tojaz Posted May 25, 2012 Posted May 25, 2012 . My psychologist bluntly offered that she thought our marriage was ill-conceived at best, when I went to see her after having made love with Ann and knowing I needed to get a handle on myself. She may be right or wrong, but I need to make the decisions. A psychologist does not have cameras in your household, no film of your pre-affair marriage to base a real judgment on. Their opinions are based solely on your descriptions and that alone. So how would a WS describe their marriage after spending the night with their affair partner? I give you credit CF for some of the most carefully crafted justification I have seen in quite awhile. Facts remain the same though.... everybody paints their picture showing their best side. Thats what fuels affairs, thickens the fog, even allows many people to fool themselves..... for awhile. TOJAZ 1
habs53 Posted May 25, 2012 Posted May 25, 2012 Ah..the judge not lest you be judged, that's harsh..that walk backwards through time to find the future of where you are today. Those twists and turns between what is and what could have been...perhaps what should have been but are not. Choices you have made, but own up to them blamelessly to put your hurt above other's, that is the affair fog that you are seeking to learn more about, is it not? MC is hard CF..educated or not. I have 3 college degrees and a lifetime of common sense; however, compassion for other people pits humanity above desire. I feel for you CF, I truly do...because when you come out of this affair fog, I feel that you will finally see that Ann is merely an extension of you trying to save someone in need of saving, when what you have in front of you striving to save you, is the woman who saved you from yourself, but you don't respect. I see you are still around trippi 1
Author Character Floss Posted May 25, 2012 Author Posted May 25, 2012 one possible sidebar Tojaz... I have worked for three extended periods with this one psychologist, who can generally spot my bull$hit even if/when I at first do not acknowledge it... And yes, who then calls me on it. I don't see how I have JUSTIFIED my adultery. There is no justification for one, and frankly if my wife were a horrid person (and I have maintained throughout that she is intelligent, caring, loyal, hard-working (at least at work) and the like), the choice to look outside the marriage to have my needs met was my own, and cannot be justified. Now if you want me to say oh, my wife is all that I described above and really does not have any significant flaws as well, I won't; that is not the case. Believe it or not, I did nearly all the cooking, clothes washing, vacuuming/dusting, checking on my stepson's grades (though I could not stomach nearly doing his homework for him, which is what likely got him through school), buying her thoughtful gifts, massaging her feet and shoulders routinely, doing things with/for her family, sending flowers as long as they were done in ways that she would like for no reason, indulging, so to speak, her desire for mid-to-high end keyboards and computers, going shopping for clothes with her (she felt I helped her get better clothes and called me her Queer Eye for the Straight Girl), etc)...but guess what? I was also at times condescending and dismissive, particularly if we disagreed and she could not formulate a good argument for her position; flip side, if she did, I would drop my position. I don't have to be right and love being shown to be wrong--but I expect that I must be able to support my positions and expect the same of others before I relinquish mine). I never embraced that relationship is more important than having what is right come out...not being right (myself)...but just accepting when certain situations do not demand and are not well-served by such a pursuit. Let's see...oh, yes, I told my stepson, "Dammit Billy-Bob, slow down" when he ignored my direction (x 3) to get off the gas and slow down heading toward a traffic jam on the highway...yes, I got dressed down for that one. I have been all too willing to be blunt to the point of not considering how it would hurt her. So yes, particularly in the first year to year and a half of our marriage she was very giving...perhaps my tendencies to try to meet her wants drove her away from giving to me... And yes, my caregiving continued even after the care was gone...let's say, late 2010/early 2011. But guess what? Even if I never swore for real, never mind said "pissed off," and was never condescending and never said anything hurtful and had always been PURRFECT, it would not justify my going outside the marriage. Oh, I'd asked for MC long before I even knew my AP, and was rebuffed; how could I suggest that we both had things to work on? After all, she came from a good family. So yes, I am reared up...for two reasons: first, not all psychologist can be BS'd for seven years, and with