wellwhynot Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 So there is a thread that is now in the infidelity forum that I am following because it was started over here. I was about to reply on it, and realized it needed it's own thread, and I moved it over here, because what I'm about to ask, discuss and question belongs over here, not there. It's never my intention to stir up pain for any BS, but I am not sure they will like this question. The thread is called... Memories Tainted, and the post in particular I am thinking of is this one http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/325895-memories-tainted-3.html After I read it, I couldn't help but wonder if some of those thoughts and feelings are what the WS is feeling before they embark on the affair. That what they have is false, that it's all shallow and for show, and if that feeling is what leads them to seek out something different. BEFORE anyone starts to think I'm blaming the spouse, I'm not. I'm not saying it's their fault, I'm just wondering if in some people this feeling might be what sparks them down the road to the affair. 1
MissBee Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) I don't think for a lot of men esp that is true. In my own A, I believed that he must be cheating because he felt something was wrong, missing, etc. When I actually asked him, his answer was quite a let-down...he said nope, he loved her, he just loved me too and didn't expect that to happen. He said nothing was wrong with their relationship and they had their ups and downs like any other couple.He was so trite about it and it was a slap in the face to me. I thought for sure, and I guess I felt better doing it when I believed that his relationship was wrong for him or that he thought so, but when he was quite flippant about it and admitted it was fine to him, I didn't know what to think. Now my reasons and why we were doing this made no sense to me. That was when I realized that for a lot of men, to have an A, they truly compartmentalize and believe that they simply can be with two women and nothing is wrong with that. I am sure some men feel something is missing or that what they have is "not real" or shallow etc....but I think far more men are of the other variety...that is, they just want an affair and are not out of love with their wife, aren't trying to get a divorce etc. They want the best of both worlds, they're immature, being foolish, are bored, want some variety, are arrogant or some other thing that allows them to feel as my ex AP did, which was he simply loved me too and loved her, so wanted us both. Based on A statistics and the amount of MM who actually divorce to be with their OW, it stands to reason that most As are not a case of the MP realizing their marriage is a sham...but that they have their own issues and were behaving in a reckless way...and if there is a dday most do not run off to be with their APs and leave their 'shallow marriages', but often "wake up" and throw them under the bus to try to save their marriages. I know a lot of OW don't like the idea of fantasies etc....but I think sometimes that is the reality. Where the A does provide a missing something, but it's like that missing something is usually not a viable option and doesn't work with the dominant part of their life and is only a temporary substitute....and upon a dday is usually when you see the real truth of what they value more or are more afraid to lose. Edited May 16, 2012 by MissBee 7
woinlove Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 From studies and from what we see on LS, it seems that the vast majority of WS stay married after the A. It is difficult to imagine so many people choosing to stay in a situation they think is false, empty, for show only. Even of the ones who do not stay M, some of those had no choice after the BS found out, because the BS wanted to divorce. For the ones who have an A and choose to then end the M, I would think some of these would have felt their M was false, empty and for show. But, the ones who chose to divorce is a pretty tiny fraction of all WS. And, even among those, there are probably some who felt their M was fine before, but they felt that they found someone they wanted more. And some will go on to cheat again, because what is lacking lies within themselves. So, I would think that, yes, some feel as you describe, but it is likely a small fraction, mostly concentrated among those who made the choice to leave the M after the A started. 4
Radagast Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 So there is a thread that is now in the infidelity forum that I am following because it was started over here. I was about to reply on it, and realized it needed it's own thread, and I moved it over here, because what I'm about to ask, discuss and question belongs over here, not there. It's never my intention to stir up pain for any BS, but I am not sure they will like this question. The thread is called... Memories Tainted, and the post in particular I am thinking of is this one http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/325895-memories-tainted-3.html After I read it, I couldn't help but wonder if some of those thoughts and feelings are what the WS is feeling before they embark on the affair. That what they have is false, that it's all shallow and for show, and if that feeling is what leads them to seek out something different. BEFORE anyone starts to think I'm blaming the spouse, I'm not. I'm not saying it's their fault, I'm just wondering if in some people this feeling might be what sparks them down the road to the affair. I'm