Pursuit

[Summer Breeze]

Look, we are referencing brighterwashing here as the latest incarnation of this.

And, to me, it's like trying to figure out who is to blame MORE for a spouse eating a donut: the person eating it or the person offering it. Doesn't matter. It was offered and accepted - two sides of the same coin and one is no worse than the other.

 

I'm not sure I can make reference to the BS perspective here. I guess if I get a PM from Stephanie/Wiiliam I was wrong . The BS engages in this behavior for some of the same reasons the other two nitwits do: deflection and minimalization. If the Bzs can external the threat to the M they typically do. It's easier to fight an external threat than face an internal betrayal. So the BS focuses outside (the OW/OM) because it APPEARS to be easier. It isn't and this rug sweeping doesn't truly solve things.

 

In all honesty I guess I wasn't pursued and I didn't pursue. We knew each other and it grew after a few years. I think someone hit it right on. At some point we were both pursuing the R. Our last dday she told me she only accepted it because she convinced herself I pursued him. He didn't tell her that. She chose to believe it. That came from her mouth and I didn't refute it. In truth at each dday I walked away as he knew I would and he always initiated contact.

 

Totally agree. At some point, the A becomes a mutual goal.

 

Bolded---that perfectly sums it up to me.

 

As I stated there have been quite a few BS I've known IRL and seen in here that have done the same. I've also seen justifications on other sides as well but this is the one being discussed here.

[woinlove]

Implying that the OW/OM is weak minded is uncalled for. I own my pieces of this. I always have. Deflecting the blame away from the one who took the vows with you could equally be called weak minded, but I haven't seen anyone on "this side of the fence" go there.

 

<yawn> it gets so tiresome to hear the same rhetoric.

 

Would it make you feel better if I said, of course your spouse didn't want to stray? of course it had NOTHING to do with you or any failure within the marriage? That married men/women are relentlessly pursued by packs of magical witches who cast spells of enchantment over them and they never, ever, ever would have betrayed you otherwise? That they were thinking of you when they were on romantic dates with their lovers, that they weren't thinking of her/him while they were sleeping with you?

 

Why not. There ya go, there's your fairy tale. It's all lies of course. Ya'll are so convinced we do nothing but lie, I thought for a change I'd tell some.

 

I read jw's message completely differently. She was saying that who pursued who doesn't really matter because both chose to enter an A (putting aside AP who believe the MP is single) - i.e., in her opinion, it shouldn't matter to the BS, WS, AP. When it matters to the BS I think it is probably because they want to try to think a bit better of the WS. I suspect those BS interested in divorce, don't care much one way or another who pursued who.

 

When it matters to the WS or to the AP, what is that saying? jw thinks it is saying they feel like they need an excuse. I tend to agree. In an R, one sometimes banters back and forth with their partner about who pursued who, maybe it is replaying their initial courtship. Usually it doesn't matter so much, because both are in the R by choice, but it still may be interesting to them, if one caught the spark before the other. But, I think in A's, both the WS and the AP sometimes bring up who pursued who, not out of such love talk, but as a way of justifying their actions. Like, I would not have done this if he/she had not pursued me first. That, I think, is related to what jw is referring to. And I do think when a WS or an AP does that, they would benefit from further examination, because, after all, none of us have to have a romantic R with someone just because that someone expresses an interest in us.

[jwi71]

Implying that the OW/OM is weak minded is uncalled for. I own my pieces of this. I always have. Deflecting the blame away from the one who took the vows with you could equally be called weak minded, but I haven't seen anyone on "this side of the fence" go there.

 

<yawn> it gets so tiresome to hear the same rhetoric.

 

Would it make you feel better if I said, of course your spouse didn't want to stray? of course it had NOTHING to do with you or any failure within the marriage? That married men/women are relentlessly pursued by packs of magical witches who cast spells of enchantment over them and they never, ever, ever would have betrayed you otherwise? That they were thinking of you when they were on romantic dates with their lovers, that they weren't thinking of her/him while they were sleeping with you?

 

Why not. There ya go, there's your fairy tale. It's all lies of course. Ya'll are so convinced we do nothing but lie, I thought for a change I'd tell some.

