Is It Worth It To Date the "Nice Guy"?

[verhrzn]

"Nice Guys" have always been sort of fascinating to me, I think partially because I hang out in a lot of nerdy circles. These are the guys that are not successful (or are not successful in the specific ways they would like) with women, and usually point to their "niceness" or women's myriad of undesirable qualities (shallowness and lack of understanding about reciprocity seem to be the biggest themes) as the reason for their failure.

 

In an attempt to understand my friends and the guys I routinely run into, I've also done a lot of reading on things from the perspective of "Nice Guys": letters dressing down the hot girl who ignores them, PUA forums, and forums like this.

 

Superficially, I feel a lot of sympathy for the guys I read about. I emphasize, because I think I'm kind of the girl version of the "Nice Guy" (the big differences is I don't do try to "jump ladders"; if a guy isn't interested in me, I don't remain his friend.)

 

A lot of times, I almost feel like I should single-handedly take it upon myself to help these guys... that I should find the den of "Nice Guys" in my city and show them that there are girls out there who aren't "shallow," who would happily date short, awkward nerdy guys.

 

But every time I've tried it... dated a "Nice Guy" who the hot girls ignored but I treasured... it ended in me feeling horrible about myself. Because the thing is, the "Nice Guys" don't want me. Why? Because I am the female embodiment of them.

 

I think of my male friends, who complain about how the only women they can get are the "fat and ugly" ones, but are perhaps not male models themselves. And I feel stung and hopeless about the whole hypocritical nature of it all; they the "Nice Guys" feel entitled to hot women dating down, but will not give a fat "Nice Girl" the time of day.

 

I've realized that going for "Nice Guys" has done nothing but repeatedly destroyed my self-esteem. And yet I still feel drawn to help them. I still feel like they are my equal, and that it is somehow my duty, as a woman, to show them my lack of superficiality, even though they reject me without a second thought.

 

So here's my question... is it ever worth it to date a "Nice Guy"? Is it just a mirror-world version of dating a jerk... that same scenario where you hope he changes? (That the "Nice Guy" would recognize my love and change from embittered to self-loving.) If it isn't worth it to date a "Nice Guy," then what is a "Nice Girl" to do? Who, then, should she date, since her supposed social equal won't have her?

[Woggle]

So the only reason you date them is out of pity and then you complain that you are not their first choice? Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

[verhrzn]

So the only reason you date them is out of pity and then you complain that you are not their first choice? Isn't that a bit hypocritical?

 

It's not pity. Sympathy and empathy are not the same things as pity. Pity suggests that I feel superior to them, when I do not. I feel equal to them, kindred, one of the same. I date them because I genuinely enjoy them AND feel similarly about living in society that assigns certain boxes. "Nice Guys" seem to feel they are "less masculine" according to social norms, and I feel "less feminine." I feel similarly bitter about living in a society that places high emphasis on looks, etc.

[Woggle]

It's not pity. Sympathy and empathy are not the same things as pity. Pity suggests that I feel superior to them, when I do not. I feel equal to them, kindred, one of the same. I date them because I genuinely enjoy them AND feel similarly about living in society that assigns certain boxes. "Nice Guys" seem to feel they are "less masculine" according to social norms, and I feel "less feminine." I feel similarly bitter about living in a society that places high emphasis on looks, etc.

 

But are you dating them because you are attracted to them? Men can sense this stuff.

[somedude81]

Have you actually dated "nice guys." From what I've read, you dated guys who ended up being players and other guys who were downright disrespectful to you, that's basically, not a nice guy, if you know what I mean.

 

But every time I've tried it... dated a "Nice Guy" who the hot girls ignored but I treasured... it ended in me feeling horrible about myself. Because the thing is, the "Nice Guys" don't want me. Why? Because I am the female embodiment of them.

A woman being nerdy and awkward does not make her undesirable.

 

 

I think of my male friends, who complain about how the only women they can get are the "fat and ugly" ones

Being fat and ugly does.

 

but are perhaps not male models themselves.

So people are only, models or ugly. No in between, no normal?

[verhrzn]

But are you dating them because you are attracted to them? Men can sense this stuff.

 

I already said I love awkward nerdy guys. I am genuinely attracted to kind of shy men.

[Woggle]

I already said I love awkward nerdy guys. I am genuinely attracted to kind of shy men.

 

Maybe you are ran into some jerks but not all men like that are like these guys.

