veggirl Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 Why would a guy be *offended* by a woman offering to pay her share? I don't get that at all, I'd take it as a lamer who thinks I'm gonna be impressed by his money or something. Ruby you should continue to offer half for the most part. I guess if a guy invited me to a really expensive place on a first date, I could see not offering as he obviously chose it without regard to your budget (general your), but then again...I wouldn't feel comfortable going to an expensive dinner on a first date anyway so that'd be moot with me as I'd decline and suggest something else. If it's a "normal" priced place though, yeah you should continue to offer.
Author Ruby Slippers Posted May 11, 2012 Author Posted May 11, 2012 Why would a guy be *offended* by a woman offering to pay her share? I don't get that at all, I'd take it as a lamer who thinks I'm gonna be impressed by his money or something. OK, maybe that was an exaggeration. The reaction is usually minor, communicating "I've got this/put your wallet away". I'm going to keep offering. And yes, when I offer, I fully intend to follow through. But they always say no, and I'm not going to sit there arguing about it. 1
NateC Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 If I'm the one that offered to go someplace...I usually pay. This goes for meals or movies or whatever the occasion is. That only really applies if I'm alone with someone else and not in a group setting though.
veggirl Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 OK, maybe that was an exaggeration. The reaction is usually minor, communicating "I've got this/put your wallet away". I'm going to keep offering. And yes, when I offer, I fully intend to follow through. But they always say no, and I'm not going to sit there arguing about it. Oh yeah if they are like "I got it" don't say another word other than Thank You Even if they are kinda like thinking wtf over you offering, that's okay it's better than what they'd think if you kept insisting
zengirl Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 OK, maybe that was an exaggeration. The reaction is usually minor, communicating "I've got this/put your wallet away". I'm going to keep offering. And yes, when I offer, I fully intend to follow through. But they always say no, and I'm not going to sit there arguing about it. Right, that sounds fine. I think offering and sincerely meaning it is all that is expected. Arguing about it doesn't sound fun for anyone. And, in that case, I've faced basically the same reactions --- and generally not from moneybags guys at fancy restaurants but normal middle and upper-middle class guys at normal restaurants that are WAY below $50 (total) in most cases, so I'd say it's at least partially a socio-cultural thing.
Pierre Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 OK, maybe that was an exaggeration. The reaction is usually minor, communicating "I've got this/put your wallet away". I'm going to keep offering. And yes, when I offer, I fully intend to follow through. But they always say no, and I'm not going to sit there arguing about it. I always assume I am paying and that includes dates, taking my mom and sister to lunch, or paying for burgers after a round of golf with the guys. I insist on paying because I am highly embarrassed to have some else pay for me. My ex-wife used to be mad at me because she felt I should let other people pay, but I just cannot do it. I feel really awful if someone pays my bill. Whether the date or other people take their wallet out is a moot point because I am not watching for that. One of my golf friends is like me and we had some battles about who pays for beer after a round so with him it is a different story.
FitChick Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 when a woman offers to pay on the first date, they believe she is trying to say, "I never want to see you again." And that is usually the case. If I didn't fancy the guy, I'd be very firm about paying to not get his hopes up and so I wouldn't feel obligated to him in any way. However, this has never come up because I only date men I've talked to on the phone long enough to know I like them enough to meet. Let's not forget there are other ways of reciprocating that are not financial. Not just talking about sex. I enjoy cooking so I will cook for my man. I also get discounts in various places or can get free tickets, so that is another way. If someone is from out of town, I plan things for us to see and do and drive him around. I would never date a man who whipped out a calculator on a date saying "Now, I had half of the bread basket and an extra cup of coffee, you had dessert..." How romantic!
Phennyphen Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 I always at least offer to go half, and its a genuine offer. I don't expect a man to pay my way just for the 'privaledge' of being around me, or whatever the reason is that men should pay. I'm independant, I don't need a man to pay for me, I mean if he wants to then thats fine, it's much appreciated, but I think some women feel entitled to stuff just because theyre a woman, and thats not right. If a man I was dating was offended that I'd offered to pay half then we probably aren't suited anyway, I want to be an equal in my relationship from the beginning, not a princess who demands pampering and spoiling.
