A general comment on how social status seems to play into date&mate choices.

May 9, 2012

Excellent post, I think part of the message is that especially in the U.S., we have a huge degree of control of our perceived social value that isn't just determined by pedigree or socioeconomic status. Correct me if that's not one of your implications.

May 9, 2012

Excellent post, I think part of the message is that especially in the U.S., we have a huge degree of control of our perceived social value that isn't just determined by pedigree or socioeconomic status. Correct me if that's not one of your implications.

Social status also has to do with memes.

WIKI

A meme ( /ˈmiːm/; meem)[1]) is "an idea, behavior or style that spreads from person to person within a culture."[2] A meme acts as a unit for carrying cultural ideas, symbols or practices, which can be transmitted from one mind to another through writing, speech, gestures, rituals or other imitable phenomena. Supporters of the concept regard memes as cultural analogues to genes in that they self-replicate, mutate and respond to selective pressures.[3]

Some family memes are very strong.

May 9, 2012

Excellent post, I think part of the message is that especially in the U.S., we have a huge degree of control of our perceived social value that isn't just determined by pedigree or socioeconomic status. Correct me if that's not one of your implications.

Probably moreso in the US than where I live. London, despite the level of multiculturalism, can sometimes be an elitist place. But I always say nothing is set in stone. And I believe that we DO have a large amount of control over many aspects of our lives that include social value. I think it gets lost on many people who allow external circumstances to dictate their lives.

May 9, 2012

Social status also has to do with memes.

WIKI

Some family memes are very strong.

There is a degree of truth to this, but like I say, I live in a very mutlicultural city, and it's very difficult to pass on these things in the same way as it was before, unless one belongs to a strong traditional family or cultural environment, or even a religious one.

May 9, 2012

Probably moreso in the US than where I live. London, despite the level of multiculturalism, can sometimes be an elitist place. But I always say nothing is set in stone. And I believe that we DO have a large amount of control over many aspects of our lives that include social value. I think it gets lost on many people who allow external circumstances to dictate their lives.

Have heard same about the UK, much more class-conscious. In the U.S. we have a burgeoning group of very rich a-holes all over the television and elsewhere, and no real traditionally defined "St John Smythe" type aristocracy going back 800 years, so money and class have become separated and don't necessarily follow one from the other.

May 9, 2012

Have heard same about the UK, much more class-conscious. In the U.S. we have a burgeoning group of very rich a-holes all over the television and elsewhere, and no real traditionally defined "St John Smythe" type aristocracy going back 800 years, so money and class have become separated and don't necessarily follow one from the other.

Well, they call America the land of opportunity ...London....meh not so much. Also, I've noted that society in America tends to reward and congratulate people who are winners or who at least strive to win, while in London they have a tendency to trash them, in favor of the supposed underdog, while at the same time upholding a status quo that ensures that underdog stays that way. Complex...

There are a mish mash of cultures in London's society nowadays. I am from a very youthful crowd of 25 and younger, we're all into different stuff. I have been in social circles that range from rockers, to ghetto kids, to indie kids, trendies, elders, local celebrities etc, I could go on. There are all differences, and I think what has served me well is the fact that I have a genuine interest in all of them as individuals regardless of culture. Perhaps the only people I have yet to really encounter are homosexuals (apart from a few lesbians). I wouldn't mind meeting one, I am neutral on that particular issue, but I come from an environment that is very homophobic so it would be difficult to socialize with them without backlash.

As for being rich.....I have no problem with people with money. I find that money doesn't make a person automatically bad, just that people are individuals. And individuals without money can be just as bad as people with copious amounts of money. I have a feeling that I will end up being financially fortunate at some point in my life and I believe I would put it to good use for everyone as well as myself. Social circle will be key to that, so I think it's for a reason that I am able to socialize with many different people, despite the fact that I have a condition that would normally hinder me socially.

Edited May 9, 2012 by ThaWholigan

May 9, 2012

I think there's a lot of truth to this. It wasn't till I started dressing like a successful business owner that I began to get dates with doctors, lawyers, and entrepreneurs - and this happened immediately after the wardrobe upgrade. My long-term partners in the past were all professional (engineer, accountant, sales manager), but now I'm starting to meet guys with more money and status.

The problem is that all these "high status" guys I've met lately are quite boring. The trend is that they don't seem to appreciate anything, are entitled, and have no sense of wonder about life whatsoever.