 

When people deflect and minimize bad behavior versus owning their role- I call it weak minded. I was not speaking to or about YOU or YOUR affair/MM. It applies to all humans in all situations from my perspective (even the BS as shown in my reply to snowflower)

 

I do not know what you do or do not own in regards to your MM/affair.

I was NOT referencing it as I don't think you have shared it. You posted this thread in a general sense and I replied in kind.

 

I do not NOT think what you accuse me of.

 

Please stop projecting.

[Summer Breeze]

Well see part of my query is in wondering, as it relates to the relationship, ... do the affairs where the WS is the one doing the pursuing tend to be the ones that turn into relationships? It it the other way around? Does it really NOT matter?

 

Just as an aside, I'm also equally interested in things like in "regular relationships" how often a guy asked the girl out and vice versa. I am a curious person. I like to look at things and analyze them.

 

I honestly don't think that if the WS pursues it means they're any more apt to leave than if not. I really don't put a lot of stock into the whole pursuing thing unless someone is hiding behind it so I haven't really paid a lot of attention.

[beenburned]

As a long ago BW, the only reason I would have liked to have known who did the pursuing is, because if it was my spouse I wouldn't consider a reconciliation unless I felt like his character flaw was fixable on his part.

[alexandria35]

Implying that the OW/OM is weak minded is uncalled for. I own my pieces of this. I always have. Deflecting the blame away from the one who took the vows with you could equally be called weak minded, but I haven't seen anyone on "this side of the fence" go there.

 

<yawn> it gets so tiresome to hear the same rhetoric.

 

Would it make you feel better if I said, of course your spouse didn't want to stray? of course it had NOTHING to do with you or any failure within the marriage? That married men/women are relentlessly pursued by packs of magical witches who cast spells of enchantment over them and they never, ever, ever would have betrayed you otherwise? That they were thinking of you when they were on romantic dates with their lovers, that they weren't thinking of her/him while they were sleeping with you?

 

Why not. There ya go, there's your fairy tale. It's all lies of course. Ya'll are so convinced we do nothing but lie, I thought for a change I'd tell some.

 

You clearly didn't understand a word of jw's post. The meaning I took from it is that it's kind of lame to blame the affair on whoever did the pursuing. Saying "he/she started it"! does nothing to absolve one of their own responsbility. The weak minded reference could be applied to anyone who attempts to deflect blame by using that tactic. This could be the OW/OM, MM/MW or even the BS.

[Mme. Chaucer]

of course it had NOTHING to do with you or any failure within the marriage?

 

I do bristle when anyone says outright or implies that a spouse could be in any way responsible for the straying of their husband or wife.

 

Their spouse could be the literal spawn of Satan - I still think it is 100% on the shoulders of the strayer for remaining in a marriage and engaging in an affair.

 

The abusiveness, neglect, alcoholism, whatever of their spouse is on the shoulders of that person.

 

And - almost any marriage is going to have seasons of problems. Even of "failures" within. I think that is what we sign up for when we get married. We have signed up to ride these times out, or, in these modern times, to say goodbye if we decide we do not want to see things through during bad times.

[MissBee]

fair enough...

but if this question re: who pursued who is being asked as it relates o to the other man/woman and the wayward spouse, then how is the question of who pursued who even really relevant? Why does it matter? Does it hold any relevance to the affair relationship itself, or is the question more related to the betrayed spouse ( "he pursued me, not the other way around")...

maybe the relevance of who pursued who is relevant in affairs, but not in "regular" romantic relationships. I've been in romantic relationships before, and the question of who pursued who never , ever mattered. Why would it? why would it really matter that much to either the other man/woman or the wayward spouse?

 

This is a true. The who pursued who argument usually only comes up in cases of justifying...which clearly As involve more of that than do regular relationships. It usually comes up in terms of deciding on the character of the OW/OM by the BS or on the OW/OM deciding on how the WS feels about them esp in relation to their marriage. That's the only reason IMO why the pursuit topic is relevant....it usually justifies something for one group or another in the triangle and obviously colors how the BS and OW/OM see the situation. In regular relationships this is less of a factor.

[trinity1]

I do think who pursues who and how much matters in any relationship. A guy who pursues a woman in a too needy manner is likely to be perceived as a loser and the woman will lose interest. A guy who shows little interest in you will likely mistreat you. If the woman shows little interest in the guy it may heighten his desire to win her. If the woman shows too much interest, the guy is likely to take her for granted. And so on and so on.

