2sunny Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 For me it was 800mb ibuprofen...I knew the dangers of tylenol to the liver, but did not realize ibuprofen can fry your kidneys! So on one test I show having kidney disease...nice.. I find interesting what you say about how your body reacts specifically to various issues to "message" you and you can put them together. I would like to try accupuncture. Years ago I was one of the guinea pigs in a doctoral candidate's study of pain blocking via hypnosis. The "pain" was having my arms submerged in salted ice water, about 28 degrees (arms were fastened to a pivoting board so it was not voluntary). Using hypnosis I had no pain, sunk in up to my shoulders and relaxed. Of course the extra neat benefit (within moderation) is how cold...maybe not THAT cold...is great to reduce swelling, etc. Oh yaaaaah ---> meditation at a great level... Taking the mind to a state of nothingness is a useful tool! Especially when feelings or pain gets unbearable. To "empty" the mind is a huge benefit.
Author Character Floss Posted June 14, 2012 Author Posted June 14, 2012 Sadly I sometimes apply this technique on rollercoasters and other rides...to the degree that I wind up very limp, whipped around (but never harmed) and generally don't enjoy the ride...because it was devoid of all thrill or fear. It was not that I did not enjoy it...but more that I did not experience it! Didn't entirely work for skydiving. Controlling one's breathing appropriately when cinched too tight (I followed orders too well) and the twins are in the throat...is difficult! Far better when I mediate on the state that this is an experience to enjoy as it creates the illusion of danger and to embrace that illusion. Just a note on how I apply the technique at times.
2sunny Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 Sadly I sometimes apply this technique on rollercoasters and other rides...to the degree that I wind up very limp, whipped around (but never harmed) and generally don't enjoy the ride...because it was devoid of all thrill or fear. It was not that I did not enjoy it...but more that I did not experience it! Didn't entirely work for skydiving. Controlling one's breathing appropriately when cinched too tight (I followed orders too well) and the twins are in the throat...is difficult! Far better when I mediate on the state that this is an experience to enjoy as it creates the illusion of danger and to embrace that illusion. Just a note on how I apply the technique at times. Being PRESENT for the moment I am in - with a clear mind allows me the grace to appreciate that moment- every moment. I know that most "altered" people try to "control" that part. You can't do it well and often when altered - from MY experience... My most effective way - be aware - be present- stay present - start with being aware of breathing, where you presently are - how you're sitting, standing, laying down... Let the mind focus on your breathing... Let the mind get to the point where it's thinking of absolutely nothing... THAT is when I hear what I need to know and "see" what I need to see. That is when I "feel God" and understand what I need to understand... Then I apply it here and everywhere I go - I can "feel" people and "see" inside of others ---> like looking to the depths of their soul. That is how I can read your words here and interpret the written word - just by reading what words someone has chosen... They send a clear message... If you can see beyond what is typed!
Author Character Floss Posted June 14, 2012 Author Posted June 14, 2012 I thought you had me figured for an *********, but you have been more patient lately than expected. Did I misjudge your judgment? Geez, last night and this morning feel absolutely alone/miserable...but really believing that getting through the roller coaster and push-pull is necessary before I can find peace. I wanted to run to her office, come in and tell her how I have missed her...but I won't unless I know it's real and permanent. I won't put on my wedding band till I know I am not taking it off. Funny at our six-hour session (closer to seven...), we talked about how no longer grabbing a lunch together once a month had hurt our bond and I brought up how I had offered to bring lunch to her office (she only gets 1/2 hour). You know I had offered on several occasions and she had never heard that I had...yeah, I would have gone by to sit and eat and chat even if she kept working...oh well.