that much time a good one gets a chance to draw reasonable conclusions, without the cameras, based on discounting to whatever degree what the patient says and adjusting for the biases of the patient; and it doesn't matter if my wife were horrible and I a saint, up till the affair, that would not justify the affair. My first wife spent 12-16 hours/day online chatting...and I did not have an affair...yet even if I had, I would have been in the wrong and without justification. I am in the wrong here...my wife did not create the affair nor deserve it. I would rather that we had pressed for relational integrity when we knew things weren't right a couple of years ago...I did not. MC did not make her radar till I told her I wanted to move out and get some breathing room last October, and even then, once I agreed not to, the openness to it went away till mid December. I don't understand (maybe I am just too stupid) how some people cannot get it that these are separate issues: No matter what she did or I did or did not do, there is no justifying the affair. There is however assessing a relationship and finding that at least for one of the participants, it was not worth being in, and that participant either should have gotten out, or if necessary insisted on MC as a condition to staying together. And you know what? If we talked to my wife, we might find that from her view, she felt the relationship was not worth her participation because of how I treated her. The fact of the matter is neither of us pushed hard to work on things and then I stepped (leaped, jumped, swan-dived) outside the boundaries of the marriage...and there can be no excuse or justification for it. The factors supplied by both participants are no justification, but they are a good measure of what can or cannot be tolerated within the union in the future if honest fidelity is to be maintained (dishonest fidelity being the sense that one part would really be relieved if the other party left or "worse," but that fidelity of behavior is maintained).
Author Character Floss Posted May 25, 2012 Author Posted May 25, 2012 I think you are viewing a R as one person being the Dom and one needing to be the Sub. It's not so. In a healthy R - such as you experienced moreso with your first wife - its all about balance. When it's balanced - one doesn't try to overpower the other - one doesn't need to submit. It's even and respectful. Good balance is effortless. If you (or your wife) have situations where one NEEDS to force things or to "get THEIR way - that's one person trying to take things off balance. Each person has a right to BE their OWN PERSON! To be respected and honored for the beauty of who you are as an individual is key! I lose the beauty of ME if I am trying to please others and it causes me to DO things I don't want to do or things I don't agree with. That's when I know that someone else is trying to force THEIR will upon me. That is when I say NO! I have my own opinion - my own experience and perspective. I don't need others to agree with me - but I sure as heck am not going to ALLOW others to try and FORCE me to be the person I don't INTEND to be in order to make them happy and ME SAD! No way! Good balance doesn't look/feel that way! You decide for you - don't let anyone else try and convince you what makes you happy - that is up to you. Your childhood = see if you can UNLEARN what you've learned - a great book is don Miguel Ruiz "the voice of knowledge. Get it today. It's a quick easy read and should help you immensely in letting go of learned ideas that aren't working for you - letting them go - and finding a way that works to make YOU happy! Thank you 2Sunny. I certainly can, and am, unlearning those messages/behaviors. I often think (not original) that what can be so damaging or uplifting is the "message" that comes with an event...more than the event itself. I've also ordered the Self-Parenting Plan. The essential premise is that those whose parents successfully parented them, appropriately protected them, appropriately challenged them, usually learn to "parent" themselves: set and maintain boundaries; not be untrue to themselves (which is different than being selfish); etc. Those who were not parented/protected often have not internalized the sense of appropriate personal value, the right to protect, to give (and give extravagantly) because one wants to, rather than simply because it is what is done or expected. In the past I did not believe this view (IOW, my IC has brought this up before over the years and I've as much as said, or said, "thank you for more psycho-babble BS; what matters is what I choose to do today) but my failures have caused me to back off from my previous position, and I did have a near "all-at-once" moment in MC where the pieces came together...my blaming others, why I do, how and why I do not protect myself, etc... So if the model works/has good predictive value...