not sure which of the posts on the page you link to is the one you're referring to so I will just respond to what you have written here. Some others have given examples of marriages where everything was fine by the married partner's admission and they were just taking advantage of the opportunity presented to have an affair. While I've no doubt that some people like that do exist I can't say I've ever met any and I find that very difficult to relate to. I was married for decades and had many opportunities for affairs especially in my profession. I know it's a poor analogy since infidelity is not a crime but detectives always look for a combination of means, opportunity and motive. I may have had the means and the opportunity for affairs previously but without the motive I had no reason to engage in one. I remember distinctly standing in the bathroom shaving and seeing my tired worn-out face in the mirror, thinking is this all there is? A slow shuffle toward death, lives lived out in quiet desperation. It might sound classic midlife crisis but I felt sick to the pit of my stomach to think that I had allowed my estranged wife to return and things were as bad as ever. Worse, because during the separation I had had a taste of freedom and knew that life did not have to be this bad. False, yes it certainly was, posting christmas cards signed from her and me and the kids, as if that made us a family. Having to share a bedroom with her when we had guests over to stay and they needed my room to sleep in, knowing they were wondering at all my clothes and things in there. They say the camera doesn't lie and when I look through photos from the decades of our marriage there are none where we are together happy and smiling. Any that catch us in the same frame show the distance. Were we always that unhappy? I had chosen to believe not for so long, clinging to an illusion that what we had was what any other couple had, our ups and downs, though I'd have been hard-pressed to list the ups. I read old birthday cards she'd given me and the person she describes is not someone I would recognise as me. As though the 17 year old boy will forever be trapped in amber in her mind and the man I grew into will never be recognised by her. Shallow certainly. In all those decades we never once shared the things that really mattered. She was always seeking praise and admiration, her insecurities tucked beneath a facade of superiority. My views were allowed only so far as they mirrored her own, anything else was disregarded unacknowledged. For show, not really. There was not much of a show. Just resignation, and duty. 1
trinity1 Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 Not in Neo's case. He sincerely felt he was happily married albeit he was sexually frustrated and felt his wife was no longer attracted to him. But he felt he had pretty much everything he had wished for, not realizing there was so much more in a relationship to be had. He did have doubts in the aspect of sex already at the time of pre-marriage, but he put that down to normal pre-marriage anxiety. Now he regrets not heeding that feeling of doubt. In combination with Neo at middle-age starting to question his world view overall, this non-functioning aspect of his marriage is what I believe was what made him look outside his marriage for more than he had already. They also never really shared that naked truth about who they are deep inside. They strived so hard to be the perfect couple, the perfect husband and wife, the perfect mother and father.
jwi71 Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 So there is a thread that is now in the infidelity forum that I am following because it was started over here. I was about to reply on it, and realized it needed it's own thread, and I moved it over here, because what I'm about to ask, discuss and question belongs over here, not there. It's never my intention to stir up pain for any BS, but I am not sure they will like this question. The thread is called... Memories Tainted, and the post in particular I am thinking of is this one http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/325895-memories-tainted-3.html After I read it, I couldn't help but wonder if some of those thoughts and feelings are what the WS is feeling before they embark on the affair. That what they have is false, that it's all shallow and for show, and if that feeling is what leads them to seek out something different. BEFORE anyone starts to think I'm blaming the spouse, I'm not. I'm not saying it's their fault, I'm just wondering if in some people this feeling might be what sparks them down the road to the affair. Highly unlikely. My reasoning closely parallels woinlove's: most A's do NOT end in a long term M between the WS and the AP. Furthermore, the WS seems to go through great lengths to preserve that very thing which is supposedly prompting them to stray. The question I would ask myself as an AP would be: does the WS's ACTIONS match what is being said? If the M is so bad, leave. Typically, we hear something along the lines of kids, money, reputation, BS for why they "can't" leave. Each is easily debunked though and I'll omit doing so here for nrevity's sake. People are where they want to be else they wouldn't there. Its really that simple.
thomasb Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 Nope. Not in my case. The reality was the marriage. The false, shallow fantasy was the affair. I can understand though why the OW would wish to think the way the Original poster states. it would be trying to make yourself feel better about the affair and why it happened.
