Is It Worth It To Date the "Nice Guy"?

[d'Arthez]

The problem is, those same guys are carrying a massive chip on their shoulder... they have years of bitterness about how women ignored them, or how they weren't hot or good enough. So when a woman comes along who does like them, they either sabotage it by pulling out some weird version of who they think the girl wants, OR they ditch the girl when she doesn't magically validate them.

Those are just guys pretending to be nice. A genuine guy, is not bitter, does not actively sabotage the relationship or seeks external validation for their existence. I can understand that women get frustrated about these boys.

 

For example, I am an average girl, which would seem to be good enough for the average guy. But "nice guys" get upset that they can only attract girls like me, instead of the hot girl who validates their existence and wipes away the years of rejection.

Average girl is good enough for average guy. Problem is that people often tend to become jaded by their dating and romantic experiences, especially if they did not turn out as well as they anticipated. In the case of the "nice guy", rather than looking within and working on their shortcomings, they blame women for their "bad luck" in dating.

 

So, I like nice guys, but I am getting sick of having to deal with their baggage, and then also getting dumped in the process. (And blamed as "not good enough.")

Time for you to date a real man V. I am sure that the right man for you could make you happy, and you could make him happy. The difficult bit will be finding him.

[Woggle]

I don't think you can lump all nice guys to having a chip on their shoulder. I for one am confident who I am, what I have to offer and will not change by nice guy personality for anyone. I have no chip, just self confidence. I have no bitterness because these so called "hot girls" usually come with more baggage then Continental Airlines and later in life their looks can only get them so far. And same goes for the men, it is not a gender issue.

 

I agree. Let these women have their jerks who will pump and dump them and then later become plastic surgery disasters in a last ditch attempt to keep these men from cheating on them.

[verhrzn]

I don't think you can lump all nice guys to having a chip on their shoulder. I for one am confident who I am, what I have to offer and will not change by nice guy personality for anyone. I have no chip, just self confidence. I have no bitterness because these so called "hot girls" usually come with more baggage then Continental Airlines and later in life their looks can only get them so far. And same goes for the men, it is not a gender issue.

 

That's why I tried to draw a difference between nice guy, and Nice Guy. I am talking about Nice Guys, with capitals.

[Woggle]

Yeah... and on the very rare occasion I've broken it off with a Nice Guy (guys I dated less than 2 months), watch the claws come out, even if it's for a perfectly valid reason, like, oh, they aren't that into me.

 

That might be a whole new thread but, the more I read about Pick-Up Artists, the more I realize that I have a handful of guys who actually used those tactics on me in the past.... and my reaction, instead of jumping into bed with them, was to logically assume, Oh, you're not into me, I'm moving on. And then suddenly they get all snarky and vindictive.

 

... I think I'm answering my own question here about whether "Nice Guys" are worth it.

 

It's because they were convinced women were a certain way and you shattered the stereotype. The sincere approach didn't work before so they assumed it would not work with you.

 

They are no different than women who assume every man will cheat.

[verhrzn]

It's because they were convinced women were a certain way and you shattered the stereotype. The sincere approach didn't work before so they assumed it would not work with you.

 

The sheer irony that they lost a girl who genuinely liked them because they tried to game me, assuming I wouldn't like if they were genuine, is kind of delicious.

[Woggle]

The sheer irony that they lost a girl who genuinely liked them because they tried to game me, assuming I wouldn't like if they were genuine, is kind of delicious.

 

Because they don't believe it is real. After all I have been through with women in the past I still have a hard time wrapping my brain around the fact that my wife is for real. Logically I know she is but it blows my mind sometimes that a woman actually is happy in a sincere and drama free relationship.

[wordrock]

I kind of hate the term 'nice guy' and the association that such men have little confidence or are not successful with women. I have confidence about myself and am often told I am "too nice" by some women and guy friends, but that has not prevented me from being in relationships, or attracting women.

 

If anything, my 'niceness' is more of a traditional definition of the word. It usually has connotations of affection, empathy, respect, manners, and chivalry. Ie, I always try to make a woman feel comfortable in my presence and not act overly aggressive. I do come off as a bit reserved at times, but I tend to surprise women with my candidness and ability to express myself. My desire to show affection with my mates has led them to describe me as 'nice' but in a very positive use of the word.