tojaz Posted May 25, 2012 Posted May 25, 2012 one possible sidebar Tojaz... I have worked for three extended periods with this one psychologist, who can generally spot my bull$hit even if/when I at first do not acknowledge it... And yes, who then calls me on it. I don't see how I have JUSTIFIED my adultery. There is no justification for one, and frankly if my wife were a horrid person (and I have maintained throughout that she is intelligent, caring, loyal, hard-working (at least at work) and the like), the choice to look outside the marriage to have my needs met was my own, and cannot be justified. Now if you want me to say oh, my wife is all that I described above and really does not have any significant flaws as well, I won't; that is not the case. Believe it or not, I did nearly all the cooking, clothes washing, vacuuming/dusting, checking on my stepson's grades (though I could not stomach nearly doing his homework for him, which is what likely got him through school), buying her thoughtful gifts, massaging her feet and shoulders routinely, doing things with/for her family, sending flowers as long as they were done in ways that she would like for no reason, indulging, so to speak, her desire for mid-to-high end keyboards and computers, going shopping for clothes with her (she felt I helped her get better clothes and called me her Queer Eye for the Straight Girl), etc)...but guess what? I was also at times condescending and dismissive, particularly if we disagreed and she could not formulate a good argument for her position; flip side, if she did, I would drop my position. I don't have to be right and love being shown to be wrong--but I expect that I must be able to support my positions and expect the same of others before I relinquish mine). I never embraced that relationship is more important than having what is right come out...not being right (myself)...but just accepting when certain situations do not demand and are not well-served by such a pursuit. Let's see...oh, yes, I told my stepson, "Dammit Billy-Bob, slow down" when he ignored my direction (x 3) to get off the gas and slow down heading toward a traffic jam on the highway...yes, I got dressed down for that one. I have been all too willing to be blunt to the point of not considering how it would hurt her. So yes, particularly in the first year to year and a half of our marriage she was very giving...perhaps my tendencies to try to meet her wants drove her away from giving to me... And yes, my caregiving continued even after the care was gone...let's say, late 2010/early 2011. But guess what? Even if I never swore for real, never mind said "pissed off," and was never condescending and never said anything hurtful and had always been PURRFECT, it would not justify my going outside the marriage. Oh, I'd asked for MC long before I even knew my AP, and was rebuffed; how could I suggest that we both had things to work on? After all, she came from a good family. So yes, I am reared up...for two reasons: first, not all psychologist can be BS'd for seven years, and with that much time a good one gets a chance to draw reasonable conclusions, without the cameras, based on discounting to whatever degree what the patient says and adjusting for the biases of the patient; and it doesn't matter if my wife were horrible and I a saint, up till the affair, that would not justify the affair. My first wife spent 12-16 hours/day online chatting...and I did not have an affair...yet even if I had, I would have been in the wrong and without justification. I am in the wrong here...my wife did not create the affair nor deserve it. I would rather that we had pressed for relational integrity when we knew things weren't right a couple of years ago...I did not. MC did not make her radar till I told her I wanted to move out and get some breathing room last October, and even then, once I agreed not to, the openness to it went away till mid December. I don't understand (maybe I am just too stupid) how some people cannot get it that these are separate issues: No matter what she did or I did or did not do, there is no justifying the affair. There is however assessing a relationship and finding that at least for one of the participants, it was not worth being in, and that participant either should have gotten out, or if necessary insisted on MC as a condition to staying together. And you know what? If we talked to my wife, we might find that from her view, she felt the relationship was not worth her participation because of how I treated her. The fact of the matter is neither of us pushed hard to work on things and then I stepped (leaped, jumped, swan-dived) outside the boundaries of the marriage...and there can be no excuse or justification for it. The factors supplied by both participants are no justification, but they are a good measure of what can or cannot be tolerated within the union in the future if honest fidelity is to be maintained (dishonest fidelity being the sense that one part would really be relieved if the other party left or "worse," but that fidelity of behavior is maintained). Thats an awfully long response to a very simple statement. I never said you were lying or BSng your counselor. I said that they only base their opinions on the details that the patient chooses to share. I don't know if your trying to justify infidelity or maybe just your decision making. Doesn't matter because its not me your trying to convince. Its yourself. Has been since your first post in this thread, whether you choose to see it or not is up to you, but anything you have to try that hard to convince yourself of, has to be some kind of red flag. TOJAZ
