Radu Posted May 15, 2012 Posted May 15, 2012 Now, granted, I'm rather naive about the whole social graces thing, and I'm especially confused how I should handle this situation that just popped up. About a year ago, I met a guy at a sci-fi con. Due to... lots of confusion, mixed signals, drama, etc, we danced around dating, but never become an official couple, and in November just settled down to being friends. I haven't seen him since January, but we've texted a little bit. He's texted me to hang out about once a month, and then usually had something come up. This last occasion was in late April... so about 3 weeks ago. I felt a little spontaneous today, so I decided to call him to see if he wanted to hang out. A girl answered the phone, and asked who I was. I told her, and asked to speak with him. She refused... and started going on and on about how because I'd rejected him, she was lucky enough to now be dating him. She said very quickly how awesome and considerate and what a great f*ck he is, and how I'm a heartless b*tch. She finished by saying I should never call him again, and hung up. I didn't know he was dating anyone, but I'm pleased if he is. He's the one who has been messaging me to hang out. And I thought we've just been platonic friends. I'm.... stunned, is the word. And kinda worried that my friend is dating a total, controlling psycho. How in the world should I handle this, since she is obviously monitoring his phone? Should I try to message him on facebook or email to see what's up?? What the hell was all that?! It could be that your friend [whom you haven't known for that long] has told her bad things about you. Which would not make him much of a friend. Maybe you should just let him contact you, and next time record these messages for hilarity in posterity.
Kamille Posted May 15, 2012 Posted May 15, 2012 How can you say he was into me? Hasn't the thread agree he wasn't? Ya know, with the whole game playing, he's just going for numbers player, he flirted with my friend, etc? I haven't agreed to anything . Even if he was playing a numbers' game, the fact is he was still into you enough to include you in the numbers. But I'm getting a picture of you, whereby you create the conditions where guys who are genuinely interested in you could find you hard to approach. Have any of your friends ever commented something along those lines? 1
xxoo Posted May 15, 2012 Posted May 15, 2012 How can you say he was into me? Hasn't the thread agree he wasn't? Ya know, with the whole game playing, he's just going for numbers player, he flirted with my friend, etc? I think if you carefully re-read (maybe using an excel sheet, along with an objective reading partner to help you categorize the opinions), you'd find that at least as many posters believe he was into you. Probably more. You have a tendency to filter information in the most self-destructive way possible. How would a change of environment help? I'd have to start all over again... bottom of the corporate ladder, no friends, all that money to move and get re-established, and that's IF I can find a decent paying job... And how would that help with relationships? I have a feeling that as long as I'm attracted to men, I'm gonna have these problems. You can change environment in your current town. Step outside your comfort zone, and try some new things. Lots of men thought my shooting range idea was actually a good idea! You have to admit, that would be a new environment with LOTS of men. 3
Author verhrzn Posted May 15, 2012 Author Posted May 15, 2012 But I'm getting a picture of you, whereby you create the conditions where guys who are genuinely interested in you could find you hard to approach. Have any of your friends ever commented something along those lines? .... No. But my friends also don't really care about my dating life. It's the same old cliches of "When you least expect it, it'll happen" and stuff. I have no idea how I could be creating conditions. Could you expand on that? I think if you carefully re-read (maybe using an excel sheet, along with an objective reading partner to help you categorize the opinions), you'd find that at least as many posters believe he was into you. Probably more. You have a tendency to filter information in the most self-destructive way possible. I filter based on logic. I mean, the fact are: he would contact me then cancel, he barely pursued me, he hasn't responded to my "what the hell, hero?" email, he flirted with my friends, etc etc. Why would any of that point to him liking me? You can change environment in your current town. Step outside your comfort zone, and try some new things. Lots of men thought my shooting range idea was actually a good idea! You have to admit, that would be a new environment with LOTS of men. Shouldn't I try things I actually have an interest in, or else I'm just being fake? I have zero point zero interest in guns.
xxoo Posted May 15, 2012 Posted May 15, 2012 I filter based on logic. I mean, the fact are: he would contact me then cancel, he barely pursued me, he hasn't responded to my "what the hell, hero?" email, he flirted with my friends, etc etc. Why would any of that point to him liking me? No, you said the thread agreed he wasn't interested. You clung to the opinion that supported your belief, and disregarded other opinions that challenged your belief. There has been a lot of explanation given for how his behavior points to him liking you, but you don't understand it so you disregard it. Something can be true even if you personally don't understand it. Shouldn't I try things I actually have an interest in, or else I'm just being fake? I have zero point zero interest in guns. Trying new things isn't being fake. If you don't have a good time, you don't have to go back. You don't always know what you'll enjoy until you try it!