 

Anyway! Not trying to make this about me. I guess I'm saying that the whole 'nice guy' persona has more to do with a lack of confidence and inexperience with relationships and women.

 

I think a more accurate term to use is "men without confidence around women".

 

"Nice guy" is just a nice way of saying that. Considering how many so called 'nice guys' act bitter and seem to have very negative and black/white opinions of the female sex, I don't think they should be given such leeway. Just because you're afraid to approach women, it doesn't mean you're NICE. It means your ability to communicate attraction is sending mixed signals to women. They can't tell the difference between you and just some polite person saying hello or talking about the weather.

[wordrock]

That might be a whole new thread but, the more I read about Pick-Up Artists, the more I realize that I have a handful of guys who actually used those tactics on me in the past.... and my reaction, instead of jumping into bed with them, was to logically assume, Oh, you're not into me, I'm moving on. And then suddenly they get all snarky and vindictive.

 

PUA guys are hilarious. They're a huge joke in one circle of my friends which includes some very intelligent women. They often talk about very socially awkward guys very obviously attempting to use PUA strategies they learned from some website etc...

 

I think it's worth it for any woman who is trying to date to read up on that stuff so they'll understand why some guys lately have been acting so strange in general. I won't deny that some of that crap can work for certain types of guys with certain types of women, but hearing a bunch of idiots talking about it like it's some kind of secret one true religion is straight up funny.

[Necris]

"Nice Guys" have always been sort of fascinating to me, I think partially because I hang out in a lot of nerdy circles. These are the guys that are not successful (or are not successful in the specific ways they would like) with women, and usually point to their "niceness" or women's myriad of undesirable qualities (shallowness and lack of understanding about reciprocity seem to be the biggest themes) as the reason for their failure.

 

In an attempt to understand my friends and the guys I routinely run into, I've also done a lot of reading on things from the perspective of "Nice Guys": letters dressing down the hot girl who ignores them, PUA forums, and forums like this.

 

Superficially, I feel a lot of sympathy for the guys I read about. I emphasize, because I think I'm kind of the girl version of the "Nice Guy" (the big differences is I don't do try to "jump ladders"; if a guy isn't interested in me, I don't remain his friend.)

 

A lot of times, I almost feel like I should single-handedly take it upon myself to help these guys... that I should find the den of "Nice Guys" in my city and show them that there are girls out there who aren't "shallow," who would happily date short, awkward nerdy guys.

 

But every time I've tried it... dated a "Nice Guy" who the hot girls ignored but I treasured... it ended in me feeling horrible about myself. Because the thing is, the "Nice Guys" don't want me. Why? Because I am the female embodiment of them.

 

I think of my male friends, who complain about how the only women they can get are the "fat and ugly" ones, but are perhaps not male models themselves. And I feel stung and hopeless about the whole hypocritical nature of it all; they the "Nice Guys" feel entitled to hot women dating down, but will not give a fat "Nice Girl" the time of day.

 

I've realized that going for "Nice Guys" has done nothing but repeatedly destroyed my self-esteem. And yet I still feel drawn to help them. I still feel like they are my equal, and that it is somehow my duty, as a woman, to show them my lack of superficiality, even though they reject me without a second thought.

 

So here's my question... is it ever worth it to date a "Nice Guy"? Is it just a mirror-world version of dating a jerk... that same scenario where you hope he changes? (That the "Nice Guy" would recognize my love and change from embittered to self-loving.) If it isn't worth it to date a "Nice Guy," then what is a "Nice Girl" to do? Who, then, should she date, since her supposed social equal won't have her?

 

Interesting. It seems that you are actually just dating socially awkward guys not actual nice guys. Also your reason for dating them seems flawed as well you seem to feel some degree of pity and want to help them.

 

I'm a nice guy myself but I'm just naturally that way I'm just naturally nice to people so naturally I don't act like the guys you mentioned. The problem isn't actually niceness truthfully many women don't seem to care so much about how nice a man is, its more about attraction, the reason it seems jerks get women is due to being attractive and women will tolerate the jerkiness to be with an attractive guy, while an unattractive nice guy or jerk gets passed up.