trippi1432 Posted May 25, 2012 Posted May 25, 2012 (edited) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Previous post.... Honestly CF, you come across as someone who harbors a lot of resentment and seeks to put that on others. Your psychologist does not let you get away with BS'ing her, I think you like that challenge and in your fog, you now see the woman who loves you as a weak person...why? This speaks to itself a million volumes that I knew before ever reading the book: Your childhood = see if you can UNLEARN what you've learned Read your own posts...can you? From a different perspective? Who cares if saying "pissed off" and "f-off" aren't acceptable in 29 states, your wife calls you on that and gets less respect than your psychologist who calls you on your BS? Perhaps we should come off the theatrics of a romance novel and get down to the business of moving you beyond your affair fog? Edited May 25, 2012 by trippi1432
2sunny Posted May 25, 2012 Posted May 25, 2012 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Previous post.... Honestly CF, you come across as someone who harbors a lot of resentment and seeks to put that on others. Your psychologist does not let you get away with BS'ing her, I think you like that challenge and in your fog, you now see the woman who loves you as a weak person...why? This speaks to itself a million volumes that I knew before ever reading the book: Read your own posts...can you? From a different perspective? Who cares if saying "pissed off" and "f-off" aren't acceptable in 29 states, your wife calls you on that and gets less respect than your psychologist who calls you on your BS? Perhaps we should come off the theatrics of a romance novel and get down to the business of moving you beyond your affair fog? If the childhood you experienced isn't pleasant why would you hang on to it like it identifies you? Let go completely of what doesn't work for you! If it includes your marriage - then that goes too. A marriage that has to be forced isn't real happiness. Are you fooling yourself based on what you've learned?
Author Character Floss Posted May 25, 2012 Author Posted May 25, 2012 Yes...there is a justification issue going on, not about the affair but ending the marriage, and it is directed at me. FYI, I do respect her, even/especially when she calls me on something. So while she has her issues, she is working through things (why does she so easily retreat to having no opinion and what that might indicate on a deeper level, for example), I can say she is a wonderful woman/person. So...if I don't work and change as necessary and reunite with her...then I am just blowing off a marriage because I came to a point, years ago, when I would say she is special...just not "special to me." When she kissed me a week or two ago it was definitely something I did not want. I cannot picture myself being attracted to her, even though she is attractive. So yes, I rationalize...and enough of the story I have shared is true. At the end of the day, I cannot justify to myself leaving a marriage with an objectively terrific person "just" because I no longer derive joy or well-being from being connected to her. Stuck between my genuine views on commitment and working on things together and the fact that...being with her is no longer a source of any degree of joy/happines/I am fortunate to be yours. So shallow. Easier to stay and put myself into it if we had children together, shared assets, etc. Horrible (for her!) when she says, "Oh CF, I love you...I miss you," and my heart does not reciprocate.
Author Character Floss Posted May 25, 2012 Author Posted May 25, 2012 If the childhood you experienced isn't pleasant why would you hang on to it like it identifies you? Let go completely of what doesn't work for you! If it includes your marriage - then that goes too. A marriage that has to be forced isn't real happiness. Are you fooling yourself based on what you've learned? Yes...letting go. It is a moment-by-moment thing. Usually saying "No" when the "Yes" came out of should/expectation...but never wanting to get to the point where I ignore the REAL "SHOULDS." So...I let go...I pick up again...I read, meditate...have my "aha" moments, fail again, try again and slowly what is on the inside changes for the long term. I come back in this situation (MC) going by the rule to acknowledge/value/weigh what I feel, but not accept offhand that the feelings reflect truth or reality, or should be the basis for action. I really think committed relationships, where just walking out like taking off one's shoes is not an option, are a primary vehicle for personal growth and change that are worthwhile. In my mythology that includes "god," yes, I see the committed relationship with someone we can see as the key vehicle for growth in relationship with the One we cannot see. So I let go; I sometimes pick up again; sometimes I let go of things I was supposed to hold, etc. Blasted humanity. FYI, my wife has withdrawn since Monday, not reached out to me though we have had some interaction. First day or two it freaks me, and then it's OK, relaxing. I therefore have stopped pursuing her since yesterday...it's OK that we have no real contact. I feel so bad for her...she (like me) is so weary. We usually drive together to MC, often get dinner first, but I don't think we will do that tonight, and that is good. I think the conversation can be more honest if we aren't expecting to be together on drive back, although the counselor has made it clear he'd drive one of us if things ever blow up, but is glad we are coming together. I think it was Monday that she finally believed that my lack of particular attraction to her is not something that is her fault/hers to work on or fix, that it really is something in me. As for relationships...I do not see them as role and power defined. Far from it. Oh, in the bedroom (and in what leads to that but is played with the heart, brains, eyes, etc) it can be fun to push and be pushed, all of that, but I believe that at its best, nobody HAS to be in charge because the partners are routinely (not perfectly) seeking the best for each other. My wife first read the 50 Shades series, then other, more scholarly expositions and did hit on an important point: One author noted that all relationships are seasoned/shaped by power and power shift/struggle; so the healthiest may be those where this tension is brought out into the open and made a negotiated focus within it, rather than running its course without examination or direction. I am given to metaphors all too much (my wife even more so, and they are beautiful metaphors), and I sometimes describe my ideal view as two waves crashing together on the ocean. If you subscribe to any christian beliefs, I'll suggest how refreshing I found the view of power within the Trinity as described within "The Shack," a view thoroughly orthodox (perichoresis) but long ago abandoned as, I believe, the chuch became more formalized and needed to justify its hunger for power. Perichoresis: Perichoresis - Theopedia, an encyclopedia of Biblical Christianity
2sunny Posted May 25, 2012 Posted May 25, 2012 Start changing things up! I think it's a great idea not to drive together if that's what you normally do! Change EVERYTHING! Keep what works for YOU and toss out the things that definitely don't work for you. If holding on to something that builds resentment - consider letting that go! You touched on the basis for action. Changing everything is good action. Action should always be a part of your plan - new action brings new experiences = hope. You obviously have a handle on what is happening but are you doing enough to change things? Is your wife also? If you sit there thinking about things - that is NOT action - that is only "pondering" and doesn't change a thing! It's obvious you have thought much about it - and are capable of typing things - but how much are YOU putting action and change into your daily life? You must turn thoughts into actions for things to change.
Author Character Floss Posted May 25, 2012 Author Posted May 25, 2012 It is action again and again...and I have thought too much/done too little.
2sunny Posted May 25, 2012 Posted May 25, 2012 It is action again and again...and I have thought too much/done too little. So don't think - just DO! Wat does your gut tell you? What can YOU DO today to invoke some change?
Owl Posted May 25, 2012 Posted May 25, 2012 I've got to say, I personally do believe that you have pretty much zero remorse for what you've done, and zero desire to take responsibility (which means actively taking ownership of fixing things) in your entire situation, CF. Pesonally...I suggest divorce. You don't strike me as marriage material at this point...if ever. While your wife may be hurt/upset initially, I think that she'd be better off in the long run. And I think you would be happier that way too. So...taking action...why not actively get a hold of a lawyer and start that process. 1
Author Character Floss Posted May 25, 2012 Author Posted May 25, 2012 Owl, I admit I do not get what some mean by regret in this case...that I don't cry, or tell her that I love her? We are separated. I take care of many things for her. I intentionally spend time with her (and my stepson) even if I don't feel like it, to give opportunity for some sense of closeness to develop. If she wants to ask questions about the A (she generally hasn't yet), I answer forthrightly while looking for ways to say things that minimize the likelihood of hurting her. Maybe here's the difference between my affair and some: I did not go into the affair thinking or saying, "Oh, but I love my wife." I told my AP I would not leave my wife and we told ourselves it was just once...doing something once, and we strove not to be together sexually, which is why (with proximity, etc) we made love a half dozen times over four or five months. So if I had been saying to you or anyone, "OH, I love my wife and look what I have done," maybe that would qualify in your eyes as remorse; or would that qualify at deceit? I regret that I hurt my wife by having an affair. I regret that two years ago I did not take steps that perhaps would have preserved the joy we took in one another. I regret that rather than hurting her by the betrayal, I did not hurt her by divorce instead. I wish rather that I had done neither--no divorce, no affair--and from what I am getting through the MC, I think we could have turned things around. To me, the remorse is more of, "Look what I have lost," a way to show how much the BS is valued by the WS. My wife, as wonderful as she is, could choose to cut off all contact and ask for the divorce...and for a few days, and on/off at times, I would be bothered by it, but fundamentally I would be fine--and that includes or is predicated on there being on nobody in my life in any intimate way. I've had whisps and senses of missing her, something I haven't experienced in years (but did at one time). She does not want a divorce; she did not want MC. I think the most I could do was continue with this, breaking up with my AP and going NC (which I did) and sticking to it long enough that I am probably a part of her past, and past, only; to live as frugally as I can so she can do what she wants/needs; to pitch in with her house (she wanted to paint and do other projects); not to lie and say, "I love you," when she would know it was BS. What I don't do is throw it up in her face that I really am no longer, at this time, emotionally bound to her. I know I'm not and she doesn't need me saying something to know that. I can't change that. She has said, "I'd just as soon shoot you as look at you," and at that time meant it...but "taken it back." I've thought similar things...but never shared them. I don't want to add to her hurt. I'd agree with no remorse if I were saying, "Oh, I don't want to lose her and our life together" and not changing at all. Instead I am changing, learning how to ask questions when I don't understand her, to be patient as she sorts through her thoughts and looks for words, avoiding saying things that may be true but would cause her hurt--and which do not need to be said...and when in the short run, at the very least, I would be relieved (or something more positive) by a divorce, not pursuing it...but regarding that voice that says, "But I want out of this" as a selfish little kid rather than a man who is trying to be honest; a man is there to honor his commitments, period. The one thing cannot give her is my heart. It's not hers; it's not there for her; one day it may be again. So I give her whatever else I can. I can keep from talking to another woman, etc., etc., and not have another affair. Sure I can. At some point she may decide, "CF, all I want is your heart, and if you can't give that to me, then there's no basis for our marriage." Or she may believe that as long as I honor my commitment of fidelity, then reuniting without it being from the heart, but from the conscience is fine and perhaps in ten years we'll both say that we are so thankful we did, I will genuinely love her and express that gratitude daily. You know, if I said, "I don't love her, really, but it's convenient so I'm going to have A's when I want to and keep this going," or, "I love her but I need this," hell, I'd say (especially with the latter) that there was no remorse. I asked for the divorce in March, after a month of separation; she has said please don't, let's continue working on it. I will not have an A. The evening I broke up with my AP she was flabberghasted, and wanted to come to my place for "good-bye sex. I was on the fence...and I told her we could come up to my place for the night...but I wasn't going to lie; first I was going to text my wife and let her know that I could not put aside the A, as that would have led to the divorce. She (the AP) could then decide in the morning if she still wanted me, even though I was able to end a marriage to be with her (bad sign), or not, but my wife and I would be through. Ann chose against that path, thinking I was doing the right thing. I wasn't noble or anything, and gawd I wanted her, and not just for the night; but I had told my wife I would end it, and was not about to lie to my wife by going back to bed with Ann and not telling her; but I was willing to do that and let my wife know, first. I don't know how to do better...
2sunny Posted May 25, 2012 Posted May 25, 2012 You're not really in the M and you're not really out either. That's what's NOT noble about your behavior! Your indecision is showing your lack of character. Your wife and your AP are still hurting from your fence sitting! Nothing about your indecision is right.
Owl Posted May 25, 2012 Posted May 25, 2012 I don't know how to do better... And given that answer...after several threads of advice...is why I feel that reconciliation is a waste of time. Divorce is the best option I see here for all.
2sunny Posted May 25, 2012 Posted May 25, 2012 You use too many words to convey a concise and clear message. That is usually by design! It clouds the message! And I don't buy you seeing your counselor for 7 years has helped. IF the counselor was EFFECTIVELY helping you - the work would have shown much more change in YOU within a much shorter span of time. At this point - that counselor isn't helping you -only making money off you. So really - he/she is actually BSIng YOU into thinking you are improving - when you're not! The evidence is there. 7 years and you're still fence sitting and taking the ego feed. Bottom line is - get a NEW counselor and start making DECISIONS and sticking with the decisions based upon PRINICIPLES! Your cake eating ways aren't looking pretty on you. Any counselor should have told you to DO something and quit hurting two women. 1
tojaz Posted May 26, 2012 Posted May 26, 2012 Yes...there is a justification issue going on, not about the affair but ending the marriage, and it is directed at me. FYI, I do respect her, even/especially when she calls me on something. So while she has her issues, she is working through things (why does she so easily retreat to having no opinion and what that might indicate on a deeper level, for example), I can say she is a wonderful woman/person. So...if I don't work and change as necessary and reunite with her...then I am just blowing off a marriage because I came to a point, years ago, when I would say she is special...just not "special to me." When she kissed me a week or two ago it was definitely something I did not want. I cannot picture myself being attracted to her, even though she is attractive. So yes, I rationalize...and enough of the story I have shared is true. At the end of the day, I cannot justify to myself leaving a marriage with an objectively terrific person "just" because I no longer derive joy or well-being from being connected to her. Stuck between my genuine views on commitment and working on things together and the fact that...being with her is no longer a source of any degree of joy/happines/I am fortunate to be yours. So shallow. Easier to stay and put myself into it if we had children together, shared assets, etc. Horrible (for her!) when she says, "Oh CF, I love you...I miss you," and my heart does not reciprocate. If you take the time to scrutinize anything long enough, you will see the flaws in it clearer then you will see the whole. Take a fine piece of art, you view it for appreciation and pleasure you see flowing lines, the story behind the image, interplay of color, subtle shading and tones all mixed to create a masterpiece. Take the same piece of art from a more critical eye. You look closer, you see the rough textures in the brush strokes, uneven lines, mars in the paint, flecks of dirt that were released from a brush past its prime, so you look closer to find even more flaws. The work of art becomes meaningless and it becomes a sum of its parts unfairly compared to real life or a photograph. You have put yourself into a position to compare and your trying hard to find the flaws, but one is clear and you are well aquainted with every brush stroke, the other you are viewing through a viel.... or fog. I have thought too much/done too little. Interesting thing about education, we get to choose what we educate ourselves on, and we choose to suit our own needs at the moment. If I need to fix my car, I can go, buy a book, and fix it. I could just as easily select a book on fine cuisine and eventually cook a fine meal, or learn construction and put an addition on my house. You have chosen to educate yourself on the flaws of your marriage because the suited your purposes at the time, and then you brought that new found knowledge here looking for others to support your decision. When you didn't find that, all other possibilities had already been closed off... leaving you in limbo, unable to move forward with your decision but also unable to go back. I would suggest that your next "field of study" be an honest and unbiased look at why you make the decisions you do and if you agree with that process once there is a clear understanding of it. TOJAZ
2sunny Posted May 26, 2012 Posted May 26, 2012 I would suggest that your next "field of study" be an honest and unbiased look at why you make the decisions you do and if you agree with that process once there is a clear understanding of it. Actually - the issue seems to be that he DOESN'T make decisions. He plays several women along but doesn't actually decide who he's going to commit to. So his INdecision is the issue. And he's been going to a counselor for 7 years but believes the counselor is great - when actually he isn't changing at all. No growth. Just inaction and waiting for "others" to get sick of his $hit and decide for him. Very passive aggressive- very self entitled- very self absorbed - and very much conflict avoidant. Doing SOMETHING - ANYTHING - is better than nothing at all. But you want to be capable of BLAMING someone else for what chaos YOU HAVE CREATED. This works for you, yes?