2sunny Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 I thought you had me figured for an *********, but you have been more patient lately than expected. Did I misjudge your judgment? Geez, last night and this morning feel absolutely alone/miserable...but really believing that getting through the roller coaster and push-pull is necessary before I can find peace. I wanted to run to her office, come in and tell her how I have missed her...but I won't unless I know it's real and permanent. I won't put on my wedding band till I know I am not taking it off. Funny at our six-hour session (closer to seven...), we talked about how no longer grabbing a lunch together once a month had hurt our bond and I brought up how I had offered to bring lunch to her office (she only gets 1/2 hour). You know I had offered on several occasions and she had never heard that I had...yeah, I would have gone by to sit and eat and chat even if she kept working...oh well. Since she " didn't even hear you" she's not bothering to participate by LISTENING WHEN YOU SPEAK! (she's not staying in the moment)? (her mind is "somewhere else")? How can you "feel valued" when she doesn't hear your spoken words? Did the counselor address that issue? Everyone deserves to have a voice and be heard! Have you read the four agreements? The voice of knowledge? The mastery of love? All great books by don Miguel Ruiz - changed my life!!! For the better!
Author Character Floss Posted June 14, 2012 Author Posted June 14, 2012 Counselor did not comment on not listening when I'd offered to bring lunch, etc (and me, I would generally bring the food, nice napkins, flowers...make it more of a picnic...even a candle to tempt the building regulators)... BUT, he has told her that it is her unwillingness or inability to discuss the past without letting past issues (not my affair) become the source of current emotion/defensiveness/etc that slows things down. He has told her that she clearly stopped investing in the marriage long before I did. I think, truly, that she assumed that as long as I was giving (of myself) to her and the marriage that I must have been happy to very happy, rather than there being any callousness on her part. Haven't read Ruiz. Am reading Harville Hendrix "Keeping the Love You Find," even though that is more specifically geared at singles; the principles still hold true. Dang, that is what keeps me from following through on the divorce, the sense that WORKING THROUGH THE PROBLEMS, regardless of how long it takes and how difficult it is and even if it leads to a reconciliation that is devoid of passion, or at least is for quite a while, is somehow still preferable to cutting the ties and running and NOT LEARNING whatever lesson "life" wants me to learn at this point and through this situation. Aaaarrrggghhhhh.
2sunny Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 Let me be blunt, honest and real. If/ when a man asks me to lunch and I'm NOT interested in spending time with him - he's not my MAIN focus ---> I avoid going with him, I avoid that he even asked me, it's not important to me to go- to BE with HIM! When a man I AM DEFINITELY interested in invites me ANYWHERE at ANYTIME - I HEAR the invite! I say yes! I clear anything standing in the way and make sure I see him! She isn't hearing you because you aren't her priority! Why are you trying to beg her to care about you?
2sunny Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 Counselor did not comment on not listening when I'd offered to bring lunch, etc (and me, I would generally bring the food, nice napkins, flowers...make it more of a picnic...even a candle to tempt the building regulators)... BUT, he has told her that it is her unwillingness or inability to discuss the past without letting past issues (not my affair) become the source of current emotion/defensiveness/etc that slows things down. He has told her that she clearly stopped investing in the marriage long before I did. I think, truly, that she assumed that as long as I was giving (of myself) to her and the marriage that I must have been happy to very happy, rather than there being any callousness on her part. Haven't read Ruiz. Am reading Harville Hendrix "Keeping the Love You Find," even though that is more specifically geared at singles; the principles still hold true. Dang, that is what keeps me from following through on the divorce, the sense that WORKING THROUGH THE PROBLEMS, regardless of how long it takes and how difficult it is and even if it leads to a reconciliation that is devoid of passion, or at least is for quite a while, is somehow still preferable to cutting the ties and running and NOT LEARNING whatever lesson "life" wants me to learn at this point and through this situation. Aaaarrrggghhhhh. And it takes TWO people for a R to happen! She checked out - she knows it - it doesn't take a six hour session for her to understand that! That therapist is WASTING YOUR MONEY! It's over! She's not participating! And YOU can't MAKE her start caring. She doesn't care enough to even LISTEN to you! That's completely disrespectful! WHY are YOU putting up with such inadequacy from her lack of participation? Move forward - this has been DONE for a long time!