Bellechica Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 Well before I entered the As, I didn't think there was anything terribly wrong in my M. It wasn't until I felt an emotional connection and a physical attraction to AP1 that I realized something must be missing in me or our M. I wasn't persistent enough when I had a conversation with my H. I should have told him that I needed to feel more connected and intimate with him. I just said I wasn't happy. I should've spelled it out clearly and maybe I wouldn't have entered in the PA. With the second A, the OM had me convinced I was miserable and that I deserved better although he also wondered why I wasn't happy in my M as if material things can make one happy. So my answer to the OP is that ultimately all the thoughts and stories exchanged with the APs, I wanted my H and my M. It's much harder rebuilding and reconnecting with him now that I've tainted everything, but love is worth fighting for.....
nofool4u Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 So there is a thread that is now in the infidelity forum that I am following because it was started over here. I was about to reply on it, and realized it needed it's own thread, and I moved it over here, because what I'm about to ask, discuss and question belongs over here, not there. It's never my intention to stir up pain for any BS, but I am not sure they will like this question. The thread is called... Memories Tainted, and the post in particular I am thinking of is this one http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/325895-memories-tainted-3.html After I read it, I couldn't help but wonder if some of those thoughts and feelings are what the WS is feeling before they embark on the affair. That what they have is false, that it's all shallow and for show I think you are missing a huge difference with regards to why the BS felt memories are tainted. They are tainted, to some, because they were betrayed by their spouse, in one of the worst ways possible. and if that feeling is what leads them to seek out something different. But how are memories "tainted" if something devastating didn't bring forth those feelings? Too many times a WS just gets bored with married life. Heck, I got bored with married life, and what we had in a sense was false, but I never had the urge to cheat. And the good memories weren't "tainted" for me, until she cheated. BEFORE anyone starts to think I'm blaming the spouse, I'm not. I'm not saying it's their fault, I'm just wondering if in some people this feeling might be what sparks them down the road to the affair. Because of "tainted memories"? No. Again, the tainted memories from the other thread to which you are referring have to do with a direct betrayal that devastated particular BS's. Not something simply as things dying down because people get to comfortable in a marriage. Big difference. 1
MissBee Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 I think a key point is the difference between how men and women approach relationships in general. Outside of As, how men and women approach relationships, what motivates them, reasons men will often do something etc often differ greatly from how women do things and so many misunderstandings in relationships or dating comes from women assuming the reason a man does something is the same as hers or men assuming a woman knows what he means by his actions etc. I think MW and MM who are cheating may have very different dynamics. I don't think a lot of women will cheat just for sex sake or just for variety sake. I think for women a lot of times they may indeed feel like something is missing etc...I think for MM though, less of them may feel that way and more may simply cheat for sex sake, wanting variety, wanting two women, wanting excitement etc. So the difference in how men and women's brains think about relationships and sex comes into play in As as well. I don't know the veracity of this, but I have indeed heard that more MW who cheat will divorce their spouse and be with the OM more than MM who cheat. Even on LS, I can recall off the top of my head more MW who left for the OM than I can recall MM who left for the OW. 2
UpwardForward Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 I can't emphasize enough the importance of The Marriage and it's contract. The union is supposed to be closed, and anything outside it could be considered that of merely scenery, unless one or both break their vows.
MissBee Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 Highly unlikely. My reasoning closely parallels woinlove's: most A's do NOT end in a long term M between the WS and the AP. Furthermore, the WS seems to go through great lengths to preserve that very thing which is supposedly prompting them to stray. The question I would ask myself as an AP would be: does the WS's ACTIONS match what is being said? If the M is so bad, leave. Typically, we hear something along the lines of kids, money, reputation, BS for why they "can't" leave. Each is easily debunked though and I'll omit doing so here for nrevity's sake. People are where they want to be else they wouldn't there. Its really that simple. To the bolded, that is always curious to me. If one feels like one's marriage is a shallow sham, I don't think you'd have much energy or care that much to hide your A from your spouse, especially if no kids are involved in the situation.I think you'd be glad to meet someone else and hand them their walking papers. In a strange way, the effort to hide the A, shows you have some care for this person and want to protect them from knowing what you're doing. Why? To preserve the sham. Why would you want to preserve the sham though? Obviously it suits you in some way. That was one thing that hurt me in my A....I felt like as the OW I knew about her and he'd mention her once in a while but she knew nothing about me. She was protected in some ways, although it sounds crazy. As to this day, I don't know if she ever knew. She was allowed to believe she had a great man, who was there for her, yet I got to see the truth and had to be the one hurt thinking about them together. Her ignorance was a luxury and HE did everything to make sure it stayed that way. He obviously didn't want to hurt her (although clearly having an A negated that) and he obviously wanted to keep the relationship together so went to great lengths to not let her find out. He was lying to her and so on, but it was a deluded way of "protecting" her and their relationship. He told me the truth....not to protect me, or because he loved me so much...he told me the truth so I'd know his situation and obviously since I agreed to be his OW, I signed on board to "the situation" and the parameters therein.
