree on the importance of the parameters. I think it is either this, or it is like the couple who ends up in an LDR because one of them thinks their own career is more important and the other goes along with it, feeling she/he has no choice. I would call that settling for an LDR. ETA. okay, read more of your replies, Trinity, and I don't think you actually support the importance of his M. Would you agree? If so, then I don't see how that isn't settling. Edited May 17, 2012 by woinlove 2
trinity1 Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 You might think of it as a LDR. Most couples prefer to be together, not separated by distance. Yet some couples choose to have a LDR. Those who are happy doing this, usually feel that the situation brings the most happiness to the two of them combined. For example, it may be this maximizes their career ambitions, which they both agree are important and neither would be happy if that were not the case for themselves and for the other. When it causes problem is when only one thinks his/her career is important enough to separate them, and the other goes along with it, in order to keep the R. But a couple truly operating as a team can choose an LDR because they agree on what is important. So, I think Trinity is saying that MM's M is important to her. Just like a LDR, an A is not her preference, but she understands how important MM's M is to him, and she agrees, and so it is a choice they make as a couple, to support both his M and their A. I'm not saying I agree with any of this, just trying to give an example which removes any ethical and/or respect for others issues, and gets at the crux of choosing a less than optimal situation happily, because both people agree on the importance of the parameters. I think it is either this, or it is like the couple who ends up in an LDR because one of them thinks their own career is more important and the other goes along with it, feeling she/he has no choice. I would call that settling for an LDR. I "liked" your post, wo, before you added the ETA. You had understood me perfectly. While it is not about the importance of his marriage, it is about the importance of accepting your partner where he is at, accepting him as he is, supporting him where he is at and supporting him in going in a positive direction in his life. It is important to Neo to deal with things in his own pace, not in mine. It is important to him to care and provide for his family. I support that. To me it is obvious that he could care and provide for his family even if he was divorced. To him it is not. I accept that. We are different people and as such have different views on some things. And it is his marriage, his family, his life, and not my place to decide how to view it. If it's important to him, it's important to me. That's where your post made sense, wo. I think you put it down perfectly.
MissBee Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 You might think of it as a LDR. Most couples prefer to be together, not separated by distance. Yet some couples choose to have a LDR. Those who are happy doing this, usually feel that the situation brings the most happiness to the two of them combined. For example, it may be this maximizes their career ambitions, which they both agree are important and neither would be happy if that were not the case for themselves and for the other. When it causes problem is when only one thinks his/her career is important enough to separate them, and the other goes along with it, in order to keep the R. But a couple truly operating as a team can choose an LDR because they agree on what is important. So, I think Trinity is saying that MM's M is important to her. Just like a LDR, an A is not her preference, but she understands how important MM's M is to him, and she agrees, and so it is a choice they make as a couple, to support both his M and their A. I'm not saying I agree with any of this, just trying to give an example which removes any ethical and/or respect for others issues, and gets at the crux of choosing a less than optimal situation happily, because both people agree on the importance of the parameters. I think it is either this, or it is like the couple who ends up in an LDR because one of them thinks their own career is more important and the other goes along with it, feeling she/he has no choice. I would call that settling for an LDR. ETA. okay, read more of your replies, Trinity, and I don't think you actually support the importance of his M. Would you agree? Then I don't see how that isn't settling. Thanks for trying to illuminate. In terms of the bolded, that is how it reads to me. It never came across as Trinity supports his marriage, it's just a non-issue for her, something she chooses to minimize and ignore and see as a small flaw in an otherwise "perfect" situation, something she thinks is irrelevant to "them" and solely something that is "his problem". I suppose that is compartmentalizing and I am not sure how you can love a man in his entirety and be a part of his life, while erasing a large chunk as "his problem".In that case, I don't really think one can feel this way and not see it as settling. It just seems like a lot of mental gymnastics has to take place to erase the marriage...and I feel like when you have to compartmentalize or minimize so much, that there is hardly a way that it is not settling. People can settle and be relatively happy though. I mean, that is the truth. So I do not think that because you have settled means your life is necessarily miserable.