Author Character Floss Posted June 14, 2012 Author Posted June 14, 2012 First...she is my wife...never been unfaithful (to me); was the OW to a MM when she was 18-21, even moved into his home to be closer. Yes, he was the youth pastor of the church, she played piano there... Yes, she had two PAs during her last marriage, and confessed the first (which did not go to intercourse...was out of state, she was leaving) to her husband as soon as she got home and that probably planted the seeds of their divorce...though she despised him and was turned off by him. So that is a very one dimensional view of her past. She's been honest, loyal, etc., but not really caring with me; she says she felt that if she did not slave at her job (a program within a hospital), maybe the program would not survive and she would have had to go back to some sort of personal-care nursing, which she does not like as much and which pays less. So her commitment to her job kept her from taking a break, taking a one-hour lunch ever and working till 4PM instead of 3:30PM, or hearing that I offered to bring her lunch during the 30 minutes she never took! She is intelligent. She is working on changing herself. She is working on separating differences between us that are not moral but cultural (she was very upset when I used the word "dammit" to get her son's attention so he did not have an accident and dressed me down in front of him/gave me the ice treatment over it because I had said "dammit" to her boy). So she IS working on these things and admittedly we are six months into this and she is just now starting to scratch at these things. See, my past is not only checkered (I forget that her past is, too) but it is IN THE OPEN, so I don't MUCH try to dodge my faults and failures and I've put enough time in on me to listen (most of the time) without getting defensive, while this is all new for her because she knows the rules, usually keeps them/expects others to, but also knows how to work them. I was raised a good-natured heathen and as I've said, her comfort culture is watching Jimmy Swaggart or listening to his sermons. SO WHY? Because deep down I feel that divorcing her is wrong and that she cares, but did not perceive that she was genuinely taking me for granted. I don't think her actions reflected her heart, but were simply the habits instilled over the years. Even so, I am not attracted/attached to her, but I feel, deeply, that divorcing over that is wrong and shallow and somehow the life lessons to be learned by sticking with it have some eternal significance. That said...I've never been the one to end a relationship, ever, no matter how bad...so I've suggested to the marriage counselor (a pastor) that perhaps the lesson for me is learning to believe, say and act on the belief that I matter. That didn't fly too far, because the paradigm here in this culture (midwest pentecostalism) is...God is in charge, we are not, and if we are chafing at God's demands it is a sign of where we need to grow and change, and we do that by obedience... Make sense? Heck, I could never tell my mother no. Maybe it's as simple as that.
2sunny Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 Saying no to unacceptable behavior is healthy! We're you dismissed or treated as invisible as a child? Did your voice ever count in that family unit?
an6el Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 Hello, I'm sorry I didn't quite get your story but I think I got it. Well from what I understood, this is what I would tell you. Or what I would do. She had her chance to be with you. You are with someone else now, and well the big question is, who do you see yourself growing older with? Who can you live without, who makes you happier. Who meets all your needs. Who's the one that you know will satisfy your every need. Who will be the best wife for you?
Author Character Floss Posted June 14, 2012 Author Posted June 14, 2012 and that is why I am pushing to make it count now, complete with telling the MC when I think what he is saying is BS and that I feel they are corralling me into reconciliation, wearing me down if you will, when that is not what I want. I have stated repeatedly that I would rather leave her, divorce and later regret that decision than to stay with her and regret that. The counselor is very big on "showing your work," what one wants and why it makes sense, are there other options, etc. I think overall it is a really great skill to develop. My wife adored me (adores?) on the one hand. OTOH, as I polled mutual friends I found the consensus was people who would never have wanted to say it to me, but who quickly concluded that she held the power in the relationship and I largely towed the line. It is tough when a partner will be loyal, tell you how she loves you, etc., and yet not listen. I did not realize it but I confirmed from the observation of others that often, if we were talking in a group and my stepson interrupted me, my wife would tell me to be quiet (or shut up even) to let him speak. See, I am easy-going and don't have to get my voice out...can let someone else speak and not lose my place/train of thought...so I often do defer to others because I recognize that for many people, if they don't say it right then, it's gone (my wife is like that). I really think a lot of it was just her habits/attitudes from her birth family and her first marriage, carried over unintentionally into our marriage. I brought things up, but not forcefully enough and not repeatedly, and I went outside the marriage after I had reached a point where what she might do for me or to me no longer made any difference to me. I no longer buy that if I just romance her, give to her, etc., those feelings on my part will come back; it seems those would be more effective were it she who no longer felt that toward me. Fake till you make it is very christian, and sometimes means, just fake it.