findingnemo Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 So there is a thread that is now in the infidelity forum that I am following because it was started over here. I was about to reply on it, and realized it needed it's own thread, and I moved it over here, because what I'm about to ask, discuss and question belongs over here, not there. It's never my intention to stir up pain for any BS, but I am not sure they will like this question. The thread is called... Memories Tainted, and the post in particular I am thinking of is this one http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/325895-memories-tainted-3.html After I read it, I couldn't help but wonder if some of those thoughts and feelings are what the WS is feeling before they embark on the affair. That what they have is false, that it's all shallow and for show, and if that feeling is what leads them to seek out something different. BEFORE anyone starts to think I'm blaming the spouse, I'm not. I'm not saying it's their fault, I'm just wondering if in some people this feeling might be what sparks them down the road to the affair. I've been thinking about this for a while. I don't really know about others but for me the poison was not "knowing" what the heck was happening!!! By the time my H had the As, I already knew that my M was dead in the water for me. I was determined to pursue it though...but I was one of those walking around wondering if I'd live in quiet hell forever. I didn't cheat. If he felt the same, maybe that's his explanation for why he cheated. But why him..and not me? What's the difference? No matter a WS' reasons, they have ultimately acted selfishly. They don't communicate adequately. They assume that they are suffering and don't bother to wonder if perhaps it is mutual. They DECIDE on thier own how to fix thier issues IN SECRET and actively deny thier partner the right to choose to participate in a solution to the problem. Who said that what my H felt was worse than what I felt? If he'd sat me down and asked what I was feeling, I'd have told him I was unhappy. But this isn't what he did. He just figured the world revolved around him and his needs. He then set about getting those needs met knowing full well I'd not condone/accept his remedy. If he'd been open with me about the lack of intimacy, I'd have told him that I wasn't interested anymore because of X,Y and Z. If he then said he would start seeing other people, I'd have probably told him to go ahead. But I'd know that it's a free for all and I would retreat further...possibly seek a D. Instead I stayed home performing other wifely duties, giving him respect, etc. All the while, he seemed busier than ever...like suddenly there was a very good reason to stay away more. He guilt tripped me every time I asked by saying he was out working for his family. How could I argue with that? No. Because he lied, I became a first class idiot for months trying to be better just because he was "working harder than ever". Yes, perhaps the WS feels all those things and perhaps he/she needs to find a better partner than the BS. Perhaps the M is miserable but why expect the BS to keep doing their part? For goodness' sake, I vowed for better or worse...but the "worse" was supposed to be one of those things in life. Misfortune, disease, tragedy but the fraud of As? Nope. I never walked down that aisle expecting lies, pretense, gas lighting, and to be denied the truth of the status of my M. Ooops! I apologize for the dramatics but this thread has made me remember what it was about the As that f'ed me up. Feeling like one's M isn't a happy one doesn't in any way explain the decision to have an A and the implications...the total destruction that results for the BS. I'd rather be a prisoner being tortured every day for years. At least I'd know what the hell is happening to me.
jwi71 Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 To the bolded, that is always curious to me. If one feels like one's marriage is a shallow sham, I don't think you'd have much energy or care that much to hide your A from your spouse, especially if no kids are involved in the situation.I think you'd be glad to meet someone else and hand them their walking papers. In a strange way, the effort to hide the A, shows you have some care for this person and want to protect them from knowing what you're doing. Why? To preserve the sham. Why would you want to preserve the sham though? Obviously it suits you in some way. That was one thing that hurt me in my A....I felt like as the OW I knew about her and he'd mention her once in a while but she knew nothing about me. She was protected in some ways, although it sounds crazy. As to this day, I don't know if she ever knew. She was allowed to believe she had a great man, who was there for her, yet I got to see the truth and had to be the one hurt thinking about them together. Her ignorance was a luxury and HE did everything to make sure it stayed that way. He obviously didn't want to hurt her (althoWugh clearly having an A negated that) and he obviously wanted to keep the relationship together so went to great lengths to not let her find out. He was lying to her and so on, but it was a deluded way of "protecting" her and their relationship. He told me the truth....not to protect me, or because he loved me so much...he told me the truth so I'd know his situation and obviously since I agreed to be his OW, I signed on board to "the situation" and the parameters therein. I think many OW/OM make fundamental mistakes in confusing how a WS feels about the spouse vs how a WS feels about the M. They are VERY different things. Clearly, the WS has a distinct lack of respect to the BS by virtue of the A. At some level, the WS is rejecting the BS. This does NOT mean the WS is rejecting the M. The M is comprised of the history (both public and private), kids, finances, assets, friends and family of the M and so on. The BS is merely one component of "the M". And as such, to maintain a "good M", the WS hides the A. Not out of love/respect for the BS as a human but because the BS can end the M - and clearly upset all the other associated components in the process. Selfish indeed. This is how the MM can stay in a "bad M". The M isn't bad, he'll the BS is likely not bad either - the WS is the bad apple here. So, he stays in the "bad M" because it suits him. He wants to be there because the M isn't bad. (and seriously DON'T miss what he is displaying about his view of M) Don't confuse staying in a bad M vs crappy treatment of the BS. The AP is being shown, in no uncertain terms, just who the WS truly is and his/her character. Don't confuse bad M with bad BS- there is likely nothing truly wrong with either the M or the BS. It's all bad WS. And they are exactly where they want to be - the outward (perhaps even inward) illusion of a good M and everything the AP provides. Little wonder it's called cake eating. 1
MissBee Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 (edited) I think many OW/OM make fundamental mistakes in confusing how a WS feels about the spouse vs how a WS feels about the M. They are VERY different things. Clearly, the WS has a distinct lack of respect to the BS by virtue of the A. At some level, the WS is rejecting the BS. This does NOT mean the WS is rejecting the M. The M is comprised of the history (both public and private), kids, finances, assets, friends and family of the M and so on. The BS is merely one component of "the M". And as such, to maintain a "good M", the WS hides the A. Not out of love/respect for the BS as a human but because the BS can end the M - and clearly upset all the other associated components in the process. Selfish indeed. This is how the MM can stay in a "bad M". The M isn't bad, he'll the BS is likely not bad either - the WS is the bad apple here. So, he stays in the "bad M" because it suits him. He wants to be there because the M isn't bad. (and seriously DON'T miss what he is displaying about his view of M) Don't confuse staying in a bad M vs crappy treatment of the BS. The AP is being shown, in no uncertain terms, just who the WS truly is and his/her character. Don't confuse bad M with bad BS- there is likely nothing truly wrong with either the M or the BS. It's all bad WS. And they are exactly where they want to be - the outward (perhaps even inward) illusion of a good M and everything the AP provides. Little wonder it's called cake eating. This is actually a very good point! My dad is a serial cheater who has never run off to be with any of his OW, even when my mom told him to do so. He claims he loves her and doesn't want her to leave him, but obviously he has his own issues up to his eyeballs and the As are a symptom of it. A spouse with issues no doubt translates into a marriage with issues. Their marriage is loaded with issues, but I don't think it is a lack of love, just a lack of a whole lot of other things and simply "loving" this person is not enough. No OW can change my dad's issues and my mom can't change it either. He has told OW he didn't have kids, he was separated and all kinds of other insane lies...and one was all distraught because he said he had no kids and wanted a baby with her. It is quite sick...but the bottom line is that even while doing all of this, he never left and never planned on leaving. He got caught up in the A and blurted out the first ridiculous thing the OW would love to hear. But once my mom found out, he denied this, denied the woman and started begging to be taken back smh. Point is...he is where he wants to be, bad marriage and all and obviously him cheating is not about changing his life...it is about keeping his life and finding unhealthy outlets on the side. Edited May 16, 2012 by MissBee 3
frozensprouts Posted May 16, 2012 Posted May 16, 2012 i'm not "the other woman", but if i was, and i wanted to know if they felt that their marriage was "tainted" even before the affair, i would ask them. Then I'd take some time to evaluate and examine their actions. My number one indicator would be if they were actively trying to keep the spouse from finding out about the affair. Is the affair a well guarded secret from the spouse, or does the wayward spouse take some pretty big risks, perhaps hoping their betrayed spouse may find out and the marriage will be over? In short, if the marriage was so bad and tainted, why would there be so much emphasis placed on keeping it together? why would it matter if the spouse found out about the affair? just my opinions...take them for what you will 3