Anela Posted May 15, 2012 Posted May 15, 2012 I got a face full of crazy and my friend is ignoring me/hates me, and the big important thing you guys got out of it is that he had a crush on me? Crazy is spreading tonight :-) A smile! Seeing that from you put a big smile on my face. Like this: I think he was trying to do the stupid PUA thing of negging you. He wanted to look like he had so many options, and that was supposed to make you want him even more and throw yourself at him. But I know from experience that that's a huge turn-off, and when they finally express interest (somehow), you just want to throw something heavy at them, "Oh, now you're interested?!"
d'Arthez Posted May 15, 2012 Posted May 15, 2012 I filter based on logic. In combination with the attitude you displayed on your other thread http://www.loveshack.org/forums/mind-body-soul/self-improvement-personal-well-being/325289-how-accept the picture emerges that you employ a self-defeatist logic. You can't win because you always summon obstacles to make it even harder for you to get what you want. Because you are not getting what you want, you are forever lowering your standards. Again and again. Now you are honestly upset that you could not land this guy, when he has already displayed several red flags (and if this thread was not about you, you'd easily identify them as such). You expect to be treated like dirt, and people in real life pick up on that. And treat you like dirt. It is time to raise your expectations. Massively. This is no way to live your life. You are not even attempting to pursue the dreams that you have. You are giving up on yourself, when you have objectively no reason to do so. Yes, you have no reason to give up on yourself. You are young, highly intelligent, have a good sense of humour, have countless interesting pursuits in your life. And I am sure several other posters can add good qualities to that list without any effort at all. Yet because of your self-perception, you cannot recognize it as such - and that is true tragedy in your life. Do you honestly think I made the comment in post #70 because I pity you? No. Because I truly believe you can do so much better than what you are aiming for. But you can't perceive it as such - that holds for a lot of comments to people who are trying to reach out to you. Because you always feel there is something wrong with you. You wanted to believe Kaylan's opinion (that this 'friend' of yours made some other girl call to cut you out of his life). Because that was the option that was the most hateful towards you. Because you are truly convinced you are not worth the effort and not worthy of anything more than scraps, if that. You struggle to believe that anything but the "worst case scenario" might apply to you about anything. Get some professional help (CBT) to sort out your self-perception issues. When you stop interpreting the world through your self-defeatist filters, you'll recognize what you can get out of life. A whole lot more than you are aiming for now. 1
Author verhrzn Posted May 15, 2012 Author Posted May 15, 2012 You wanted to believe Kaylan's opinion (that this 'friend' of yours made some other girl call to cut you out of his life). Because that was the option that was the most hateful towards you. Because you are truly convinced you are not worth the effort and not worthy of anything more than scraps' date=' if that. You struggle to believe that anything but the "worst case scenario" might apply to you about anything. [/quote'] Well, I mostly want to believe it because yes, while it is the most hateful option, it means it will make it the easiest to end the friendship. If there's some miscommunication, or some chance of reconciliation (in just platonic terms), then I don't want to be the jerk that ruined it. Because when I stop being someone's friend as people have suggested in this thread, I choose the nuclear option... I cut them out completely (in real life and online) and pretend that I don't even know them. Full-on Ice Queen. It's a harsh option, which is why I only try to deploy it when things look un-salvageable. If he is using a female friend to burn the Earth... well, that'll make it easy for me to salt it right behind him. Because you are not getting what you want, you are forever lowering your standards. Again and again. Now you are honestly upset that you could not land this guy, when he has already displayed several red flags (and if this thread was not about you, you'd easily identify them as such). You expect to be treated like dirt, and people in real life pick up on that. And treat you like dirt. It is time to raise your expectations. Massively. I don't understand how raising your expectations makes sense, when you can't achieve lowered ones. It's like saying "You do not have the basic qualifications to work the drive-through window at McDonalds; you should totally go for CEO!" (Exaggerated for the sake of the metaphor.) Maybe I feel I should be treated like dirt because that's how I should be treated. I am obviously not a catch; this whole situation is just confirming how worthless I AM to guys, that they'll use me, and then forget me, and let their girlfriends verbally rip me apart.