an6el Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 There, I said it. GUILT. You just have to learn from your mistakes
Author Character Floss Posted June 14, 2012 Author Posted June 14, 2012 From the beginning my thought was, "I can live without my life, I cannot live without the OW." Now...let's be real...how many of us truly mean that when we say it? Few of us wilt and die, and few of us commit suicide rather than go on without a certain Someone. So it is hyperbole. Similarly, neither of them can nor should meet all my needs and I doubt that is what you truly meant. There is a certain joy or enlivening that comes about when facing life and its ups and downs (especially when generated by oneself or one's partner!) with the person who, for whatever reasons (chemistry, etc) simply brightens your life. I used the word "guilt." It may have been better to say a dogged commitment to finding my way back to doing the right things. Haven't spoken to wife in a week, and don't expect to speak to her next week either. I am hopeful that the distance helps both our pendulums swing less. She is too likely and willing to want me back, not to lose me, to fear abandonment and perhaps to fear losing her husband, having lost her first one to another woman; and I am far more likely to want out sooner than is healthy. We've been at this counseling going on seven months now, two to three/four hours weekly, and while we are learning about one another, noe of it has thus far resulted in leaving me more likely to say, "Wow...I do not want to let this person get away." Yet I feel I would love it if my AP's (OK, ex-AP's) FWB who is 18 years younger than I am decided to assert his male dominance in a...less than diplomatic way... Funny where my jealousy lies. Thank you for checking in...I'll have to look up your posts/situation.
2sunny Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 and that is why I am pushing to make it count now, complete with telling the MC when I think what he is saying is BS and that I feel they are corralling me into reconciliation, wearing me down if you will, when that is not what I want. I have stated repeatedly that I would rather leave her, divorce and later regret that decision than to stay with her and regret that. The counselor is very big on "showing your work," what one wants and why it makes sense, are there other options, etc. I think overall it is a really great skill to develop. My wife adored me (adores?) on the one hand. OTOH, as I polled mutual friends I found the consensus was people who would never have wanted to say it to me, but who quickly concluded that she held the power in the relationship and I largely towed the line. It is tough when a partner will be loyal, tell you how she loves you, etc., and yet not listen. I did not realize it but I confirmed from the observation of others that often, if we were talking in a group and my stepson interrupted me, my wife would tell me to be quiet (or shut up even) to let him speak. See, I am easy-going and don't have to get my voice out...can let someone else speak and not lose my place/train of thought...so I often do defer to others because I recognize that for many people, if they don't say it right then, it's gone (my wife is like that). I really think a lot of it was just her habits/attitudes from her birth family and her first marriage, carried over unintentionally into our marriage. I brought things up, but not forcefully enough and not repeatedly, and I went outside the marriage after I had reached a point where what she might do for me or to me no longer made any difference to me. I no longer buy that if I just romance her, give to her, etc., those feelings on my part will come back; it seems those would be more effective were it she who no longer felt that toward me. Fake till you make it is very christian, and sometimes means, just fake it. First paragraph... Can anyone REALLY control someone into submission? ONLY if they don't have a healthy sense of self and what that looks like on them. If its not what YOU want - then why put any effort or energy into it at all? Second paragraph Since your preference is to leave her - why aren't THEY HEARING YOU? Wy aren't YOU taking ACTIOn to do what your intent is = leaving...? Third paragraph Yu reference what YOU want - but your W isn't HEARING you and she's not paying enough attention to even realize you've asked to have lunch with her more than once. You may be asking - but you're not HEARD = she doesn't respect you enough to LISTEN = you have no value to her. I guess her job does more than you. Sad! Fourth paragraph IF your W "adored you" it wouldn't look so unbalanced... And friends would have no need to point out that she calls the shots. Still - THAT is CONTINUING to minimize your value. Having YOU be quiet or telling you to shut up is COMPLETELY DISTESPEVTFUL and devaluing you as her partner. She's also trained her child to treat you with disrespect by the way she