 

Your story reminds me of myself going out to date this nerdy shy woman. She seemed lonely, nerdy, and shared similar interests to me and she wasn't ugly (she wasn't a model or anything just average) so I thought it was a little weird she was lonely turns out she was a bit insane and had no attraction towards me whatsoever (that part was normal, women aren't attracted to me the crazy part was pretty out there though).

[wordrock]

Your story reminds me of myself going out to date this nerdy shy woman. She seemed lonely, nerdy, and shared similar interests to me and she wasn't ugly (she wasn't a model or anything just average) so I thought it was a little weird she was lonely turns out she was a bit insane and had no attraction towards me whatsoever (that part was normal, women aren't attracted to me the crazy part was pretty out there though).

 

How do you know she had no attraction to you? Some women have very mixed up emotions and are very insecure about their own bodies. This can make their intentions very confusing if you're not patient. Also, everyone is a 'bit insane'. If you haven't realized this yet, you are not yet emotionally mature.

[SJC2008]

Because they don't believe it is real. After all I have been through with women in the past I still have a hard time wrapping my brain around the fact that my wife is for real. Logically I know she is but it blows my mind sometimes that a woman actually is happy in a sincere and drama free relationship.

 

And that boils down to the women like a challegne IMO. You could be in a GREAT relationship and some women will find a way to stir some $**** up because it has to be a work in progress lol. They want you to open up to them but they want to have to pry it out of you! At least that's what I've read lol bc I've never been in a R.

 

Anyway op what is a "nice guy" to you?? You say it's a guy that can't get a hot girl but if that was the case most men would be nice guys. Is there a certain characteristic a man has that makes him nice that you haven't dated before?

[Els]

I really, really don't think it's a wise idea to enter into an R out of a 'sense of duty' to 'show someone that not all girls are shallow' etc. Don't choose men based on their stereotypes and leagues, V. Choose them based on what resides inside.

[Woggle]

And that boils down to the women like a challegne IMO. You could be in a GREAT relationship and some women will find a way to stir some $**** up because it has to be a work in progress lol. They want you to open up to them but they want to have to pry it out of you! At least that's what I've read lol bc I've never been in a R.

 

Anyway op what is a "nice guy" to you?? You say it's a guy that can't get a hot girl but if that was the case most men would be nice guys. Is there a certain characteristic a man has that makes him nice that you haven't dated before?

 

I truly feel my wife is different. I really lucked out this time.

[Necris]

How do you know she had no attraction to you? Some women have very mixed up emotions and are very insecure about their own bodies. This can make their intentions very confusing if you're not patient. Also, everyone is a 'bit insane'. If you haven't realized this yet, you are not yet emotionally mature.

 

She told me let's be friends and she never talked to me again (I was totally cool with it though but kinda wished I hadn't wasted my time and money).

 

As for being crazy believe me if you dated her you'll think she's crazy or trying to play a joke on you as well normal people simply don't yell out their gay man on man sex orgy fantasies and try to insinuate their date is gay while also loudly proclaiming support for the Nazis in the middle of a restaurant.

[grkBoy]

So here's my question... is it ever worth it to date a "Nice Guy"? Is it just a mirror-world version of dating a jerk... that same scenario where you hope he changes? (That the "Nice Guy" would recognize my love and change from embittered to self-loving.) If it isn't worth it to date a "Nice Guy," then what is a "Nice Girl" to do? Who, then, should she date, since her supposed social equal won't have her?

 

There's two types of "nice guys":

 

1) Guys who are genuinely kind, good-natured, but perhaps don't "excite" women enough into dating. Regardless, they enjoy life and not put such a heavy burden on themselves when thinking of dating...meaning they can live happily alone or with just friendships. They would love to be in love with a good woman, but they don't feel they "failed" in life if they never meet Ms Right.

 

2) Guys who are honestly "ugly" in many ways (inside and/or out), but claim they're "nice guys" because they happen to kiss a woman's butt in the hopes she'll "reward" him. You peel back the layers and they have no spine, no scruples, and even see "being nice" as merely some ploy they feel they must do to get a girl...but can't figure out why it's not working for them.