d'Arthez Posted May 15, 2012 Posted May 15, 2012 I don't understand how raising your expectations makes sense, when you can't achieve lowered ones. It's like saying "You do not have the basic qualifications to work the drive-through window at McDonalds; you should totally go for CEO!" (Exaggerated for the sake of the metaphor.) You can be too smart to work at McDonalds (and research shows that if you are too smart for a job, your performance will suffer). Why settle for flipping burgers, when you are actually smart enough to be the CEO? 1
Anela Posted May 15, 2012 Posted May 15, 2012 Maybe I feel I should be treated like dirt because that's how I should be treated. I am obviously not a catch; this whole situation is just confirming how worthless I AM to guys, that they'll use me, and then forget me, and let their girlfriends verbally rip me apart. He wanted his girlfriend to rip you apart, because he thinks that you're doing just fine without him, and he wants to hurt you. They want you to know what you're missing - or she does. She wants you to know that she's won what she thinks you were silly enough to overlook. That means they don't see you as ugly and worthless (because you aren't).
Author verhrzn Posted May 15, 2012 Author Posted May 15, 2012 He wanted his girlfriend to rip you apart, because he thinks that you're doing just fine without him, and he wants to hurt you. They want you to know what you're missing - or she does. She wants you to know that she's won what she thinks you were silly enough to overlook. That means they don't see you as ugly and worthless (because you aren't). Well I guess they succeeded, since I'm pretty torn up. How nice for them.
iris219 Posted May 15, 2012 Posted May 15, 2012 Well I guess they succeeded, since I'm pretty torn up. How nice for them. What happened was weird and noteworthy. It will make a good story at the next party or cookout you attend. What exactly are you so upset about? This is the part I don’t get.
Author verhrzn Posted May 15, 2012 Author Posted May 15, 2012 What happened was weird and noteworthy. It will make a good story at the next party or cookout you attend. What exactly are you so upset about? This is the part I don’t get. That I lost a friend, and that I am apparently The Villain because... he wasn't that into me, I guess?... Also, being single and having a happy relationship shoved in your face ("Look at all the amazing things I have, that you don't, because you're dumb and stupid!") is just icing on the cake.
d'Arthez Posted May 15, 2012 Posted May 15, 2012 Also, being single and having a happy relationship shoved in your face ("Look at all the amazing things I have, that you don't, because you're dumb and stupid!") is just icing on the cake. You are better off without him. Really. So this girl abused you. But what does she have? A guy who is no good for anyone. Why would you want a guy that is not good for you? If you think this guy asked this girl to behave this way towards you, how in the name of all that is holy would he have supported you, with your issues? He would not have been a caring boyfriend. And girl, if you are going to have a boyfriend, better make damn sure he is caring and good to you.