[zengirl]

"Nice Guys" have always been sort of fascinating to me, I think partially because I hang out in a lot of nerdy circles. These are the guys that are not successful (or are not successful in the specific ways they would like) with women, and usually point to their "niceness" or women's myriad of undesirable qualities (shallowness and lack of understanding about reciprocity seem to be the biggest themes) as the reason for their failure.

 

Eh, those guys are in plenty of other circles too. I know some guys like that, and they aren't even nerdy. I've never noticed a lot of that in my nerdier circles, where I don't know any guys who've had such perpetual trouble. (Doesn't mean that doesn't exist --- the nerds I know are just kind of good at life. Some are, some aren't, IRL. That's just my circle.) Anyway, those guys aren't really 'nice' -- they're actually just passive, weak jerks who are mad they can't be the top jerks.

 

ACTUALLY nice & kind men generally don't think like that, thick or thin, and generally do a bit better with women, IME.

 

But every time I've tried it... dated a "Nice Guy" who the hot girls ignored but I treasured... it ended in me feeling horrible about myself. Because the thing is, the "Nice Guys" don't want me. Why? Because I am the female embodiment of them.

 

Well, I think there are other problems in there, really, if dating such a man. As I said, anyone who acts that way ISN'T nice, and if you are a version of that than you aren't nice either.

 

I've realized that going for "Nice Guys" has done nothing but repeatedly destroyed my self-esteem. And yet I still feel drawn to help them. I still feel like they are my equal, and that it is somehow my duty, as a woman, to show them my lack of superficiality, even though they reject me without a second thought.

 

This is because you are attracted to opportunities for rejection that reinforce your own self-image. Work on that -- the other thread you had in Personal Development speaks better to those issues. It's also because those guys don't want to see that women aren't superficial or whatever; they want to be angry. The attitude you're speaking of comes from repressed, tensely compacted ANGER that such men don't feel empowered to express appropriately.

 

"Nice guys" like that ARE jerks. They are just a twisted, darker form of jerk.

[KathyM]

These nice guy average joes may pursue women who are "above their league", but normally, those types are turned down by more attractive women, so these guys realize if they want a relationship, they better aim for more realistic standards based on what they have to offer. If you live in an area where there is a significant disproportion of women to men, it may be a bit different, but I think this is generally the case--people date those that are similar in what they have to offer, unless that person has something significantly great about them that attracts someone more attractive than themselves, like an amazing personality, high status job, etc.

[verhrzn]

Have you actually dated "nice guys." From what I've read, you dated guys who ended up being players and other guys who were downright disrespectful to you, that's basically, not a nice guy, if you know what I mean.

 

They started off as "Nice Guys" who had the exact same complaints that guys on this board do... Girls not liking them because they're too nice/sweet, hot girls ignore them, etc. My love and affection boosted their confidence, at which time girls DID start liking them, so they turned into players.

 

For reference sake, I put "Nice Guys" in quotations and caps to differentiate between nice guys and "Nice Guys." Nice guys are ones who are just genuinely nice, and generally don't have problems with girls. "Nice Guys" are ones who blame their failures on their niceness, who consider themselves victims of attractive women.

[zengirl]

They started off as "Nice Guys" who had the exact same complaints that guys on this board do... Girls not liking them because they're too nice/sweet, hot girls ignore them, etc. My love and affection boosted their confidence, at which time girls DID start liking them, so they turned into players.

 

For reference sake, I put "Nice Guys" in quotations and caps to differentiate between nice guys and "Nice Guys." Nice guys are ones who are just genuinely nice, and generally don't have problems with girls. "Nice Guys" are ones who blame their failures on their niceness, who consider themselves victims of attractive women.

 

Right, such men think being "nice" will get them something and then get upset when it doesn't. Therefore, they were never really nice, and they just don't get it. My advice to you is to stay away from anyone with a transactional attitude to life. That way madness lies.

[Pianiste]

For reference sake, I put "Nice Guys" in quotations and caps to differentiate between nice guys and "Nice Guys." Nice guys are ones who are just genuinely nice, and generally don't have problems with girls. "Nice Guys" are ones who blame their failures on their niceness, who consider themselves victims of attractive women.

 

Does that not make you a "Nice Girl", a victim of society that prefers attractive people?

 

Besides that I think that sympathy, empathy and the idea you are both in the same socially "unwanted" box and have to "help" eachother are terrible reasons to date somebody.

[verhrzn]

Does that not make you a "Nice Girl", a victim of society that prefers attractive people?

 

Besides that I think that sympathy, empathy and the idea you are both in the same socially "unwanted" box and have to "help" eachother are terrible reasons to date somebody.