NateC Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 I always at least offer to go half, and its a genuine offer. I don't expect a man to pay my way just for the 'privaledge' of being around me, or whatever the reason is that men should pay. I'm independant, I don't need a man to pay for me, I mean if he wants to then thats fine, it's much appreciated, but I think some women feel entitled to stuff just because theyre a woman, and thats not right. If a man I was dating was offended that I'd offered to pay half then we probably aren't suited anyway, I want to be an equal in my relationship from the beginning, not a princess who demands pampering and spoiling. I agree with this. It's part of our culture that the man always pays for the date...but it doesn't *always* have to be the case. Given the chance I would always offer because that's the kind of person I am, but I won't argue if they wanted to pay their half or something.
Disenchantedly Yours Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 DY, the quote you used is offensive, particularly the "pay for your time" part. I'll preface this by saying that I usually pay on dates, and even on outings with male friends, because I am financially well off and it just makes me feel good. However, I hate it when I am _expected_ to pay, which is the sentiment that you, this quote, and other posters in this thread are expressing. Could you please answer one thing honestly. Why is it that you expect your date to "pay for your time"? Is it because you think that, as a woman, your time is more valuable than his? Because that would be offensive and sexist. Or, maybe, you as a human being are more valuable than he is? That is also offensive, at least if you believe that all men and women are created equal. Is there a logical explanation for this sense of entitlement that is fair, and consistent with equality of the sexes? There are things men expect of me when we go out on dates lospantalonsfancie. Sometimes that expectation is met, and we go out on more dates. Other times that expectation is not met, and they do not want to go out on a date with me again. I do not "expect" my date to pay for my time to be honest. I don't view it that way. My time doesn't equal his money. I just like traditional roles sometimes and I like feeling taken care of. I am not saying men don't like to feel taken care of. But that's why I like when a man pays. It's kind. It shows he is willing to share and in general, it's a positive. The qoute is more about how I like what Steve has to say concerning how often the term "gold-digger" gets thrown around to shame women. I very much believe men and women are created equal. What I don't believe in is that everything needs to be matched tit for tat within relationships. It's a give and take. I also don't think that just because men and women are equal, we need to take out all things that make men feel like men and women feel like women. There are many things men enjoy that revert women back to stereotypical gender roles. Such as her making him a home cooked meal. Or doing his laundry, ironing laundry. All things I've done for men I care for! You don't hear me pulling the "we are equals" card to get out of treating him ways that are stereotypically gender identified. His a man's money worth more then me cooking him a meal or doing his laundry? I don't think so. When I go out on dates, I also always offer to pay. Do I do this sincerely? Well, on one hand, I woudn't feel right not offering. But on the other hand, I feel like I am being "taken care of" when a man pays. So when a man doesn't pay, I might see him again depending on how much I like him, but it's certainly something that isn't a positive for him in that moment and time. It makes me think he is being stingy. So what's the solution? I don't know. On one hand, men think that women are demanding too much and being selfish and on the other hand other women think *he* is demanding too much and being selfish. So where does that leave us? Endless hours of wondering who pays with no real answer while men lobe out insults calling women gold-diggers because it's nice when a man pays for you. Mean while, you get threads around here about "seducing" ("using" in my mind's eye) for sex so that they can get theirs. So they are upset that women will use them for money but they have no qualms about using women for sex. But of course, we are all adults here. If a woman gets used for sex, it's her own fault right? If a man gets used for money, it's still a woman's fault.