iris219 Posted May 15, 2012 Posted May 15, 2012 That I lost a friend, and that I am apparently The Villain because... he wasn't that into me, I guess?... Also, being single and having a happy relationship shoved in your face ("Look at all the amazing things I have, that you don't, because you're dumb and stupid!") is just icing on the cake. He clearly wasn't a great friend. Based on this thread, he was immature and unable to communicate with you properly. With the second part of your response, now we're getting somewhere! I know this girl's rant was directed at YOU, but it says so much more about HER. People who are genuinely happy don't throw it in other people's faces the way she did to you, so I seriously doubt she's happy. In fact, she sounds like a pretty miserable person. Please don't let someone like that ruin your day. 3
xxoo Posted May 15, 2012 Posted May 15, 2012 (edited) Well, I mostly want to believe it because yes, while it is the most hateful option, it means it will make it the easiest to end the friendship. If there's some miscommunication, or some chance of reconciliation (in just platonic terms), then I don't want to be the jerk that ruined it. Because when I stop being someone's friend as people have suggested in this thread, I choose the nuclear option... I cut them out completely (in real life and online) and pretend that I don't even know them. Full-on Ice Queen. I'm not surprised, because you repeatedly ignore middle grounds, preferring extremes. There are a lot of good reasons to not consider this guy a good friend, past or future. It doesn't need to be the worst case scenario that he was using you all along. It could just be that he has bad social skills, and a mean streak when he feels rejected, and the friendship isn't worth that drama (few are). And there is a middle ground between giving him another chance and Ice Queen. You could keep him at arm's length, being polite and friendly when you meet around town, but don't seek him out or get in any deep conversations with him. THis is a social skill in and of itself--being polite and warm, but not allowing the person "in". Edited May 15, 2012 by xxoo 2
Author verhrzn Posted May 15, 2012 Author Posted May 15, 2012 I'm not surprised, because you repeatedly ignore middle grounds, preferring extremes. There are a lot of good reasons to not consider this guy a good friend, past or future. It doesn't need to be the worst case scenario that he was using you all along. It could just be that he has bad social skills, and a mean streak when he feels rejected, and the friendship isn't worth that drama (few are). And there is a middle ground between giving him another chance and Ice Queen. You could keep him at arm's length, being polite and friendly when you meet around town, but don't seek him out or get in any deep conversations with him. THis is a social skill in and of itself--being polite and warm, but allowing the person "in". And I'm afraid it's one I have never been keen to develop. I want to improve my social skills in a lot of ways.... but I don't think I could ever, nor honestly want to, develop the ability to hold someone at arm's length. I prefer the nuclear option because it feels both honest to myself, and a clear sign to the other person that they did not get away unscathed. Holding someone at arm's length without letting them 'in' just seems like a way that they can continue to treat me badly-that they got away with treating me badly! Let's say I run into this guy, and I've done the whole "polite but distant thing." He's lost nothing... he still has access to me (I still recognize him, converse with him.) He either knows he acted badly with me, and sees that he can do it without consequences, or he isn't aware he acted badly towards me, and is completely oblivious to the anger I feel towards him. I just hate pretending I'm all right with someone, when I'm not. I can do it in a work setting, but those sorts of games and politics are not how I want to conduct my life. If someone hurt me, and lost me, then by God, they're gonna know it. Most importantly, I just lack the ability to "hold someone at a distance." I've been through trial by fire again and again and been unable to learn the skill. I just can't self-protect in that mode. But lastly, why should I be polite to people who have hurt me? Why should I smile and be friendly to this guy, who used and hurt me, if it's true what posters are saying? (He's a player, was never a friend, etc.)
xxoo Posted May 15, 2012 Posted May 15, 2012 But lastly, why should I be polite to people who have hurt me? Why should I smile and be friendly to this guy, who used and hurt me, if it's true what posters are saying? (He's a player, was never a friend, etc.) Because he probably was doing the best he could, and didn't mean to hurt you. Just like you were doing the best you could, and didn't mean to hurt him (he feels you rejected him). He isn't any more evil than you. Just socially awkward, and doing his own version of "Ice Queen", because he doesn't know any better, either. It would benefit you, and make you more attractive as a person, to learn how to be polite but hold someone at arm's length. You'll have a lot less drama in your life, and a lot more positive social experiences. If you want some tips on keeping people at arm's length, that would be a good thread idea. One tip I've learned is to keep all conversation surface, and not offer any opinions or personal stories. Learn how to exit a conversation quickly and politely with a, "Nice seeing you, wish I could talk more but I have to...."
d'Arthez Posted May 15, 2012 Posted May 15, 2012 And I'm afraid it's one I have never been keen to develop. I want to improve my social skills in a lot of ways.... but I don't think I could ever, nor honestly want to, develop the ability to hold someone at arm's length. [...] But lastly, why should I be polite to people who have hurt me? Why should I smile and be friendly to this guy, who used and hurt me, if it's true what posters are saying? (He's a player, was never a friend, etc.) I can see where you are coming from. And it is certainly a position that has its merits, especially if you are not drawn to dealing with drama. However xxoo's points are very valid. This is also a convenient position for you to take - it fits in with your beliefs and makes it easier for you to make yourself out to be worthless, useless, ugly and all the other negative things you believe about yourself - in a way this position confirms and reaffirms those harmful beliefs about yourself. You can do better than that.