I find that the low- to mid-earning guys are way more fun, appreciative, imaginative, and supportive. But then the problem is that I make more money and have the ambition to go much further than most of them do, and that presents problems. They generally either feel inferior, or I get the feeling they are hoping I'll take care of them, which is never gonna happen.

So I'm torn between going for the good on paper guys who can provide for a family but are largely uninspiring, and the not so good on paper guys who are fun, sexy, and seem to be thankful for what they have. Hopefully there's a happy medium in there somewhere.

May 9, 2012

Hopefully there's a happy medium in there somewhere.

There is a happy medium, there are lots of guys out there in status jobs who will float your boat, you just have to keep sailing.

May 9, 2012

I think seeing status as simply 'high' or 'low' is off, because what seems like a good status to one might not to another. I think that's the basic point that someone like Woggle makes in this thread, though he didn't say that. He sees being rich as a 'low' status, from his POV, which is equally valid to anyone else's and will dictate how social capital impacts him. I also think wealth is a teeny tiny part of social capital.

But of course our social and cultural capital plays into who we date. As does our economic capital, frankly, in many cases, even when you don't consciously care about money -- most people date someone in the same basic socio-economic class, even if there is a gap in actual wealth or wages.

Social and cultural capital dictates much of life really. Success in work, success in dating, success with money, etc, etc. Some of it you just get, some of it you cultivate. From a roleplaying game perspective: Some experiences bring with them bonus capital, like EXP points, and some seem to hit you with the equivalent of a status ailment.

I think social capital is extremely complex --- it's a mix of your background, your experiences, your place in society, the place you want to have in society, etc. I also think anyone can choose to better develop or better use their social capital.

May 9, 2012

I see allot of people got where I'm coming from on this (notably people who have experienced some success in dating).

@Woggle

I agree with what threebyfate says with respect to your counter example. I would only add that I'm not saying people go around thinking constantly about their social status trying to climb higher etc. Most people are like you. They don't think about it...it just sort of works out that way.

The people who have the greatest trouble in dating, (and probably allot of other social things) need to think about it.

Having a healthy social network, for example, found a nephew of mine a good job. He had looked online for years and then he met someone who knew someone and he was in. He did not befriend the guy looking for a job either. He works security and the person in question is a pathologist....who just happened to get wind of his job search and make the connection.

People focus so much on the goal of getting a SO like that will validate them socially. Nah. They need to focus on the overall health of their social network.

May 9, 2012

The problem is that all these "high status" guys I've met lately are quite boring. The trend is that they don't seem to appreciate anything, are entitled, and have no sense of wonder about life whatsoever.

Why don't you bring that sense of wonder back into their lives? I've dated men like this and they are usually burnt out from work stress and planning the future of dozens or hundreds of employees. The last thing they want to do is plan anything! I think that's why men like these have stay at home wives, who plan their social lives and look after their personal needs.

What I've done is suggest things they've never done, that are a bit out of the ordinary but fun. I took one guy to Pollock's Toy Museum in London. He'd never heard of it though he'd lived in London all of his adult life. He turned into a little boy before my eyes: "I got one of these for Christmas when I was five! It was my favorite!" "I always wanted _____ but my parents couldn't afford it," etc. I learned a lot about him and had fun myself seeing all the wonderful, odd, antique toys.

Someone who spends all day behind a desk might enjoy hiking in a beautiful bit of nature or just walking through a botanical garden breathing in all the oxygen pumped out by the plants. Very relaxing.

Go to a go-kart track and zoom around.

Most major cities in the US have Watson Adventures.

Just having drinks and dinner all the time is boring.

Edited May 9, 2012 by FitChick

May 9, 2012

Have heard same about the UK, much more class-conscious. In the U.S. we have a burgeoning group of very rich a-holes all over the television and elsewhere, and no real traditionally defined "St John Smythe" type aristocracy going back 800 years, so money and class have become separated and don't necessarily follow one from the other.

when we were kids my brother and i were not allowed to play with kids outside of a certain class. mom would pretty much dismiss anyone who didn't fit a certain bill. when section 8 started their voucher program in the 80s it didn't take long for a rent house to show up with section 8 tenants in the neighborhood. we couldn't play with those kids. there was a preacher around the corner with kids our age as well, and the daughter made a habit of mooching (asking for food/money) and they were off the list too. when it got to high school, certain friends could come over and certain ones couldn't.

but in the 70s/80s and before there was an established middle class. from the mid 90s on it started to disappear, because middle class income has shrunk down to comparable to lower class income. there isn't an established middle class as much as there was then.

and look at the result of that...now we have an upper ~5% and everyone else, basically. the upper 5% still plays by the old rules, no one really gets into that social circle. everyone else mixes a lot more frequently than they used to. you see a lot more of "middle class background girl gets knocked up by bartender or ex con" or "middle class guy brings home girl from family full of meth addicts covered in tattoos" type situations.

these sorts of things just weren't acceptable 20-30 years ago, but since there isn't much of a middle class left, lower class by sheer numbers are dragging what's left of the middle class into it.