[MissBee]

Well see part of my query is in wondering, as it relates to the relationship, ... do the affairs where the WS is the one doing the pursuing tend to be the ones that turn into relationships? It it the other way around? Does it really NOT matter?

 

Just as an aside, I'm also equally interested in things like in "regular relationships" how often a guy asked the girl out and vice versa. I am a curious person. I like to look at things and analyze them.

 

I don't think that matters. I don't think it turning into a relationship is dependent on who pursued. Men like the hunt usually. A friend of mine who is a complete dog, who has a girlfriend, but cheats on her left, right and center, told me frankly that he liked the months of chasing a new woman and once he got her, he was over it. Now, many As are ongoing and it's not like the MM leaves after one roll in the hay or two...but I'm saying that pursuing someone doesn't hold any weight in terms of it turning into a real relationship. Pursuit is just one aspect and usually the initial stage of a relationship. One advice I've gotten is that many men (women too) are sprinters, but you need someone who can go the distance. Hot, heavy pursuit in the beginning is not an uncommon thing in any relationship...it is just how some people roll and those same heavy chasers often grow cold as quick as they chased.

 

All the men I've dated pursued me, likewise most men that I didn't end up being in a relationship with and who didn't even want a relationship with me, still pursued me. Someone pursuing you can be for a myriad of reasons. That was also some good avice I got, that you need to know if you and a man are on the same page. Don't assume that why a person wants to date you is the same as your reasons for dating them...they may not be the same at all! I guess this goes for affairs to, your take on the relationship and why you're in it, may not be the same as your AP's.

 

In your other thread wellwhynot, I made a comment about the reasons why men do things and why women do them and how often, they are not the same. I also mentioned that dating is so chaotic a lot of times, esp. for women, because we read into actions that for men don't mean a lot or don't mean what we think it means. We assume if they do XYZ it must mean something very serious, or it must mean XYZ or it means the same as what it would mean if we did it, when for them it doesn't always mean that. If we want a loving, committed relationship, often when dating a man who is seeing us all the time, taking us out, having sex, and even dropping the "I love you" bomb, we then assume that yes he wants marriage or some such, then some women get upset and feel like they were lied to when the man says he doesn't ever want to marry anyone. He never lied, we simply assumed that the reasons he was with us were the same as our own. Maybe I am wrong, but some of what you ask, reads to me as though there is this assumption already that well if a man pursues you he must want a relationship, he must have a problem in his marriage etc....yet from my experience, men pursue women all day long for unwholesome and sometimes wholesome reasons. Pursuit is in their blood a lot of times and this doesn't correlate to what will happen after they "get you".

Edited May 16, 2012 by MissBee

[thomasb]

I don't think who pursues who is at all important in the long run. What is ultimately important is who the married person 'persues' in the long run. Who they are with when all the crying is over. And in most cases... it is the BW/BH. Not the O/W or O/M. Therein lies who is the most important.

[thomasb]

I think most people get over the whole he/she started it thing before jr. high. The whole point is the end point. It always is in life. You don't look back on a football game, a battle, a board meeting or any other sitch like that. It is childish.

[SidLyon]

I wrote: "I'm not sure it's useful to determine who pursues who, the most.

 

What is apparent to me though, is that usually both people strongly pursue "the relationship". "

 

People do all kinds of things in life that may or may not be useful. Knowledge is always useful and a good idea. Therefore, looking at things and wondering and questioning, trying to determine, may be helpful to someone.

 

I suppose I have to back pedal a bit and say, yes it would be useful to actually determine who pursued who the most.

 

The problem is that on this forum at least, from the WS/BS perspective it is nearly always the OW/M who did the pursuing whereas from the OW/M perspective it is nearly always the MP who did the pursuing.

 

This makes me doubt the usefulness of trying to determine who pursued the most.

 

My own opinion is this is because it is really the relationship that is being strongly pursued by both parties, and in the eyes of each party this is seen as a pursuit of him/herself by the other.