participates. Terrible! Fifth paragraph You may be patient - but I found that MY being patient allowed a lot of people to disrespect me as a person - but it's all in what I ALLOWED! You aren't heard because she doesn't respect and honor you. There's NOTHING loving about that at all. You tell me she loves you but she doesn't ACT LIKE SHE LOVES YOU. Words with no action are lies! No need to be patient when it means you are accepting unacceptable behavior. You can say NO! Sixth paragraph Her experience is what makes her the way she is...yes. And if you don't like it - it's best to stop wasting your time- her time - and that pastors time. Trying to make everyone else happy when it causes you pain is not what God wants or intended. Stop fooling yourself. Stop lying to yourself and to her. You're not in love with her. She doesn't act loving. The M isn't happy and she's not even making an effort! Seventh paragraph Those feelings of faking (lying more) when you don't feel it - is essentially asking you to betray yourself. That goes against Gods will. One should never betray self! If you've been telling that pastor you're not feeling it - your not being heard- she's not respecting you - she's not honoring you - and he/she is asking you to keep putting up with that kind of inadequate love and life - you may as well be dead! No one should HAVE to endur abuse (even if it is described as being discounted or ignored) and being disrespected! Because when a person has those components in a M and they refer to THAT as live = they are SO WRONG!!! Gods love doesn't say to ALLOW someone to treat us poorly and stay and ask for more of the same! You can't "fake it til ya make it" when one person makes things so unbalanced! Last paragraph Fake it = NO!!! That's LYING! Sop lying! Be honest! State how you feel and follow with action! If you don't like it - leave her! Nothing worse than BEING married but feeling all alone! She's not even trying to partner up with you!
Author Character Floss Posted June 15, 2012 Author Posted June 15, 2012 Wow...what to say... You are absolutely right about it being my choice whether others badger me/wear me down/etc. I agree. I am cautious enough to listen to their arguments and my wife is trying, confronting the fact that her assumptions are not necessarily accurate...the assumptions of family/culture she was not aware of... God bless her (literally and as an expression), instead of giving me the boot or just shovels full of rage, she felt, "This is out of character...what went on, what do WE have to do to repair this?" She is trying...and we are still scratching the surface in many ways six months into MC, four months into separation. The crazy deal, assuming your references to God reflect your views/not entering my mythology only...is that on Monday, the MC (who is still licensed as a pastor but left that to become a counselor) suggested that I was working too hard to generate/create feelings of love in me for my wife, while also proposing that I still need to define what love is/maybe I already love her... AND...he asked if when I pray for my AP, which I do, do I ask that IF it is God who is somehow in this or willing to redeem it, that He show me/make a way. So that Monday night I tossed and turned and meditated/prayed/released such things...and again on Tuesday...and it was Wednesday morning when unexpectedly my former AP walked into my office. My sister readily sees this as an example of, "I sent you two boats and a helicopter." The MC sees it as when someone cries out to his/her god/higher power for help in desperation...and the next day someone from a cult knocks on his door! I was choosing to believe God would not jack with me, if you know what I mean. He is suggesting, "God doesn't jack with anyone, but He does put things in our path so that we are forced to clarify what we really want." It's just so "unchristian" to divorce for anything short of abuse, you know? And I see her trying to implement changes. She journals each day from what she is studying/learning and implementing, and has the makings of a good book there...so I see the effort. Yes, I became invisible to her...and I think that was the result of me becoming healthier/more independent than when I met her, when I fit nicely within her Mama-Bear outlook (the 19 year-old still has to ask permission to go see his girlfriend at her home with her parents there)...and I was willing to embrace that in the turmoil I had then. Right now...just for today, so to speak...I am working on being at peace with feeling alone and lonely, centering myself to enjoy my company. Maybe I need a little of that to make the strength to do what I don't want to do...which is serve her with papers (which strikes me as humiliating her). That may be necessary because she may not be willing to agree to anything...and also, she knows I don't want to add to her injury by that. Thank you for your blunt (good) thoughts...going to meditate a bit and read though!