May 9, 2012

these sorts of things just weren't acceptable 20-30 years ago, but since there isn't much of a middle class left, lower class by sheer numbers are dragging what's left of the middle class into it.

My mother's parents didn't want her dating my dad because he was from the "other side of the tracks." My father's dad made more than my mother's parents, who both worked, combined. He had to drive an hour to a factory to do it, but he did. None of my grandparents was more than two generations removed from the family farm, so my maternal grandparents' (who were lovely people just a product of their time) silly attitude was completely unwarranted, as so many U.S. supposed class distinctions are/were.

I don't think that's necessarily the same kind of social value Mrlonelyone is talking about in his exhortation to put upon posters here to get out and make a social network for themselves though, which is excellent advice I agree with.

Don't want to turn this into a political debate, but the middle class in the U.S. is just fine, dandy and growing IMO. If someone has central air, a roof over their head, food to eat, 300 channels on cable, then in my book they are middle class no matter what the poverty tables and certain political interests keep pounding into our heads. Our lower middle class here is upper middle in other areas of the world, in the most heterogenous, perpetually immigrated to place on earth, subject to continuous waves of immigration from elsewhere for the country's duration. In light of constant immigration, it's amazing how fast and easily newcomers assimilate into the American middle class lifestyle. It's amazing to me, in light of massive continuing immigration to this country, that income is not even more concentrated than it is.

Yes, I agree, New Orleans is different (IIRC where your experience originates), but N.O. is rather singular in experience among American cities and subcultures also, a land unto itself in certain respects.

May 9, 2012

and look at the result of that...now we have an upper ~5% and everyone else, basically. the upper 5% still plays by the old rules, no one really gets into that social circle. everyone else mixes a lot more frequently than they used to. you see a lot more of "middle class background girl gets knocked up by bartender or ex con" or "middle class guy brings home girl from family full of meth addicts covered in tattoos" type situations.

these sorts of things just weren't acceptable 20-30 years ago, but since there isn't much of a middle class left, lower class by sheer numbers are dragging what's left of the middle class into it.

I have to agree. the so-called middle class has become more urban and ghetto. Tattoos are a terrific example of that trend.

Talking about tattoos and class. There are many folks that find tattoos as low class despite level of income. For some men and women tattoos are deal breakers when dating.

May 9, 2012

Fascinating how classism always enters discussions like these.

May 9, 2012

Fascinating how classism always enters discussions like these.

What is "classism"? And why would it be surprising that that a discussion about social status would include discussion of classes?

May 9, 2012

What is "classism"? And why would it be surprising that that a discussion about social status would include discussion of classes?

It's interesting how people pull out the "my class is better than other classes because we slogged through the snow without boots" or "other classes are boring", etc. arguments.

May 9, 2012

Why don't you bring that sense of wonder back into their lives?

Oh, this is what I do. But eventually, the sparkles wear off and they are back to being their bored, unappreciative selves. And that's usually when they start looking for another "fix" - usually one that is not the original sparkler.

I'm very good at inspiring and waking people up. People are always telling me I inspire them, and I see the effects of this on my friends all the time.

But I've figured out I need a guy who already has that inspiration within - at least a good dose of it. I need to be fired up and inspired, too. Some of the up-and-comer guys have an ample supply. But the more established guys often just seem so complacent, listless. It's a real shame.

But I do think it's just a matter of continuing to meet new people, finding the signal in the noise.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Ruby Slippers

May 9, 2012

Oh, this is what I do. But eventually, the sparkles wear off and they are back to being their bored, unappreciative selves. And that's usually when they start looking for another "fix" - usually one that is not the original sparkler.

I'm very good at inspiring and waking people up. People are always telling me I inspire them, and I see the effects of this on my friends all the time.