 

Edited to add: I'm a BS and from my perspective it appeared that the OW was pursuing my H. However it was clear to me that my H was pursuing something on the side. I know this because I have access to many of the e-mails/messages exchanged at the time. My H was not just pursuing an affair with the woman who became his OW but also other affairs, some of whom he clearly didn't give 2 figs about. This led me to say the OW was the main pursuer. However as I now know, she too was pursuing other affairs and therefore probably believed my H was pursuing her more than she him. But then again she didn't know he was pursuing other options either.

Edited May 16, 2012 by SidLyon

[Lostinlife4now]

I pursued mm....but he INVITED me in! and never looked back.

[Got it]

I've read on here so many times about how many people seem to think or at least act like the OW/OM pursued a persons spouse, like they were a reluctant or unwilling partner in all of this. I suppose there may be some situations where the AP does initiate things or where the committed partner is hesitant and "coerced" but that doesn't seem to be the case in the majority of the stories I am aware of it. I own my piece of this, but I certainly didn't chase him for it.

 

Do people really think we follow them around throwing ourselves at them until finally they are just so broken down by our persistance that they can't help but resist us? For real? Does this somehow make them less to blame, or it easier to place the fault on the AP instead of the WS?

 

In most cases I think that there is a mutual attraction. One or the other may approach, but I don't know of anyone that actively goes out of their way to put themselves into this type of relationship, certainly not if the other person doesn't seem willing.

 

I just thought this could be an interesting discussion.

 

We were both married and I would say equal chasing. I am the one asked the obvious question but same energies were being put in. It's the dance of attraction, it takes two.

[Got it]

I don't think every BS is deluded. For some like me it affects if it's a deal breaker. A trawling husband would be out the door. A weak one not necessarily.

 

Then I think it is in the eye of the beholder. . . . what about an opportunist?

[Got it]

I don't think who pursues who is at all important in the long run. What is ultimately important is who the married person 'persues' in the long run. Who they are with when all the crying is over. And in most cases... it is the BW/BH. Not the O/W or O/M. Therein lies who is the most important.

 

Lol, spoken by the man who was definitely the pursuer!

 

I think while the end result does matter the whys getting there are actually much more important. Just knowing that my husband "chose" me would be cold comfort if I do not know or agree with the whys leading up to that piece and knowing the whys on why it happened in the first place.

 

I also disagree with the above because by this summation you are saying that I am "more important" because he chose me. It was never about me vs her. THere was never a competition. Just like I never chose dMM over my exhusband. It was about a decision on a marriage.

 

The decision was about me and what I wanted in my life and for my life. It was not about external parties at all. People come and go.

 

Why do you see it as a BS vs OP competition?

[beenburned]

Got it,

 

How can you make a decision about your marriage and it not be about your spouse?

[Mme. Chaucer]

In any relationship, who did the pursuing loses importance over time. I'm sure we all know of or have experienced an avid pursuit that ultimately resulted in a disinterested person who bails. It happens all the time.

[Got it]

Got it,

 

How can you make a decision about your marriage and it not be about your spouse?

 

Whether or not I wanted to stay in the marriage/married to my spouse had nothing to do with dMM. That is what I am saying. One is not synomous with the other.

 

Rereading things I am a bit confused by your question. I don't believe I said that, of course my spouse will play a factor in it, he would play a major factor as it comes down to whether or not I wanted to be married to him any longer.

Edited May 17, 2012 by Got it

[thomasb]

Whatever floats your boat to think. I myself feel that climbing out of my pool and stripping off her suit in front of a very drunk 20 something year old married man makes me the pursuer! Ha!

[Summer Breeze]

I read a lot on here - from the OW - that she broke NC cause HE texted her/emailed her/called her. Many times I have read an OW say "he kept pursing me"...as if that was a good excuse/reason for someone to engage in an affair. Some people think saying "hi" is flirting or encouragement; some people think even having a male friend equates to a 'sign' that they should enter into an affair; some people develop inappropriate feelings for a boss or co-worker simply because they allow inappropriate conversations at the work place.

 

I personally do not see many posts where people assume an OW pursues a MM; like I said above, I see a lot of justification/excuses for why an OW stays in an Affair or breaks NC or even continues an affair because "he pursued me". So what. If someone says 'cheat on your taxes' or 'wouldn't it be fun to plow my car into that guy in the other car that is going slow'..doesn't mean you should/can do the action.