beenburned Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 Miss Bee, My H wasn't keeping his cheating a secret in order to not hurt me, or in order to protect me. If that was his purpose, then he would not have cheated on me at all. His whole purpose in trying hard to keep it all a secret was to get what he wanted(sex with OW while still married), and to avoid losing anything in a divorce filed by me. His actions reflect his lack of respect for me and our marriage! 3
MissBee Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 Miss Bee, My H wasn't keeping his cheating a secret in order to not hurt me, or in order to protect me. If that was his purpose, then he would not have cheated on me at all. His whole purpose in trying hard to keep it all a secret was to get what he wanted(sex with OW while still married), and to avoid losing anything in a divorce filed by me. His actions reflect his lack of respect for me and our marriage! Yes this is in fact true. I think sometimes it become a competition in our minds of who he likes better, OW or BS...yet the reality is, he loves himself first and foremost and EVERYTHING he does is in his best interest, even if it benefits the OW/BS in some way. That truly is the bottomline. 3
Author wellwhynot Posted May 17, 2012 Author Posted May 17, 2012 Yes! xOW was ranting on about how he must have lived her during the A because he was betraying me "for her". I was actually LoL like "honey, he was betraying me so he could have 2 women, no love of anyone but himself was involved!" Seemed obvious to me. So I'd he loved me. Efote the A and after the A and only himself during the A... Well I can see why she would be upset there's nothing left for her Do you post on a phone or using a translator? I often have a hard time reading your posts...silly autocorrect. I think this may be a valid point in some instances, and in others not so much. Of course, it's a generalization, so no one really knows but the people involved do they?
MissBee Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 Do you post on a phone or using a translator? I often have a hard time reading your posts...silly autocorrect. I think this may be a valid point in some instances, and in others not so much. Of course, it's a generalization, so no one really knows but the people involved do they? Unfortunately, in a triangulated relationship, the only person who knows everything is the person at the apex of the triangle...i.e. the one maintaining two relationships. The OW/OM and BS are left out at some point, whether maliciously or simply by the logistics of it. A BS cannot know everything that went on in the A and an OW/OM can't know everything that goes on in the marriage/when the MP is not with them and at home living their married life. This is just a simple fact. Unless one is omniscient, one cannot know. The MP is the only one living two lives and privy to both of them.....BS and OW are only privy to their piece of the triangle. 4
Got it Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 I don't think for a lot of men esp that is true. In my own A, I believed that he must be cheating because he felt something was wrong, missing, etc. When I actually asked him, his answer was quite a let-down...he said nope, he loved her, he just loved me too and didn't expect that to happen. He said nothing was wrong with their relationship and they had their ups and downs like any other couple.He was so trite about it and it was a slap in the face to me. I thought for sure, and I guess I felt better doing it when I believed that his relationship was wrong for him or that he thought so, but when he was quite flippant about it and admitted it was fine to him, I didn't know what to think. Now my reasons and why we were doing this made no sense to me. That was when I realized that for a lot of men, to have an A, they truly compartmentalize and believe that they simply can be with two women and nothing is wrong with that. I am sure some men feel something is missing or that what they have is "not real" or shallow etc....but I think far more men are of the other variety...that is, they just want an affair and are not out of love with their wife, aren't trying to get a divorce etc. They want the best of both worlds, they're immature, being foolish, are bored, want some variety, are arrogant or some other thing that allows them to feel as my ex AP did, which was he simply loved me too and loved her, so wanted us both. Based on A statistics and the amount of MM who actually divorce to be with their OW, it stands to reason that most As are not a case of the MP realizing their marriage is a sham...but that they have their own issues and were behaving in a reckless way...and if there is a dday most do not run off to be with their APs and leave their 'shallow marriages', but often "wake up" and throw them under the bus to try to save their marriages. I know a lot of OW don't like the idea of fantasies etc....but I think sometimes that is the reality. Where the A does provide a missing something, but it's like that missing something is usually not a viable option and doesn't work with the dominant part of their life and is only a temporary substitute....and upon a dday is usually when you see the real truth of what they value more or are more afraid to lose. I don't know if it is so gender specific as I think it is to do with self actualization. There are many reasons why people have affairs, some of it is because they are unhappy in their current relationship, unhappy in life, grass is greener, etc. It is understanding the reasons why. But if they don't know why then they are bouncing around like a pin ball without understanding that they control the paddles. I think for some people their lives are a fantasy, in regards to they are the type to mirror others and do not have an actual self identity. So whomever they are with they mirror them, etc. They do not know their own course so walk through bouncing off of others. I think these individuals are the ones that will say whatever the person wants them to say whomever that current audience. It really comes down to the whys for each individual. And hearing "I don't know" would be very disturbing to me. One should know why they are making so a radical decision in their lives.