trinity1 Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 Thanks for trying to illuminate. In terms of the bolded, that is how it reads to me. It never came across as Trinity supports his marriage, it's just a non-issue for her, something she chooses to minimize and ignore and see as a small flaw in an otherwise "perfect" situation, something she thinks is irrelevant to "them" and solely something that is "his problem". I suppose that is compartmentalizing and I am not sure how you can love a man in his entirety and be a part of his life, while erasing a large chunk as "his problem".In that case, I don't really think one can feel this way and not see it as settling. It just seems like a lot of mental gymnastics has to take place to erase the marriage...and I feel like when you have to compartmentalize or minimize so much, that there is hardly a way that it is not settling. People can settle and be relatively happy though. I mean, that is the truth. So I do not think that because you have settled means your life is necessarily miserable. See my above post. While your words may be true about someone else, they are in no way painting a true picture of me and my relationship. Our world views are too different for you to be able to understand me. I am happy in my EMR without settling or compartmentalizing. You could not be. And as I am the one living my life, I would be happy if you respected my right to have the last say in this matter. You may disagree, but I am the one living this, I should know. 1
woinlove Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 I "liked" your post, wo, before you added the ETA. You had understood me perfectly. While it is not about the importance of his marriage, it is about the importance of accepting your partner where he is at, accepting him as he is, supporting him where he is at and supporting him in going in a positive direction in his life. It is important to Neo to deal with things in his own pace, not in mine. It is important to him to care and provide for his family. I support that. To me it is obvious that he could care and provide for his family even if he was divorced. To him it is not. I accept that. We are different people and as such have different views on some things. And it is his marriage, his family, his life, and not my place to decide how to view it. If it's important to him, it's important to me. That's where your post made sense, wo. I think you put it down perfectly. These are fine lines that are not simply 2 states, happy or settling. There is a spectrum. But there is a difference really supporting the LDR because you know it is what is right for the two of you and going along with the LDR. I'm still not convinced you are not simply going along with the A, rather than supporting the A. I.e., are you sure the two of you together could not be as happy if Neo divorced, that your combined happiness right now rests on Neo being M and being in an A with you? Because, if not, then you should change something. While if so, you should be able to say, YES, I am happy being in an A, this is my and Neo's choice, and right now we don't want him not to be married to someone else. [Just to be clear, I think you should change something anyway, unless your A is completely honest and open and not hidden from a BW, but I am leaving that part out of the discussion.]
woinlove Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 To expand a bit more, I've been M for 25 years, so I have fully absorbed what combined happiness means. My H and I always support each other's happiness, but it also tends to meld together, because one of us could never be happy doing something that made the other unhappy. It is really a team effort. There is no, this is important to him so I put up with it. I know, I feel, what is important to him and it really affects how I feel. So, when we are separated (i.e. not in the same city for a month or two), I can honestly say, YES, we chose to be separated and this is what we both want, it is what makes both of us happy. I'm still not sure, Trinity, how much you are like my H and I making these choices together, and how much it is MM wanting to be both M and having an A, and you work with that constraint without fully embracing and wanting it too. 1
MissBee Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 These are fine lines that are not simply 2 states, happy or settling. There is a spectrum. But there is a difference really supporting the LDR because you know it is what is right for the two of you and going along with the LDR. I'm still not convinced you are not simply going along with the A, rather than supporting the A. I.e., are you sure the two of you together could not be as happy if Neo divorced, that your combined happiness right now rests on Neo being M and being in an A with you? Because, if not, then you should change something. While if so, you should be able to say, YES, I am happy being in an A, this is my and Neo's choice, and right now we don't want him not to be married to someone else. [Just to be clear, I think you should change something anyway, unless your A is completely honest and open and not hidden from a BW, but I am leaving that part out of the discussion.] I think this goes back my original response to the OP, which is that a lot of OW/OM don't want to be in an A forever. A lot of them see it as a means to an end, a temporary state, a transitional phase. Whether this is in fact true for the MP is another matter; but, the gloom and doom occurs when the transition does not seem to progressing towards the A becoming more. I think there are a few people who truly love As...where they have no desire for more time, to meet the family, to be with the full time, to stop the secrets etc. Those people, I see them as having little need for forums and probably are not invested in the A very much in an emotional way. Woinlove, for your A, wuld you say it was like this? I think though when you believe it is a parallel relationship and you are trying to conduct it as a "normal relationship minus the marriage", and you set yourself up as how one would expect a primary partner to act, then it is easier for it to become gloomy as most times some kind of logistics will rain on your parade, no matter how you minimize. I do think in terms of the Trinity/Neo dynamic...she has stated that Neo doesn't believe he can divorce, therefore she will support his decision not to so long as that is what he chooses. In such a case, it seems indeed that one is going along with someone else's decision and it's not a mutual decision arrived at together. She wants him in her life, and it seems like it will be on his terms, and at his pace, not hers. I consider this settling and I do consider this being a passenger in your relationship versus being co-pilots, but I also believe that some people are fine with this. I guess the argument is whether or not they should be.