 

Like I said in my first post, I'm pretty sure I am the girl version of the "Nice Guy."

 

Well, who else should the unwanted date but other unwanted?

[matte123]

Don't date the "Nice Guy." Their attitudes seems shallow and it's very likely for them to leave you for someone better looking. Trying to rescue those guys and prove to them that they are wrong about all girls are not good reasons to start a relationship. Look for an actual nice guy, someone who respects you and enjoys your company. That type of guy will accept you for who you are and what you look like. Also try building up your self esteem again. Change your perception of yourself. I keep reading that you feel ugly and fat. It may be difficult but accept yourself (flaws and all) and tell yourself you are beautiful. If you want to change your body size, then diet and exercise (in a healthy way).

[NeverDated]

Superficially, I feel a lot of sympathy for the guys I read about. I emphasize, because I think I'm kind of the girl version of the "Nice Guy" (the big differences is I don't do try to "jump ladders"; if a guy isn't interested in me, I don't remain his friend.)

 

A lot of times, I almost feel like I should single-handedly take it upon myself to help these guys... that I should find the den of "Nice Guys" in my city and show them that there are girls out there who aren't "shallow," who would happily date short, awkward nerdy guys.

 

But every time I've tried it... dated a "Nice Guy" who the hot girls ignored but I treasured... it ended in me feeling horrible about myself. Because the thing is, the "Nice Guys" don't want me. Why? Because I am the female embodiment of them.

 

I think of my male friends, who complain about how the only women they can get are the "fat and ugly" ones, but are perhaps not male models themselves. And I feel stung and hopeless about the whole hypocritical nature of it all; they the "Nice Guys" feel entitled to hot women dating down, but will not give a fat "Nice Girl" the time of day.

 

I've realized that going for "Nice Guys" has done nothing but repeatedly destroyed my self-esteem. And yet I still feel drawn to help them. I still feel like they are my equal, and that it is somehow my duty, as a woman, to show them my lack of superficiality, even though they reject me without a second thought.

 

So here's my question... is it ever worth it to date a "Nice Guy"? Is it just a mirror-world version of dating a jerk... that same scenario where you hope he changes? (That the "Nice Guy" would recognize my love and change from embittered to self-loving.) If it isn't worth it to date a "Nice Guy," then what is a "Nice Girl" to do? Who, then, should she date, since her supposed social equal won't have her?

Bolded portions..

 

Stop attempting to be a female Moses, delivering the nice, nerdy guys into a land of milk and honey. You are attempting to fix them, so stop that. No one wants to be a project.

 

Underlined portions...

 

It seems like you're trying to go for guys who are like you. And by "seems like" I mean you stated as much. Don't do that. A relationship between two people who have a ton in common is boring, bland and typically doomed to failure. There needs to be some dissonance as well as harmony.

 

So what are you to do? Find a guy who isn't a major project, who has a complimentary personality type and enjoys your company for who you are (rather than how you make him feel). Simple, not easy.

[fishtaco]

But every time I've tried it... dated a "Nice Guy" who the hot girls ignored but I treasured... it ended in me feeling horrible about myself. Because the thing is, the "Nice Guys" don't want me. Why? Because I am the female embodiment of them.

 

Excellent post from a "nice girl" perspective.

 

The above excerpt is gold. How can these nice guys expect to be successful, when they wouldn't even date themselves?

 

Time for change, swim or sink. Period.

 

As for your question, no, it's not worth it to date nice guys. Especially since you're dating them not out of sympathy, I understand that, but because you're settling. You don't think you could do any better, hence you go for the bottom of the barrel, AND you still get rejected on top of that. Hence it's a double blow to your self esteem.

 

So you need to change too. I'm not a woman, I don't know how to get men, so I can't really give you good advice. But the general advice is, look better. Learn to put on make up, and wear clothes, that will hide your weaknesses and bring attention to your strengths. For example, if you have pretty eyes, and happen to be near-sighted, a good pair of glasses can actually bring out your eyes. Then, diet and work out at the gym. No matter what your natural body type is, you can ALWAYS improve. And fit skinny > natural skinny. Fit chubby > natural chubby. As long as you put in the work, it will show, even if you can't reach Hollywood standards, and most people can't.

 

Once you look your best, you're more than half way there. Men pay a lot of attention to physical looks.

 

But if all you have is physical looks, you'll get approached by a lot of hump-n-dump guys. But I'd consider that one step up. Then next step is to work on social intelligence.