2sunny Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 Have you read the books by Ruiz? If not - read them all tonight! Hurry up! From my experience and perspective - your assessment of many things needs much more clarification. I don't see how your wife writing and writing shows love for you. I am a believer that you would either feel love or not... It's not something you can force. Is neglect love? Nope. Yet your W neglects you! You allow more neglect and expect it to be love. So many things are backwards for you - READ those books! They will help you!!! And I see your AP differently than you do. You have automatic love for her - you pray for her - then SHE SHOWS UP! That's GOD bringing her to you - yet YOU send her away! Backwards!!! You LOVE HER! Dang. Yet you DENY your love - why? Why not just be honest with your W and say you don't live her like you think you should- and that she's treated you poorly- and you're sick of lying to yourself and pretending - and tired of waiting to "have feelings". Then - your AP - there's no forcing the live! Go man go! Divorce and go with the live that is easy flow of energy... I give you permission to be happy! Dang - if you were to find out next week you would die - who would you want to be with? If its your AP - then proper order says divorce first before starting again with your OW. But don't make promises you can't onor - the first agreement - be impeccable with your word. Go read the books - they changed my life for the better!
2sunny Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 In explaining my version of Gods world... I actually considered energy. Positive energy Negative energy Flow of energy All sign of what God has in store for me. If something happens as a natural flow of energy - that is Gods world If I come up against a lot of RESISTANCE - that is God telling me it's not supposed to BE that way. If I can grow positive energy bigger with little effort- I get evidence of Gods work! If someone throws a lot of negative energy my way (like your wife does) I immediately shut that down and don't grow THAT negative energy bigger! That theory - if I ignore something/someone long enough - it will go away. The goal is to read energy - and shut down any negative energy paths as quickly as possible. IF I am trying to FORCE my will on a situation - its not meant to be - that's MY will, not Gods will. If I have situations that seem to just flow in the positive energy path - I INVEST MY TIME AND ENERGY on growing that positive energy path bigger! I can FEEL IT when it's easy and right! It flows! I have NO resistance and I'm not CAUSING harm to SELF or OTHERS! That is Gods world - to ME! You have resistance - THAT should tell you everything you need to KNOW! Why are YOU questioning what God is showing you? YOU are being shown what the path is - yet you KEEP TRYING TO MAKE IT YOUR WAY = that is NOT Gods world - to me... Does TAHT make sense to you? Forcing energy is never going to turn out well or good.
Author Character Floss Posted June 15, 2012 Author Posted June 15, 2012 Sooo... I have resistance to divorcing my wife. From what you wrote, that means I am encountering not a positive energy flow in this...I am encountering resistance...and forcing my will = separation/divorce. I may be interpreting it as everything but what you mean, but the part about forcing my will (upon the situation) to me rings of trying to end the marriage when so many are calling me not to...even my intellect/logic. I wonder if healthy divorces are primarily logic-driven or emotion-driven?
2sunny Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 I was referring to the negative energy being you, your wife , your pastor trying to MAKE the M work when it's clearly not working. Continuing counseling when your heart isn't in it - and actually attached to your OW is living a lie (negative energy growing bigger). Why are you forcing it? If its not flowing - its never going to feel right.
2sunny Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 If I ever have to " wear someone down" or have a six hour counseling session to get my way = it's already over and I'm just not being honest with myself or others either.
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