musemaj11 Posted May 12, 2012 Posted May 12, 2012 I do know that some guys believe that when a woman offers to pay on the first date, they believe she is trying to say, "I never want to see you again." Very true because men know that 99% of women have that expectation to get paid for on a date. So even if they dont want to, they will still pay out of fear of ruining their chances. Muse, I don't get this. You don't want to be used for your money, sure I get that. But then to turn around and use a woman for sex just because *you* think after only 2 dates she is using you, I mean, you are dishing out the behavior you want to avoid. Why not just say "good bye" to her and not use her at all just like you say you don't want to be used?" We all have different principles in life. Mine is that of the golden rule. I do unto others what others do unto me. I will give to those who give and I will take from those who take. Even if I from the beginning had a malicious intention on a woman (approaching her for solely sexual intent) and she turned out to be a good generous person, I would leave her alone because I couldnt bring myself to hurt such a person. I'm going to keep offering. And yes, when I offer, I fully intend to follow through. But you will have negative feeling about it if the man takes your offer, Im sure. Its like a man who says, "I dont mind waiting for sex for more than three dates" but then leave the woman because she really refuses to have sex after the third date. Its insincere. There are things men expect of me when we go out on dates lospantalonsfancie. Sometimes that expectation is met, and we go out on more dates. Other times that expectation is not met, and they do not want to go out on a date with me again. I do not "expect" my date to pay for my time to be honest. I don't view it that way. My time doesn't equal his money. I just like traditional roles sometimes and I like feeling taken care of. I am not saying men don't like to feel taken care of. But that's why I like when a man pays. It's kind. It shows he is willing to share and in general, it's a positive. The qoute is more about how I like what Steve has to say concerning how often the term "gold-digger" gets thrown around to shame women. When women call a man "Not a man", "Not a gentleman", or "Cheap" for not treating them the way they want, do you think its also a shaming tactic? I think this type of logic is just going to lead to an endless argument. The man shames the woman by calling her 'gold digger' for demanding him to spend money on her while the woman shames the man by calling him 'cheap' for refusing to spend money on her.
zengirl Posted May 12, 2012 Posted May 12, 2012 Honestly, in summation: I think it's wrong to say a man 'has' to pay, but I don't think it's wrong to say you 'like' it when he does. It's wrong to say people HAVE to do things. It's not wrong to LIKE anything you choose. Someone who can't find her wallet when the check comes and the man hasn't offered to cover it is being a jerk; someone who offers, sincerely will pay, but happens to feel happy when a man insists, is not doing anything wrong at all. We all have preferences in dating, and we're welcome to them. There are a myriad of preferences and expectations in how we wish to be treated, what we want to happen, etc, on a 1st date. As long as many men choose to express their interest and generosity (it's far from the ONLY way a person can express generosity) by covering dinner or whatnot on an early date, that will put some men above others. Just as long as some women choose to spend ages making themselves look great for a first date, there will be times someone who goes fairly au natural on a date gets put a cut below. Etc, etc, we could list oodles of these for everyone involved, really, and some preferences would apply to some people and others to others. Personally, I never thought of a man paying being my 'preference' but I WOULD have wondered if a man liked me if he didn't insist on paying on a first date, I think, since it literally never happened in America (in places where culture is different, I would consider it in the context of that culture). I also think a man who takes a woman up on her offer to chip in or suggests dutch because he has a philosophical belief that it promotes equality on early dates --- while also having a generous, loving, giving spirit, where he will not be calculative in a R --- would not face any trouble, honestly. Whereas a man who is merely looking out for himself and does not feel compelled to ever share with anyone will not do as well. So, I really don't think a man who is acting with the convictions of his beliefs in some kind of equality is hindered by not paying, but a man who has resentment towards others, wants roles and situations that only suit himself, or just has a true lack of generosity is perhaps hindered. I think similar things are also true for women in many situations. 1
DuchessKaye Posted May 12, 2012 Posted May 12, 2012 On my 1st date with my guy, I let him pay. 2nd, I offered to contribute, he said no, since he was using CC all the time. 3rd date, I insisted on paying, I grabbed the chit right away and put my money down, it was like 210 dollar dinner meal and drinks (wine). And he said no again, he gave my money back and put down his CC, but I insisted still. He said, that was a lot of money and he wasn't approving me to pay. "No, you're not paying. I am not approving this. That is a lot of money" That's exactly what he said. He really didn't want me to pay coz I only ate like 1/4 of the food. And just few shots of wine. But everybody was looking at us since we seemed like we were arguing who's going to pay, I just told him to not make a scene and just let me pay. He then stopped from stopping me. But after that, he never ever let me have a chance to grab the bill. He always take it right off and waiters always place them too far away from me. Like as if he told them and notified them to not place the chits near me... And when I tell him, let's split it, or let me have it, let me take care for it this time, or let me pay for it. He authoritively says NO! All the time... And so, to make it fair, I just sometimes bring bottles of wine or food when I come over to his place...
Pierre Posted May 12, 2012 Posted May 12, 2012 I believe that a woman having to pay for a date is an abomination. This belief has nothing to do with sexism. When my dad was alive I would never let him pay either.
Author Ruby Slippers Posted May 13, 2012 Author Posted May 13, 2012 I offered to pay on a first date last night, or at least pay the tip. We had talked about money quite a bit during the evening, since we're both business owners and he was telling me that he has a plan to retire comfortably within 5 years (at age 45), and is on track to accomplish that. He thanked me, refused the offer, and said, "I tell you what - when I run out of money, then I'll let you pay."
DuchessKaye Posted May 13, 2012 Posted May 13, 2012 I offered to pay on a first date last night, or at least pay the tip. We had talked about money quite a bit during the evening, since we're both business owners and he was telling me that he has a plan to retire comfortably within 5 years (at age 45), and is on track to accomplish that. He thanked me, refused the offer, and said, "I tell you what - when I run out of money, then I'll let you pay." Nice of him...
Author Ruby Slippers Posted May 13, 2012 Author Posted May 13, 2012 (edited) But you will have negative feeling about it if the man takes your offer, Im sure. When women call a man "Not a man", "Not a gentleman", or "Cheap" for not treating them the way they want, do you think its also a shaming tactic? You're right. I'm used to men paying, so of course it stands out as different and not as good if he doesn't pay. I guess the equivalent for men would be if 95% of women do a certain sex act (blow jobs, for example), and then you encounter one of the 5% who won't. It doesn't mean you're going to rule her out if she has other great qualities to counterbalance the lack of sexual adventurousness - but you would certainly prefer to have a wider range of activities in bed. In my life, 95%+ of the men of I've dated have insisted on paying. So yeah, that 5% would look undesirable in comparison to the norm I'm used to. And if 95% of men enjoy performing oral (and, in my experience, they do), yeah, I would disappointed to encounter one of the 5% who don't. In fact, that would almost certainly be a deal-breaker for me (unless he were basically Superman otherwise). I used to have a different attitude about money in a relationship. I would insist on paying half, would not let a boyfriend who offered to pay all of our rent, etc. But I guess I've grown up - now I know that I want a man who is a capable provider. I want a family, and for at least the first few years of the reproductive process (pregnancy and taking care of infants), I don't want to have to worry about earning money on top of that. Once the kids are a little older, no problem - but not at first. Paying for dates is an easy way for him to show that he's able to be that provider. Edited May 13, 2012 by Ruby Slippers
carhill Posted May 13, 2012 Posted May 13, 2012 OP, if you're 'old fashioned' in the Southern tradition, don't muck with it. Leave it alone. Enjoy the dates and the gentleman's generosity and return it in kind. As a worldly and mature woman, you certainly know how to brighten a gentleman's day. Not everything is an accounting or sex. 1
Els Posted May 13, 2012 Posted May 13, 2012 I grew up in a pretty traditional culture where the guy almost always pays, and even then offering nicely was never seen as offensive (though insistence was). I think you'll be fine.