trinity1 Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 These are fine lines that are not simply 2 states, happy or settling. There is a spectrum. But there is a difference really supporting the LDR because you know it is what is right for the two of you and going along with the LDR. I'm still not convinced you are not simply going along with the A, rather than supporting the A. I.e., are you sure the two of you together could not be as happy if Neo divorced, that your combined happiness right now rests on Neo being M and being in an A with you? Because, if not, then you should change something. While if so, you should be able to say, YES, I am happy being in an A, this is my and Neo's choice, and right now we don't want him not to be married to someone else. Yes, I am sure that Neo and I could not be as happy right now if Neo divorced because he is not ready to take that step and it is a step that should only be taken if you are ready for it. Neo is in a long process of change and has been since before our relationship started. In fact it was the beginning of that process that made him reach outside his marriage. He has described it as "seeing his personality burn up". These are not light matters. They take time. It is not merely about making a decision of staying married or not. It goes way deeper. I don't support the affair as such, but I support the EMR as being necessary for now. And I am fully aware that Neo may never reach the stage where he is ready to let go of his marriage. So be it. I like this: YES, I am happy being in an A, this is my and Neo's choice, and right now we don't want him not to be married to someone else. 1
trinity1 Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 (edited) To expand a bit more, I've been M for 25 years, so I have fully absorbed what combined happiness means. My H and I always support each other's happiness, but it also tends to meld together, because one of us could never be happy doing something that made the other unhappy. It is really a team effort. There is no, this is important to him so I put up with it. I know, I feel, what is important to him and it really affects how I feel. So, when we are separated (i.e. not in the same city for a month or two), I can honestly say, YES, we chose to be separated and this is what we both want, it is what makes both of us happy. I totally agree with this. We are on the same page with this, wo. You phrase it very well. I think the problem is that you are not supposed to see your relationship being an EMR as a factor that can come in play this way. That makes it hard for people who see an EMR as an unacceptable factor to understand. Edited May 17, 2012 by trinity1 1
trinity1 Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 I do think in terms of the Trinity/Neo dynamic...she has stated that Neo doesn't believe he can divorce, therefore she will support his decision not to so long as that is what he chooses. In such a case, it seems indeed that one is going along with someone else's decision and it's not a mutual decision arrived at together. She wants him in her life, and it seems like it will be on his terms, and at his pace, not hers. I consider this settling and I do consider this being a passenger in your relationship versus being co-pilots, but I also believe that some people are fine with this. I guess the argument is whether or not they should be. Actually, Miss Bee, Neo does believe he can divorce. That is his goal. In due time. I would prefer if you would perhaps share about your own relationship rather than make a judgment of mine. We are co-pilots, thank you very much. 1
woinlove Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 (edited) I think this goes back my original response to the OP, which is that a lot of OW/OM don't want to be in an A forever. A lot of them see it as a means to an end, a temporary state, a transitional phase. Whether this is in fact true for the MP is another matter; but, the gloom and doom occurs when the transition does not seem to progressing towards the A becoming more. I think there are a few people who truly love As...where they have no desire for more time, to meet the family, to be with the full time, to stop the secrets etc. Those people, I see them as having little need for forums and probably are not invested in the A very much in an emotional way. Woinlove, for your A, wuld you say it was like this? I think though when you believe it is a parallel relationship and you are trying to conduct it as a "normal relationship minus the marriage", and you set yourself up as how one would expect a primary partner to act, then it is easier for it to become