Author verhrzn Posted May 15, 2012 Author Posted May 15, 2012 Because he probably was doing the best he could, and didn't mean to hurt you. Just like you were doing the best you could, and didn't mean to hurt him (he feels you rejected him). He isn't any more evil than you. Just socially awkward, and doing his own version of "Ice Queen", because he doesn't know any better, either. So, his version of the Ice Queen is having his fantastic new girlfriend tell me in exquisite detail what a great f*ck he is, and what an awful b*tch I am? And to now ignore me when I ask him what the heck is going on, instead of just telling me like a grown-up he doesn't want to be friends? I'm pretty sure that, even though my nuclear option is kinda harsh, it isn't anywhere NEAR that freaking bad. This is also a convenient position for you to take - it fits in with your beliefs and makes it easier for you to make yourself out to be worthless, useless, ugly and all the other negative things you believe about yourself - in a way this position confirms and reaffirms those harmful beliefs about yourself. How in the world does the position fit with my beliefs about myself? Because I'm doing the smart, self-protective thing of cutting out people who hurt me, that somehow affirms I think I'm worthless?... But, ya know what, I should stop responding in this thread. I'm a fool, and he never was a friend. Just yet another guy who was never that into me, but just has to take one last swing at me on his way onto a better, hotter girl. Yet another piece of evidence to file away in the "Why I Should Give Up on Dating" folder.
xxoo Posted May 15, 2012 Posted May 15, 2012 But, ya know what, I should stop responding in this thread. I'm a fool, and he never was a friend. Just yet another guy who was never that into me, but just has to take one last swing at me on his way onto a better, hotter girl. Yet another piece of evidence to file away in the "Why I Should Give Up on Dating" folder. It doesn't seem to matter what we say, you see what you want. Yes, it is probably a good idea for many of use to stop responding to this thread 1
Author verhrzn Posted May 15, 2012 Author Posted May 15, 2012 It doesn't seem to matter what we say, you see what you want. Yes, it is probably a good idea for many of use to stop responding to this thread ... I am still vastly confused how you seem to think we are not agreeing here. The majority of posters and I now agree that: he's a player, who was never my friend, who I should drop like a hot stone. Exactly where are you getting the "no matter what we say, you see what you want"? You mean, the parts where we're all agreeing?...
xxoo Posted May 15, 2012 Posted May 15, 2012 I disagree with the bolded bits: But, ya know what, I should stop responding in this thread. I'm a fool, and he never was a friend. Just yet another guy who was never that into me, but just has to take one last swing at me on his way onto a better, hotter girl. Yet another piece of evidence to file away in the "Why I Should Give Up on Dating" folder. 2
d'Arthez Posted May 15, 2012 Posted May 15, 2012 How in the world does the position fit with my beliefs about myself? Because I'm doing the smart, self-protective thing of cutting out people who hurt me, that somehow affirms I think I'm worthless?... Yes, it is self-protective, but only insofar you keep away from people who hurt you, who believe you are worthless. However, for as long as you keep feeling yourself you are worthless, ugly and all that, you keep on affirming such beliefs. By simply avoiding exposure to abusive people you are not dealing with the most important source of poison in your life, namely you yourself. The Ice Queen in you is simply the persona who refuses to address her negative self-perception. If you had a more positive self-perception, the guy could not even have hurt you after he had flirted with your friend in front of you the first time. Why? Because you would have known he was not worth the effort. Yet another piece of evidence to file away in the "Why I Should Give Up on Dating" folder. At this point in time, giving up on dating may not be the worst idea for you. Spend the time sorting yourself out, and date when you are ready for a quality man in your life. Don't live for crumbs. 1
d'Arthez Posted May 15, 2012 Posted May 15, 2012 It doesn't seem to matter what we say, you see what you want. It is the mechanism with which she keeps feeding her negative self-perception. Wholly irrational, but the process itself is quite rational. I said it before, and I will say it again. A bit of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy could make a world of difference to V.
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