phineas Posted May 13, 2012 Posted May 13, 2012 Personally though I always pay on dates because I know 99% of women expect me to pay and I dont want to ruin my chances of having sex with them. Paying is my way to feel less guilty treating women as mere sex objects because in my mind they too are treating me as money object. So its fair. On the other hand though, when a woman is generous to me and respect me as a human being and not a money object, I too in turn respect her the same way. The fastest, easiest, & enthusiastic sex I've experienced was from women that I hardly spent any money on at all. Go to a free concert, buy her a drink or two ect. Every time I took a woman to dinner for the first few dates it went no where. was a waste of my time & money. So I do the simple cheap date & do some kind of activity we both like doing. If they stick around & become my GF then i'll spend some money on them. But not before. 1
Author Ruby Slippers Posted May 13, 2012 Author Posted May 13, 2012 The fastest, easiest, & enthusiastic sex I've experienced was from women that I hardly spent any money on at all. Go to a free concert, buy her a drink or two ect. Every time I took a woman to dinner for the first few dates it went no where. was a waste of my time & money. So I do the simple cheap date & do some kind of activity we both like doing. If they stick around & become my GF then i'll spend some money on them. But not before. But you're basically looking for sex without commitment, right? It doesn't sound to me as though you're looking for anything beyond fairly casual. So this makes sense. I'm looking for something totally different, as are guys I naturally click with. If I just want a sexy guy for a night, he can bring me a Snickers bar and that's more than enough.
RedRobin Posted May 13, 2012 Posted May 13, 2012 Have you ever gone on a first date that didn't involve a discussion about their income earning potential? Or having to prove themselves financially? I understand that you are looking for a certain kind of relationship. Any way you can get around this without the $$ discussion? Or testing the guy that way? I never discuss money with the well off people I know. It is just accepted that it is there. Like air. It is one of those things... if you have to ask, you don't have it.
Oxy Moronovich Posted May 13, 2012 Posted May 13, 2012 I believe that a woman having to pay for a date is an abomination. This belief has nothing to do with sexism. When my dad was alive I would never let him pay either. You went out on dates with you dad? The fastest, easiest, & enthusiastic sex I've experienced was from women that I hardly spent any money on at all. Go to a free concert, buy her a drink or two ect. Every time I took a woman to dinner for the first few dates it went no where. was a waste of my time & money. So I do the simple cheap date & do some kind of activity we both like doing. If they stick around & become my GF then i'll spend some money on them. But not before. I've been saying this stuff for a long time now: stop taking women out to eat. It's lame and played out. Take her out to do an activity: bowling, museum, rollerblading, etc. That way you can at least get some fun while you go on dates. It brings a chick closer to the guy. Dinner doesn't do jack to endear a chick to her date.
phineas Posted May 13, 2012 Posted May 13, 2012 But you're basically looking for sex without commitment, right? It doesn't sound to me as though you're looking for anything beyond fairly casual. So this makes sense. I'm looking for something totally different, as are guys I naturally click with. If I just want a sexy guy for a night, he can bring me a Snickers bar and that's more than enough. No. I'm looking for a commitment from a woman who doesn't think her pussy belongs on a pedestal. That her love isn't something that should be bought & most importantly, a woman who doesn't think my money is our money & her money is her money. Like I said, women who expected me to take them to dinner & pay on the first few dates always *poofed* on me. women who just wanted to spend time with me without me spending money on them have proven to be into me & not my wallet. Being into me = sex without a bunch of BS in a reasonable amount of time.
Pierre Posted May 13, 2012 Posted May 13, 2012 No. I'm looking for a commitment from a woman who doesn't think her pussy belongs on a pedestal. That her love isn't something that should be bought & most importantly, a woman who doesn't think my money is our money & her money is her money. Like I said, women who expected me to take them to dinner & pay on the first few dates always *poofed* on me. women who just wanted to spend time with me without me spending money on them have proven to be into me & not my wallet. Being into me = sex without a bunch of BS in a reasonable amount of time. Being cheap is listed among the top 10 worst things a man can do on a date.
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