gloomy as most times some kind of logistics will rain on your parade, no matter how you minimize. I do think in terms of the Trinity/Neo dynamic...she has stated that Neo doesn't believe he can divorce, therefore she will support his decision not to so long as that is what he chooses. In such a case, it seems indeed that one is going along with someone else's decision and it's not a mutual decision arrived at together. She wants him in her life, and it seems like it will be on his terms, and at his pace, not hers. I consider this settling and I do consider this being a passenger in your relationship versus being co-pilots, but I also believe that some people are fine with this. I guess the argument is whether or not they should be. I understand what you are saying about Trinity and tend to agree, but if she can say she wants Neo to stay married for now, then that to me, is embracing the situation and deriving happiness from it. Of course, in all matters of involving infidelity, honesty is difficult to come by, including honesty to oneself. I see contradictions in Trinity's posts, which leaves doubts in my own mind, but I'm willing to consider the possibility that she actually does want Neo to stay married to his W right now. As an OW I have also wanted MM to stay married, but in my own case, I really did not want to be with him full time. I was more like the OP in this thread. Simpler case. ETA. sorry, Trinity, my post seems a bit off, talking about you indirectly. But I do think these are key issues related to being a happy OW and hope the fact that discussing this is useful for all concerned excuses the awkwardness of my post above. Edited May 17, 2012 by woinlove
MissBee Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 Actually, Miss Bee, Neo does believe he can divorce. That is his goal. In due time. I would prefer if you would perhaps share about your own relationship rather than make a judgment of mine. We are co-pilots, thank you very much. Trinity...my relationship is not an affair, so it is irrelevant to this discussion of happiness in an affair. I do however share and continue to share about my previous A as I see fit and have in this thread shared how I felt within my A at the time. If you're posting on LS about your relationship it is impossible for people not to make their own conclusions and judgments about it. That is the whole point of discussion. You cannot ask me not to make a judgment or have an opinion. We have already agreed that we have different world views and that how you see things is not the way I do and I am fine with that. So long as I am not rude to you, which I have not been, then we can have dissenting opinions and I can state how I view a situation you've posted.
trinity1 Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 I once came to LS to find support and help in dealing with the issues you encounter when being in an EMR. I received support and help in how to end the EMR. That was not what I was looking for. It did not help me. Fortunately I eventually found some OW and fOW here who were able to give me the support I was looking for. That is the message I want to convey. There is no reason to end the EMR just because it is an EMR unless that is a dealbreaker for you. I agree with the OP: Well, I read all this doom and gloom. Kinda sad. I love my MM, and our relationship is fantastic. I don't know why, if you are miserable, you stay in yours. If you don't like it, leave it. Don't let anybody else decide whether your relationship is right for you or not. They aren't the one enjoying it. 2
trinity1 Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 I understand what you are saying about Trinity and tend to agree, but if she can say she wants Neo to stay married for now, then that to me, is embracing the situation and deriving happiness from it. Of course, in all matters of involving infidelity, honesty is difficult to come by, including honesty to oneself. I see contradictions in Trinity's posts, which leaves doubts in my own mind, but I'm willing to consider the possibility that she actually does want Neo to stay married to his W right now. As an OW I have also wanted MM to stay married, but in my own case, I really did not want to be with him full time. I was more like the OP in this thread. Simpler case. ETA. sorry, Trinity, my post seems a bit off, talking about you indirectly. But I do think these are key issues related to being a happy OW and hope the fact that discussing this is useful for all concerned excuses the awkwardness of my post above. We're good. I appreciate your effort to understand me and actually learnt something from your words today.
MissBee Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 I understand what you are saying about Trinity and tend to agree, but if she can say she wants Neo to stay married for now, then that to me, is embracing the situation and deriving happiness from it. Of course, in all matters of involving infidelity, honesty is difficult to come by, including honesty to oneself. I see contradictions in Trinity's posts, which leaves doubts in my own mind, but I'm willing to consider the possibility that she actually does want Neo to stay married to his W right now. As an OW I have also wanted MM to stay married, but in my own case, I really did not want to be with him full time. I was more like the OP in this thread. Simpler case. ETA. sorry, Trinity, my post seems a bit off, talking about you indirectly. But I do think these are key issues related to being a happy OW and hope the fact that discussing this is useful for all concerned excuses the awkwardness of my post above. The bolded is particularly poignant. I think in terms of being happy in the A, for me, I was; as much as someone who didn't know themselves could be anyway. That's the truth. I evolved with time and outgrew the A, as when I became more and more aware, I wasn't so happy anymore in the A, and it got more and more uncomfortable. My bestfriend and I always joke about the burden of being self aware and how it seems like those who aren't have an easier life sometimes, i.e. ignorance is bliss. Nowadays I can't engage in too many reckless things, I can't do an A again etc and sometimes I do look back and think that I was "happy" back then and right now I think too much, can't I just be how I used to be, but then I'm like, actually fools always seem happy. I think of the tarot deck and The Fool card, which isn't a fool in a derogatory sense really, but a fool as in someone naive, trusting, with no inhibitions. He is usually pictured gleefully stepping out off of a cliff into nothingness. I think that was me back then Sometimes, you need to be like The Fool and be trusting and release fears, and then sometimes it symbolizes the ignorant bliss that ends in pain and then awakening.
woinlove Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 I agree with the OP: Don't let anybody else decide whether your relationship is right for you or not. They aren't the one enjoying it. I think all, or most, agree with the idea if you are unhappy in an R you should either change it or end it. But, note there is another context to the OP message as it specifically refers to the doom and gloom on this forum and implies she doesn't understand this as one should just leave is one is unhappy. From her brief posts I get the impression the OP is completely happy. The A is exactly what she wants. In most cases, it is not so clear cut, and if the OP would come back to discuss I would like to argue with her that it is perfectly understandable and desirable to see doom and gloom here, as few cases are as clear cut as hers. What I would advocate here is honesty and scrutiny. Scrutiny because I see a tendency to want to overlook the negatives and focus on the positive, to underplay the sadness and overplay the happiness. Not referring to you, Trinity, or to any other individual, just the general situation for OW in an A, which applies to many but not all. Everyone needs a picker-upper sometimes, and so there can be merit on blocking out the negatives and focussing on the positives sometimes. However, I think it is fairly common in A to use this to the detriment of one's own long term happiness. To the extent this forum would help people see that, I think it would be a positive. Maybe I am wrong, but I see an erosion of this positive here. On the other hand, the name-calling and putdowns are never a positive and the faster elimination of these is a positive. So, to me, the results are mixed.
Got it Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 I think this goes back my original response to the OP, which is that a lot of OW/OM don't want to be in an A forever. A lot of them see it as a means to an end, a temporary state, a transitional phase. Whether this is in fact true for the MP is another matter; but, the gloom and doom occurs when the transition does not seem to progressing towards the A becoming more. I think there are a few people who truly love As...where they have no desire for more time, to meet the family, to be with the full time, to stop the secrets etc. Those people, I see them as having little need for forums and probably are not invested in the A very much in an emotional way. Woinlove, for your A, wuld you say it was like this? I think though when you believe it is a parallel relationship and you are trying to conduct it as a "normal relationship minus the marriage", and you set yourself up as how one would expect a primary partner to act, then it is easier for it to become gloomy as most times some kind of logistics will rain on your parade, no matter how you minimize. I do think in terms of the Trinity/Neo dynamic...she has stated that Neo doesn't believe he can divorce, therefore she will support his decision not to so long as that is what he chooses. In such a case, it seems indeed that one is going along with someone else's decision and it's not a mutual decision arrived at together. She wants him in her life, and it seems like it will be on his terms, and at his pace, not hers. I consider this settling and I do consider this being a passenger in your relationship versus being co-pilots, but I also believe that some people are fine with this. I guess the argument is whether or not they should be. I disagree that it is necessarily "bad" settling. In my case I too accepted that for a period he was married just as for a time I accepted we were long distance (but not an EMR). Due to his career and personal needs the move was necessary. I can say that being LD was much harder than the affair ever was and there was a lot to work through so we could be happy and healthy in our relationship working around that piece. I would not have "chosen" a LD relationship by any means but at times, for the good of the whole relationship, you do compromise and agree to elements that may not be your first choice. Relationships take constant evaluation and as life is fluid, so are the elements of a relationship. There is a time in many relationships were there are acceptable compromises that stop being acceptable. They are not static events and priorities and deal breakers can change over time. I accepted he was married. Was it ideal? Nope, but I got the reasoning and realistically accepted for a period of agreed upon time. The same went for the LD. That was actually harder as it happened while in the relationship and I had less say over the choice. I had to either accept or move on. So I struggled with the acceptance but finally moved to it and worked on finding the positives around the situation and finding a happy medium. 3
trinity1 Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 I think all, or most, agree with the idea if you are unhappy in an R you should either change it or end it. But, note there is another context to the OP message as it specifically refers to the doom and gloom on this forum and implies she doesn't understand this as one should just leave is one is unhappy. From her brief posts I get the impression the OP is completely happy. The A is exactly what she wants. In most cases, it is not so clear cut, and if the OP would come back to discuss I would like to argue with her that it is perfectly understandable and desirable to see doom and gloom here, as few cases are as clear cut as hers. What I would advocate here is honesty and scrutiny. Scrutiny because I see a tendency to want to overlook the negatives and focus on the positive, to underplay the sadness and overplay the happiness. Not referring to you, Trinity, or to any other individual, just the general situation for OW in an A, which applies to many but not all. Everyone needs a picker-upper sometimes, and so there can be merit on blocking out the negatives and focussing on the positives sometimes. However, I think it is fairly common in A to use this to the detriment of one's own long term happiness. To the extent this forum would help people see that, I think it would be a positive. Maybe I am wrong, but I see an erosion of this positive here. On the other hand, the name-calling and putdowns are never a positive and the faster elimination of these is a positive. So, to me, the results are mixed. My personal opinion is that we feel safer and are more likely to receive the support we need in a forum where only those who are or have been in a similar situation are allowed. Just like the concept in the 12 step programs is alcoholics help alcoholics, drug addicts help drug addicts, overeaters help overeaters and so on. A forum like LS is great for discussions, but for real in-depth support where an OW/OM/WS dares to show the full extent of their emotions I find forums for specifically OW/OM/WS more useful. LS is changing in a positive way. It is allowing space for happy posts too. And I'm happy about that. For my deeper emotions concerning my relationship I prefer other forums. So I don't think it is that sadness and negatives are being overlooked or underplayed by posters like me. This is just not the place for that. So perhaps that is the reason for "the doom and gloom", mentioned in the OP, versus the happy posts. LS may not be a place where the full spectra of being in an EMR is visible. LS' strength is that it is a platform for discussion between all parties in the triangle. I don't think one forum can fill all functions, which is why it is great that the internet gives us many options so we can find what we personally need, which may indeed be different forums for different purposes.
woinlove Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 My personal opinion is that we feel safer and are more likely to receive the support we need in a forum where only those who are or have been in a similar situation are allowed. Just like the concept in the 12 step programs is alcoholics help alcoholics, drug addicts help drug addicts, overeaters help overeaters and so on. A forum like LS is great for discussions, but for real in-depth support where an OW/OM/WS dares to show the full extent of their emotions I find forums for specifically OW/OM/WS more useful. LS is changing in a positive way. It is allowing space for happy posts too. And I'm happy about that. For my deeper emotions concerning my relationship I prefer other forums. So I don't think it is that sadness and negatives are being overlooked or underplayed by posters like me. This is just not the place for that. So perhaps that is the reason for "the doom and gloom", mentioned in the OP, versus the happy posts. LS may not be a place where the full spectra of being in an EMR is visible. LS' strength is that it is a platform for discussion between all parties in the triangle. I don't think one forum can fill all functions, which is why it is great that the internet gives us many options so we can find what we personally need, which may indeed be different forums for different purposes. I understand this. If one is happy in an A, but ticked off or sad about something, say MM is going on vacation with his W and, while happy in the A, one feels left out, one wants to be able to vent, what a drag he is going with his W and one can do that on some "closed" OW/OM sites. Here one would get all the if you don't want him going off with his W, don't have an A with a MM type posts. If you are happy, you would have to sift through a lot of these posts, to get the, yeah, that sucks, but cheer up, he'll be texting you while on vacation, etc., type posts that you really want to see. However, if one is not that happy and having doubts, it is those nay-sayer posts that could make one really examine things and decide more honestly whether one wants to stay in the A. Ultimately, that might be exactly what one needs. One might get useful advice in this direction sometimes on a closed forum, but there is a bit of a tendency to want to reinforce each other as OW/OM, so it often has a bias away from ending the A unless things get really bad. And then there is the whole aspect of the BS. While an AP may feel at the time that is not their issue, they could very well come to see it differently and feel bad about their role in the future. Again, best to have this examined and debated in an open way, not just among a closed group which have a vested interest in not caring too much about the BS. Again, I would emphasize if one is really happy and has no guilt/ethics issues (and this applies to a small subset of OW/OM) then naysayers have no effect except as a nuisance in cluttering up threads. It is the ones who are mostly happy to sometimes happy and mostly not feeling guilty, who are most affected by the critical posts. I believe this is useful for them and if they are feeling like they can't hear anything negative, they should be on a closed site. However, maybe LS disagrees with me. This is what I am no longer certain about. I can't say I fully understand what is allowed here and what isn't and don't always understand why some posts disappear and others stay. 1
MissBee Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 (edited) I disagree that it is necessarily "bad" settling. In my case I too accepted that for a period he was married just as for a time I accepted we were long distance (but not an EMR). Due to his career and personal needs the move was necessary. I can say that being LD was much harder than the affair ever was and there was a lot to work through so we could be happy and healthy in our relationship working around that piece. I would not have "chosen" a LD relationship by any means but at times, for the good of the whole relationship, you do compromise and agree to elements that may not be your first choice. Relationships take constant evaluation and as life is fluid, so are the elements of a relationship. There is a time in many relationships were there are acceptable compromises that stop being acceptable. They are not static events and priorities and deal breakers can change over time. I accepted he was married. Was it ideal? Nope, but I got the reasoning and realistically accepted for a period of agreed upon time. The same went for the LD. That was actually harder as it happened while in the relationship and I had less say over the choice. I had to either accept or move on. So I struggled with the acceptance but finally moved to it and worked on finding the positives around the situation and finding a happy medium. In my first post on the settling thing I explained that people react badly to it as though it is a pejorative when it isn't, it's simply stating the fact that one has decided to be in a situation that is not fully satisfactory. So I don't think we're disagreeing here. In terms of what you're saying and my post you quoted, I think they support each other. I said that many OW/OM do not want to be in an A for all eternity but many see it as a transitional period...what you're saying about settling for a time is the same point. In terms of the happiness discussion, the problem is when settling is not a temporary thing one is putting up with while in transition, but rather, the gloom and doom often begins to roll in when one has been settling for months or years beyond what one originally anticipated. That to me is also the difference in happiness levels that may be seen with some As.I imagine if you are not planning a future with this person or hoping for more than an A, you'll have less disappointment and even though you may be settling, I suppose it is even less obvious compared to one who is waiting for a time when they will "have it all". When you're imagining a future life or a different kind of set up than you have now, it is easier to become gloomy if it doesn't seem to be materializing, versus if you have no such desire and are not mentally planning your life ahead. So I think perhaps settling for a time may not be so bad. But, it is reasonable that if one thought one would only be settling for 1 year and it instead has been 4, that you have two choices, either to steep yourself in denial and delusion where instead of being disappointed you lower your expectations and settle some more ....or you become a bit/a lot unhappy and antsy. Edited May 17, 2012 by MissBee
Got it Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 In my first post on the settling thing I explained that people react badly to it as though it is a pejorative when it isn't, it's simply stating the fact that one has decided to be in a situation that is not fully satisfactory. So I don't think we're disagreeing here. In terms of what you're saying and my post you quoted, I think they support each other. I said that many OW/OM do not want to be in an A for all eternity but many see it as a transitional period...what you're saying about settling for a time is the same point. In terms of the happiness discussion, the problem is when settling is not a temporary thing one is putting up with while in transition, but rather, the gloom and doom often begins to roll in when one has been settling for months or years beyond what one originally anticipated. That to me is also the difference in happiness levels that may be seen with some As.I imagine if you are not planning a future with this person or hoping for more than an A, you'll have less disappointment and even though you may be settling, I suppose it is even less obvious compared to one who is waiting for a time when they will "have it all". When you're imagining a future life or a different kind of set up than you have now, it is easier to become gloomy if it doesn't seem to be materializing, versus if you have no such desire and are not mentally planning your life ahead. So I think perhaps settling for a time may not be so bad. But, it is reasonable that if one thought one would only be settling for 1 year and it instead has been 4, that you have two choices, either to steep yourself in denial and delusion where instead of being disappointed you lower your expectations and settle some more ....or you become a bit/a lot unhappy and antsy. Or, option 3, you reconcile that the good is outweighing the bad and that an adjustment of time or marital status stops being the number one priority. Yes I agree with what you are saying up to that point. One can readjust how they feel about "waiting" based on the other benefits they are receiving from the relationship. For others it is a deal breaker. Not very different from other relationship stresses, like one party wanting to marry and the other doesn't. For some they can reconcile, for others they have to move on. But yes in some cases what you have stated is absolutely correct . . . but not in all cases.
Mme. Chaucer Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 I lurked for over a year before I DARED to post anything here, for fear that I'd be flayed alive that I am not cowering in shame for daring to 1. Have an affair 2. Enjoy 3. Be happy and content in it. I do finally feel I can post about it and I'm glad the OP does too OP I am so glad that you are happy and content in the choices you have made. There are some nice threads here that you might enjoy (yes I started some of them, so maybe it's self promotion... ha ha ha) like the happy moment thread, and the there for you thread! I'd love to hear your responses to those, This is a sincere question. I have asked it before of other posters who say they are happy and content in their relationship with a married man, but no one has answered. Do you feel basically like you are involved in a polygamous situation, and do you feel like being one of 2 or more "wives" suits you? This is not meant as a jab. Clearly, I have ethical issues with stuff that involves dishonesty. I don't have any issues with polyamory, and that does seem to be the basis for a happy and contented AP.
trinity1 Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 This is a sincere question. I have asked it before of other posters who say they are happy and content in their relationship with a married man, but no one has answered. Do you feel basically like you are involved in a polygamous situation, and do you feel like being one of 2 or more "wives" suits you? This is not meant as a jab. Clearly, I have ethical issues with stuff that involves dishonesty. I don't have any issues with polyamory, and that does seem to be the basis for a happy and contented AP. For me this has changed during our relationship. At first I would say we had an open relationship since both of us were having sex with our respective partners as well as with each other. When I became exclusive with Neo but he was still having sex with his wife, I felt betrayed, cheated on, the times he had sex with his wife. Now that we are both exclusive with each other, I know that he is all mine. We are just dealing with some residuals of his marriage.
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