 

For men it's actually the opposite, work on social intelligence first, then looks second.

 

Anyway, just my opinion.

[google_girl]

If these men are not attracted towards you then they are not attracted towards you.

We have zero control over towards what we are attracted to you.Dont apply logic.It isnt logical.

These men to whom you call nice guy wanting hot women ,want women who is hot and still has great personality,exciting to be with etc.They are rare catch.Most the hottest women are shallow and dont have much personality doesnt means guys are going to subtract look from their list.

For most of the men beauty is number one criteria when it comes to dating.

[fortyninethousand322]

There's a difference between "nice guy" and "good guy". Try dating a good guy and not a nice guy.

[Joaquin]

First and foremost, only go out with someone you fancy. Someone you wanna get home and....well you know what i mean.

 

To do anything else is wasting everyones time.

[freetolove]

It's not worth it for YOU to date these guys. Girl you need to work on yourself!

[nofool4u]

I already said I love awkward nerdy guys. I am genuinely attracted to kind of shy men.

 

So then whats the problem?

[nofool4u]

What really fascinates me is how the concept of being a "nice guy" or a "good guy" is relegated to looks, not on the old fashioned concept on how a relationship should be conducted and how to respect a woman.

 

I am a nice guy, a good guy. I am by no means, nerdy, ugly in fact I am quite attractive in my opinion. I think when a woman sees a guy who is truly a good guy or a nice guy, they run the other way, so being a nice guy isn't so much about the looks.

 

And this helps the "good guy" weed out the women that will be nothing but trouble for them. So let them run away.

 

I too am a decent looking guy, workout, stay fit. I had someone years ago leave me for a guy that only wanted in my then gf's pants. He was the quintessential bad boy.

 

Well shucky darn, wouldn't you know it. He got what he wanted because he was viewed as exciting to her, and then moved on to his next conquest.

And she had the nerve to try to get back with me. I just told her I'm no longer interested. Told her she doesn't get another chance at what she only thinks is the better deal. So there was one woman I weeded out easily

[verhrzn]

So then whats the problem?

 

The problem is, those same guys are carrying a massive chip on their shoulder... they have years of bitterness about how women ignored them, or how they weren't hot or good enough. So when a woman comes along who does like them, they either sabotage it by pulling out some weird version of who they think the girl wants, OR they ditch the girl when she doesn't magically validate them.

 

For example, I am an average girl, which would seem to be good enough for the average guy. But "nice guys" get upset that they can only attract girls like me, instead of the hot girl who validates their existence and wipes away the years of rejection.

 

So, I like nice guys, but I am getting sick of having to deal with their baggage, and then also getting dumped in the process. (And blamed as "not good enough.")

[Woggle]

The problem is, those same guys are carrying a massive chip on their shoulder... they have years of bitterness about how women ignored them, or how they weren't hot or good enough. So when a woman comes along who does like them, they either sabotage it by pulling out some weird version of who they think the girl wants, OR they ditch the girl when she doesn't magically validate them.

 

For example, I am an average girl, which would seem to be good enough for the average guy. But "nice guys" get upset that they can only attract girls like me, instead of the hot girl who validates their existence and wipes away the years of rejection.

 

So, I like nice guys, but I am getting sick of having to deal with their baggage, and then also getting dumped in the process. (And blamed as "not good enough.")

 

Sadly it seems they are making you pay for all the years that they were dumped for some jerk or treated like crap. They can't believe that a woman actually likes them. When I was at my high school reunion I know a guy who used to be somewhat like this and after he became successful he landed himself a great wife that he treats like crap because he is still bitter about how women treated him.

[verhrzn]

Sadly it seems they are making you pay for all the years that they were dumped for some jerk or treated like crap. They can't believe that a woman actually likes them. When I was at my high school reunion I know a guy who used to be somewhat like this and after he became successful he landed himself a great wife that he treats like crap because he is still bitter about how women treated him.

 

Yeah... and on the very rare occasion I've broken it off with a Nice Guy (guys I dated less than 2 months), watch the claws come out, even if it's for a perfectly valid reason, like, oh, they aren't that into me.

 

That might be a whole new thread but, the more I read about Pick-Up Artists, the more I realize that I have a handful of guys who actually used those tactics on me in the past.... and my reaction, instead of jumping into bed with them, was to logically assume, Oh, you're not into me, I'm moving on. And then suddenly they get all snarky and vindictive.

 

... I think I'm answering my own question here about whether "Nice Guys" are worth it.