But I've figured out I need a guy who already has that inspiration within - at least a good dose of it. I need to be fired up and inspired, too. Some of the up-and-comer guys have an ample supply. But the more established guys often just seem so complacent, listless. It's a real shame.

But I do think it's just a matter of continuing to meet new people, finding the signal in the noise.

You're overly categorizing based on a very small sample size. Also, until you get to know people, particularly business people, they're not going to open up to you. This is the way of the shark factory where you learn to hold your cards tight to the chest.

From the sounds of it, you need men who are more emotionally obvious, more impulsive, who don't utilize a logic first coping strategy. Where you're correct is that within the world of business, men who make it aren't effusive in their emotional displays. Same goes for women.

Edited May 9, 2012 by threebyfate

May 9, 2012

You're overly categorizing based on a very small sample size. Also, until you get to know people, particularly business people, they're not going to open up to you. This is the way of the shark factory where you learn to hold your cards tight to the chest.

From the sounds of it, you need men who are more emotionally obvious, more impulsive, who don't utilize a logic first coping strategy. Where you're correct is that within the world of business, men who make it aren't effusive in their emotional displays. Same goes for women.

I'm not talking about men I meet in a business situation - I'm talking about dates. I have balls of steel in any business meeting or negotiation, but on a date and in my relaxed time, I'm a totally different and much more playful animal.

You don't have to be emotionally obvious to have a sense of wonder and express it. I'm not impulsive and do not like men who are - I do like people who know how to lighten up and have fun. And I'm actually very logical and think through almost all decisions slowly and carefully before taking swift, strong action - I like men like this, too.

You're right about the sample size. And that's why I'm going to keep meeting new people.

May 9, 2012

I don't see being rich as low status. I just think that many yuppies have nothing to offer but that. They have no culture and no layers and nothing besides throwing money around. I don't have anything against wealthy people but yuppie culture is a big turn off.

May 10, 2012

I have to agree. the so-called middle class has become more urban and ghetto. Tattoos are a terrific example of that trend.

Talking about tattoos and class. There are many folks that find tattoos as low class despite level of income. For some men and women tattoos are deal breakers when dating.

Sure. And there are many people who find tattoos interesting and appealing, regardless of class. This is a great example of how social experiences and social capital are intertwined. Many of the most intelligent, successful, and interesting people I know (generally in tech fields) have tattoos. That's always been my experience, so I've never had a negative feeling about them. I know many people with a fair amount of money and status who have tattoos. Seems to be generational, of course.

It's interesting how people pull out the "my class is better than other classes because we slogged through the snow without boots" or "other classes are boring", etc. arguments.

I didn't see much of the claims to be "better" (maybe Woggle) --- people were just sharing their experiences, particularly with people who have significantly different socio-economic status and experience than they do. Though you did seem to disparage hipster culture, so glass houses, I'd say. I'm probably a hipster of a certain kind, but such comments don't bother me because I understand that no culture is for everyone. Plenty of us have cultures and class cultures we like or dislike, and I think we are all a product of those experiences, which is what the OP was about.

I don't see being rich as low status. I just think that many yuppies have nothing to offer but that. They have no culture and no layers and nothing besides throwing money around. I don't have anything against wealthy people but yuppie culture is a big turn off.

Sorry, if I misread your point. So, to you, yuppie culture is low status, whereas to someone else, it may be high status. That's because status is relative to your own views.

May 10, 2012

Let's not fool ourselves. In this world, status = money. Elevate your money, and you elevate your status. Elevate your status, and your money grows.

And the sad truth is that money = survival. And that's why your original statement is so true:

People want to gain or at least not loose status by way of their chosen mate.

I think it's time for me to join a boot strapper entrepreneur's group of some kind.

May 10, 2012

Let's not fool ourselves. In this world, status = money. Elevate your money, and you elevate your status. Elevate your status, and your money grows.

And the sad truth is that money = survival. And that's why your original statement is so true:

I think it's time for me to join a boot strapper entrepreneur's group of some kind.

This is true but if you have no financial why do you need status? Why should I care about impressing people I don't even like?

May 10, 2012

you think they are buying Range Rover to impress people.

you think they are buying a mansion to impress people.

you think they are wearing a rolex to impress people.

you think they are carrying LV purse as grocery bag to impress people.

your $1 is like a nickel for them. it's just simple like that.

This is true but if you have no financial why do you need status? Why should I care about impressing people I don't even like?

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A general comment on how social status seems to play into date&mate choices.

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