Got it Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 (edited) Ooh my thread! Hee hee. I don't think this applied tO WH at all. He has snapped back like the A never happened and reminisces about out shared pre- A past like it was yesterday. What Shirley Glass calls hi honey im back. BW - while I can imagine this is soothing for your ego do you not find the above at all disturbing? He made an amazingly radical decision with his life and the lives of others. How can he act like it never happened? That is insulting to everyone and, to me, just reeks of rug sweeping. If he can snap back so quickly why the hell did he have the affair in the first place? And I ask that looking for another reason that the big bad OW made him do it. Putting the onus squarely on him, what was he hoping to accomplish with the affair? Edited May 17, 2012 by Got it 1
beenburned Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 Got it, See Miss Bee's first post in this thread. It explains how a lot of MM are just shallow and immature in thinking they can just get some on the side, and it not effect their marriage or wife.
MissBee Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 I don't know if it is so gender specific as I think it is to do with self actualization. There are many reasons why people have affairs, some of it is because they are unhappy in their current relationship, unhappy in life, grass is greener, etc. It is understanding the reasons why. But if they don't know why then they are bouncing around like a pin ball without understanding that they control the paddles. I think for some people their lives are a fantasy, in regards to they are the type to mirror others and do not have an actual self identity. So whomever they are with they mirror them, etc. They do not know their own course so walk through bouncing off of others. I think these individuals are the ones that will say whatever the person wants them to say whomever that current audience. It really comes down to the whys for each individual. And hearing "I don't know" would be very disturbing to me. One should know why they are making so a radical decision in their lives. Self-actualization, and the lack thereof, definitely plays into everyone's actions. However, one cannot escape socialization and the gender-specific socialization (as well as biological hard wiring) that accounts for why more men may engage in certain kinds of behaviors and rationales for certain kinds of behaviors than women and vice-versa. Men and women are indeed different creatures, naturally and most certainly socially. In terms of affairs, I do believe this is relevant and I do think there are probably certain trends seen in MW vs MM etc due to this. This then can be added to the individual's self actualization. We're all individuals who are molded by our societies and whose actions often can be documented to follow patterns that are similar to other people like us. The social sciences exist and thrive because while we recognize people as individuals, it's also easy to see that we operate in often predictable ways that reflect larger group dynamics.
Got it Posted May 17, 2012 Posted May 17, 2012 Self-actualization, and the lack thereof, definitely plays into everyone's actions. However, one cannot escape socialization and the gender-specific socialization (as well as biological hard wiring) that accounts for why more men may engage in certain kinds of behaviors and rationales for certain kinds of behaviors than women and vice-versa. Men and women are indeed different creatures, naturally and most certainly socially. In terms of affairs, I do believe this is relevant and I do think there are probably certain trends seen in MW vs MM etc due to this. This then can be added to the individual's self actualization. We're all individuals who are molded by our societies and whose actions often can be documented to follow patterns that are similar to other people like us. The social sciences exist and thrive because while we recognize people as individuals, it's also easy to see that we operate in often predictable ways that reflect larger group dynamics. I believe there are assumptions based on the above but I don't know of any one study that actually proves it. I know that it is assumed that men cheat for sex but there are also a number of studies that show that the emotional desires are a big(ger) reason why men cheat as well. I think it is an underestimation of the male gender to follow some of the assumptions as I think they are far more shallow than the actual reasons. I do believe that men, in general, are less emotionally self actualized so they may take a shallow reason on why they are doing what they are doing but that is not necessarily the real reason. I respectfully disagree that there is gender specific/hard wiring on the reasons why the gender's cheat. I think we are much more complex than what society has ruled to be gender specific.
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