 

Just because a guy hints that he wants to sleep with a girl doesn't mean she has to do it

 

People engage in affairs by choice - not by accident. It didn't 'just happen' and having an affair doesn't equate to "it must be fate putting us together".

 

 

 

Why is this so frequently used? Why do so many OW blame the wife because the MM cheated? I do not get this at all. So many OW stamp their feet and shout from the rooftop that if the BS had been younger, thinner, more career focused, more home focused, sexier, more willing to drop everything for some sex, more communicative, less focused on taking care of the kids, more xyz.... and the majority of the OW know NOTHING about the wife except what the cheating MM claims. It is sad that there is so much competition within some OW So many OW will try to justify their actions because the wife didn't do something. Own it. Own your own actions outside of what you think the wife does or doesn't do. Skylar is a great example of someone being completely honest and owning her actions. While I disagree with her actions, I applaud her ability to be so forthright and not hiding behind something silly.

 

 

 

I agree. All relationships have ups and downs - even affairs! We read so many times on here how the OW is sad about the lack of time a MM has for her, the lack of communication she has from him, the lack of availability of him when she needs him, etc. Why are those 'issues' okay, yet issues in a marriage equate to failure or a wife not doing 'her' duty?

 

The bolded. I agree but the 'perception' of importance to the OW is almost a reflection of the same 'perception' of importance to the BS. The OW sees the importance in his role as pursuer and the BS sees the importance of the OWs importance as pursuer.

 

To me it can be an excuse by either and either can hide behind it. In all actuality it doesn't matter. The WS cheated. Simple as.

[Got it]

Whatever floats your boat to think. I myself feel that climbing out of my pool and stripping off her suit in front of a very drunk 20 something year old married man makes me the pursuer! Ha!

 

So why did you do it? I know I gave it careful consideration and I was done with my marriage before I could even consider having sex with someone else. So how did you rationalize almost throwing it all away for an opportunity? I get you were impaired but we know what we do even when intoxicated? I am assuming, then, it was a one time thing?

[Got it]

The bolded. I agree but the 'perception' of importance to the OW is almost a reflection of the same 'perception' of importance to the BS. The OW sees the importance in his role as pursuer and the BS sees the importance of the OWs importance as pursuer.

 

To me it can be an excuse by either and either can hide behind it. In all actuality it doesn't matter. The WS cheated. Simple as.

 

Exactly. While potentially there is a history or pattern of the WS attempting to pursue other woman though with this one time resulting in an affair that potentially would weigh in as a factor that there is a bigger issue here as a potential serial cheater.

 

But outside of that there is no victimhood as a WS. You do it, you own it, you meant to do it. That is why I chuckle at the fog, etc. Yes the feelings can be strong but you do not lose your brain. You know what you are doing, you are just weighing the pros and cons and gambling the marriage/relationship with the spouse is, at that point, deemed a calculated risk and acceptable collateral damage. To me there is no getting around that fact.

[Summer Breeze]

Exactly. While potentially there is a history or pattern of the WS attempting to pursue other woman though with this one time resulting in an affair that potentially would weigh in as a factor that there is a bigger issue here as a potential serial cheater.

 

But outside of that there is no victimhood as a WS. You do it, you own it, you meant to do it. That is why I chuckle at the fog, etc. Yes the feelings can be strong but you do not lose your brain. You know what you are doing, you are just weighing the pros and cons and gambling the marriage/relationship with the spouse is, at that point, deemed a calculated risk and acceptable collateral damage. To me there is no getting around that fact.

 

When my xH looked at me after I confronted him I could see the lies spinning in his head. All I could think of was all the lies he'd told me. For close to a year he lied every second we were in each others company. He lied outright when he was going to meet her. He lied when we sat together and watched TV. He lied when he was lying in bed talking about bills that needed to be paid. In all of that I can't blame anyone---not the OW, not me, not his family, not society, not his friends, not alcohol, not the fog (which I'd never heard of way back then and I still think is a great excuse bestowed on WS). He made our lives a lie. He told me she chased him. I didn't care. What was important was what he did, not who instigated it. I would never, ever have allowed him to use that to hide behind. I do know that others put stock in it. I don't understand it in the slightest but I do accept it. I just see WS all over the place getting a free pass because it makes it just a little bit easier for for the BS to swallow and for some OW/OM to justify being used.

 

Rant done. I need some tea.