 

These guys see "getting a girl" as their primary goal in life. They'll go through hell and do anything and everything they can to get someone. You'll notice they can't talk about much in life other than their misery in trying to find someone.

 

I'll also say in many ways these guys are the male version of the girls who chase "bad boys", jerks, playas, etc...and will go through hell desperately trying to make these guys love her. Seriously...if women were using men left and right for sex, there would be no difference between these "nice guys" and what I call "bad boy chasers". They both have low self-esteem, and obsess about finding love.

 

 

Don't feel bad vehrzn. This is why I get very harsh not only on bad boy chasing women here, but also on spineless nice guys who keep whining on why the world ins't fair. I got to the point long ago that I can't be like them anymore, and I try to tell them consistently how to "free themselves" of the self-induced misery they put on themselves.

 

Your scenario speaks loudly why many women don't "give the nice guy a chance".

[wordrock]

She told me let's be friends and she never talked to me again (I was totally cool with it though but kinda wished I hadn't wasted my time and money).

 

As for being crazy believe me if you dated her you'll think she's crazy or trying to play a joke on you as well normal people simply don't yell out their gay man on man sex orgy fantasies and try to insinuate their date is gay while also loudly proclaiming support for the Nazis in the middle of a restaurant.

 

That's not a 'bit insane', that is either plain insane, drunk or on drugs, or she really didn't think much of you and was trying to **** around.

[Necris]

she really didn't think much of you and was trying to **** around.

 

I think it was this. When I told my friends about her they thought this as well.

 

Oh well for me this isn't the first time someone went on a date with me just to mess with me like this one girl I went on a "date" with who never showed up and it turns out it was some sort of joke that time I should have known though a girl heavily flirting with me is just too good to be true.

[d'Arthez]

I should have known though a girl heavily flirting with me is just too good to be true.

That is not true. Some women do toy with you, others may be dead serious. The same definitely applies to men as well. In your case, sadly, it was a woman toying with you. But that is more telling of her than of you.

 

The difficulty is of course telling one apart from the other. And that is where we all make mistakes, from time to time. As annoying as it is to waste some time to find out someone is immature, you'll learn to pick up the cues of "fake interest" soon enough.

 

Don't let yourself become jaded.

[Julesy]

Is nice code name for desperate in this context? Those guys don't sound remotely nice. Maybe it's because they have too many issues so they become bitter people.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Julesy

[LittlePrince]

Why bother? Nice guys have already lost the race unlike winners such as ourselves. High five?

[Eternal Sunshine]

My experience with dating nice guys has been poor. All my life, I wanted to date a "nice guy". You know, someone that is sweet and sensitive and romantic and does nice things for me. Jerks never had any appeal, yet they were all I seemed to meet.

 

My ex describes himself as a stereotypical nice guy. He didn't do well with women and in fact he only had one sexual relationship before me (he initially lied and said that it was more). I thought all my dreams came true when I met him. I was even willing to forgo the lack of physical chemistry that I felt.

 

At first, he was great. He complained how all girls wanted macho men and how he was really worried to open up to me because he was acting to be more mucho than he really is to impress me (I didn't even notice).

 

To build up his self esteem, I complimented him on everything, from looks to personality. And boy, was his self-esteem built. But then, when he comfortably had me in the bag...he started wondering, if he managed to get me, can he do better? Can he perhaps find a super-hottie? Since we lived together and were together 24/7, he shared those thoughts. He shared how he would walk down the street and see a hot girl and wonder if she would date him. Even though he is far from model himself, I never to this day said anything negative about his appearance to him. But boy, did he criticise mine.

 

He was picking on little things, how he wanted me to wear lingerie to bed every evening (he on the other hand had 1 same pair of flannel pyjamas that he wore every night), just tons of stuff that I already shared on here. At parties, he would over-flirt with other women (only hot ones mind you, he never flirted with fat ones). During NYE before the break up, he pulled some random girl on his lap in front of me. I walked out in disgust. etc etc

 

The point is, most guys are nice because they have no options - they use it as manipulation ploy to get people., but as soon as they get some leverage, they turn meaner than the meanest jerk. In the end, the worst jerks that I dated didn't criticise me and my appearance to this extent ever.