tojaz Posted May 26, 2012 Posted May 26, 2012 Actually - the issue seems to be that he DOESN'T make decisions. He plays several women along but doesn't actually decide who he's going to commit to. So his INdecision is the issue. And he's been going to a counselor for 7 years but believes the counselor is great - when actually he isn't changing at all. No growth. Just inaction and waiting for "others" to get sick of his $hit and decide for him. Very passive aggressive- very self entitled- very self absorbed - and very much conflict avoidant. Doing SOMETHING - ANYTHING - is better than nothing at all. But you want to be capable of BLAMING someone else for what chaos YOU HAVE CREATED. This works for you, yes? Agreed, under the caveat that choosing not to make a decision IS a decision in itself. CF seems to be seeking a position of safety by putting himself in positions where he has a measure of control but very little responsibility. Passiveness with his wife creates a context where he can describe her as controlling. A lack of decision making relieves him of any consequences for those choices, yet he defends that position very vigilantly, as he does an affair where he finds himself in a caretaker role where someone defers to him yet being an affair his involvement can be limited or cut off at any time to suit his needs. CF I also read you looking for a lot of validation and reassurance in your posts, something a caretaker role would provide but a passive role would undermine. The key piece of the puzzle is that they are both positions CF created for himself. TOJAZ
2sunny Posted May 26, 2012 Posted May 26, 2012 Best to step away from BOTH women and find his authentic self. Not the self that is based on ANY role he plays for a woman. And find a new therapist. One that encourages you to OWN how YOU participate - and one that encourages change in you by taking action instead of no action. This would be DOING instead of "thinking". Thinking doesn't change things... I think you have evidence of that. You need to figure out what it is you are looking for from these women ---> and then learn how to get THAT from YOURSELF! 1
Author Character Floss Posted May 26, 2012 Author Posted May 26, 2012 I cut off the A and all contact, in its entirety, about ten weeks ago; and I did so deliberately and without equivocation. So yes, having the affair in the first place hurt two women. Sorry, but I haven't been stringing "women" along. If my wife had agreed that divorce made sense, we'd be divorced by now. That doesn't mean I could not have proceeded without her consent. Seven years with psychologist: mmm, about three years dealing with specific issues, then a break of some three or four years, so yes, something going back seven years, but not continuous, not without change. However, all her direction to me is on making decisions for myself, owning them fully and not paying so much attention to what might be expected of me. So I think she is on the same page with you. The MC is the one advocating the indecision of the moment. His message is one of slow down, keep peeling back the layers till you can make the best informed decision, showing why it is right, for your participation in the marriage. He doesn't think either of us are anywhere near ready (having enough true knowledge of one another or self) to make a sound decision that years from now we can look back on and be satisfied with. Tonight he said, plainly and in these words, that he has told my wife that the reason for the slow progress in our MC is her inability/unwillingness to examine uncomfortable situations without balling up into a defensive posture. So I guess I've got him buffaloed too, but it's been a challenge with him meeting with both of us together, and individually, not for IC per se (conflict) but for elements related to MC that are best tackled one-on-one. So no...not stringing AP along. Said good-bye, cut it off, deleted all emails, the secret email account, etc...I believe it was the right thing to do.
Author Character Floss Posted May 26, 2012 Author Posted May 26, 2012 2Sunny...categorically, I don't want anything from my wife...haven't in a long time. That's the problem. And since I don't have anything to do with the other woman, I'm not sure how she is relevant. You are absolutely right about supplying myself with what I have sought from others. That is the essence of what I have called self-parenting.
tojaz Posted May 26, 2012 Posted May 26, 2012 2Sunny...categorically, I don't want anything from my wife...haven't in a long time. That's the problem. And since I don't have anything to do with the other woman, I'm not sure how she is relevant. You are absolutely right about supplying myself with what I have sought from others. That is the essence of what I have called self-parenting. So CF, you have written pages stating and defending the things you don't want. What is it that you do? TOJAZ
2sunny Posted May 26, 2012 Posted May 26, 2012 And what about your W? You state clearly that you don't love her. Don't intend to be with her. So why not get honest and end it? And I don't agree with your therapist "peeling back the layers" before any move is made. We LEARN what we want and don't want by errors we make too. Sometimes I learn more from what I did wrong than what I did right. In the end - I'm never sorry that I'm actually DOING something rather than nothing. Have you always been a conflict avoider?
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