 

Would I ever date a guy that calls himself nice, is insecure and was repeatedly rejected by women in the past again? NO, HELL NO.

[LittlePrince]

My experience with dating nice guys has been poor. All my life, I wanted to date a "nice guy". You know, someone that is sweet and sensitive and romantic and does nice things for me. Jerks never had any appeal, yet they were all I seemed to meet.

 

My ex describes himself as a stereotypical nice guy. He didn't do well with women and in fact he only had one sexual relationship before me (he initially lied and said that it was more). I thought all my dreams came true when I met him. I was even willing to forgo the lack of physical chemistry that I felt.

 

At first, he was great. He complained how all girls wanted macho men and how he was really worried to open up to me because he was acting to be more mucho than he really is to impress me (I didn't even notice).

 

To build up his self esteem, I complimented him on everything, from looks to personality. And boy, was his self-esteem built. But then, when he comfortably had me in the bag...he started wondering, if he managed to get me, can he do better? Can he perhaps find a super-hottie? Since we lived together and were together 24/7, he shared those thoughts. He shared how he would walk down the street and see a hot girl and wonder if she would date him. Even though he is far from model himself, I never to this day said anything negative about his appearance to him. But boy, did he criticise mine.

 

He was picking on little things, how he wanted me to wear lingerie to bed every evening (he on the other hand had 1 same pair of flannel pyjamas that he wore every night), just tons of stuff that I already shared on here. At parties, he would over-flirt with other women (only hot ones mind you, he never flirted with fat ones). During NYE before the break up, he pulled some random girl on his lap in front of me. I walked out in disgust. etc etc

 

The point is, most guys are nice because they have no options - they use it as manipulation ploy to get people., but as soon as they get some leverage, they turn meaner than the meanest jerk. In the end, the worst jerks that I dated didn't criticise me and my appearance to this extent ever.

 

Would I ever date a guy that calls himself nice, is insecure and was repeatedly rejected by women in the past again? NO, HELL NO.

Do you see what you did? You turned a nice guy into a jerk, ya jerk. Thanks a lot.

[d'Arthez]

Would I ever date a guy that calls himself nice, is insecure and was repeatedly rejected by women in the past again? NO, HELL NO.

The problem for most women is how to distinguish the "nice guy" from the genuine guy (the other way around happens as well, but since the thread is about nice guys, let's stick to that). Especially since you want to believe that the "nice guy" is genuine. Once you have made the emotional investment, and the relationship lasts longer it becomes harder to part ways. After a certain amount of time you may even start to question your own sanity (nice, nice guy! ), and still decide to continue the relationship. Because he is so ... "nice".

 

If you get screwed over a couple of times, it must undoubtedly affect your self-perception and the issues you yourself bring into the relationship. Which may negatively impact on the type of man you pick for your next relationship. At the same time the Nice Guy keeps on complaining about women, and he reconstrues his actions as say "constrictive comments", until the next unfortunate woman falls into that trap.

 

That is why I'd strongly advise anyone not to jump into relationships, especially if they have major unresolved issues. For one thing, the relationship may feed one's issues. Another concern is that one can create a nasty codependent relationship, in which both partners are comfortable with their dysfunction. Not healthy.

[LittlePrince]

What she came across is no different than what women do. A "cute" girl acts cute only to get what she wants just as this "nice" guy acts nice just to get what he wants. Neither is legitimately a nice guy or cute girl. That's their procreative strategy whether they consciously devised it, it came about through the series of positive and negative reinforcements in their lives, or it is a product of genetics.

[Eternal Sunshine]

Yes D'A, I questioned my own sanity on the nice guy ex. He bought my mum flowers the first time he met her. All my friends, everyone was going on about how nice he was.

 

But in private, it was a different story. He picked on my looks and behavior; and when I questioned him on why; his reply was always "I am just being honest. Didn't you say honesty is important to you?" So yeah, I would think "Perhaps he is right, if he is thinking those things, I am better off knowing. He is an honest guy, isn't that lovely?" :sick: