muzik_lvr Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 I am not currently married, nor have I ever gone through a divorce, but I came across this article today and thought it would be good to share on this forum. I hope some of you can find it encouraging and possibly helpful to your current situation. Don't Even Think About Divorcing Until | Odyssey of Marriage - Yahoo! Shine 1
marqueemoon4 Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 yea thats great for the person who might want to save the marriage.. doesn't do much good if your spouse is dead set on divorce. 2
jphcbpa Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 this is right where I am.... "..can vividly imagine your partner kissing somebody else, and you don't care. We've evolved three distinct brain systems for mating and reproduction. One is the sex drive. The second is romantic love. The third is deep feelings of attachment. Before you divorce, you need to be at the point where you feel no sexual interest in your partner, no feelings of romantic love at any time, and no deep attachment. You really don't? Then you're free." 2
KathyM Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 That was a good article. Thank you for posting it. I think there are a lot of couples who think the grass will somehow be greener once they get a divorce, and they don't really consider all of these things enough. That their next partner will have issues as well. That their next marriage is not going to be smooth sailing either. That the same day-to-day crap that is wearing on their current marriage will crop up in their next as well. Probably worse, since then they will likely be dealing with blended families, divided loyalties, and money spread much thinner because it is divided up. I would certainly agree that people are too quick to divorce and don't make enough effort to save their marriage. 3
jphcbpa Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 agree that people are too quick to divorce and don't make enough effort to save their marriage. agree that is is healthy to take your time (not react), research your options, think about the future, take care of yourself, see a therapist, go to MC ect and most important dont leave for someone else (the grass is NOT greener). you have to do it for you regardless of a future relationship, the main deciding factor (after everything is weighed carefully) in the end is your internal happiness and knowing someone/something is not going to make you happy/fill that void.
pteromom Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 this is right where I am.... "..can vividly imagine your partner kissing somebody else, and you don't care. We've evolved three distinct brain systems for mating and reproduction. One is the sex drive. The second is romantic love. The third is deep feelings of attachment. Before you divorce, you need to be at the point where you feel no sexual interest in your partner, no feelings of romantic love at any time, and no deep attachment. You really don't? Then you're free." I am there too. I feel nothing for him, other than wishing him well. I've also done all the work - - I've facilitated marriage counseling (which was a disaster) - I've journaled EXTENSIVELY about all the issues and my feelings around them - I saw an individual therapist for 6 months - I have read countless books trying to fix the issues in our marriage - I have negotiated and renegotiated and REnegotiated trying to make us both happy. - I've tried all types of response - logical communication, yelling (which is very unnatural for me), crying, detachment, forcing myself to act loving and romantic when I am not feeling it, etc. - I've talked to friends/family for feedback But here's the bottom line: I am HAPPY when I am alone, away from him. When I am near him, his negative energy, anger, and flip-flopping moods (Yelling "How the F*** would I know?!" at me when I ask a simple question, then wanting sex an hour later) just drain the life out of me. It's not about the grass being greener elsewhere. I don't know if I'd ever even find someone else to be in a relationship with, or if I'd want to! It's about being free to be the me that I want to be. I've tried just completely detaching and not taking on any of his negativity. Not letting it in when he calls me "idiot" or "weird" or "stupid"... but all that does is turn me to stone, and I do not want to be stone. It's impossible to communicate about it, because he doesn't remember saying these things moments after he says them (or says he doesn't) and instead turns it against me. He's angry, sad, incredibly insecure, and very defensive. He's rude and crude and mean. And YES, he was insecure and defensive from the beginning. But I always thought it would go away once our marriage grew and he felt trust and love for me. Instead, it's worse. One moment, he loves me and talks about what a wonderful mom/wife/person I am. The next, he says horrible things about me and treats me as if there is something wrong with me. I never know what the reaction to anything will be. I have to carefully plan out how and when to bring things up in our marriage, to lessen the possibility of a bad reaction. I can't take it anymore. I just want to be able to breathe. Financial costs are of little concern to me - I'll do what I need to do. I will make sure I make it as easy as possible for our son. But I need to go. I am now making a plan to go, rather than making a plan to fix things. Because fixing this is beyond my capabilities.
jphcbpa Posted May 10, 2012 Posted May 10, 2012 Pteromom, I too have been doing the things you have (just a few months behind you), trying to "fix" something that can't be fixed. I pray I am wrong. At least we are doing the footwork and we can look back knowing we gave it our best shot. Worst case we come out healthy and healing. 2
fucpcg Posted May 10, 2012 Posted May 10, 2012 I do NOT believe in divorce whatsoever. Having said that, divorce was the best thing ever for my parents, two people who should have never got together, or probably with anyone for that matter. Marriage is forever, but some people just shouldn't have got married. 3
Author muzik_lvr Posted May 10, 2012 Author Posted May 10, 2012 I do NOT believe in divorce whatsoever. Having said that, divorce was the best thing ever for my parents, two people who should have never got together, or probably with anyone for that matter. Marriage is forever, but some people just shouldn't have got married. Would you mind elaborating a little bit on that? When you say some people should not have gotten married, are you speaking in terms of their compatibility & chemistry with one another? Or, each person's own maturity and readiness to be married? This is something I have been thinking about lately myself and would like to hear your thought on it.
KathyM Posted May 10, 2012 Posted May 10, 2012 (edited) I am there too. I feel nothing for him, other than wishing him well. I've also done all the work - - I've facilitated marriage counseling (which was a disaster) - I've journaled EXTENSIVELY about all the issues and my feelings around them - I saw an individual therapist for 6 months - I have read countless books trying to fix the issues in our marriage - I have negotiated and renegotiated and REnegotiated trying to make us both happy. - I've tried all types of response - logical communication, yelling (which is very unnatural for me), crying, detachment, forcing myself to act loving and romantic when I am not feeling it, etc. - I've talked to friends/family for feedback But here's the bottom line: I am HAPPY when I am alone, away from him. When I am near him, his negative energy, anger, and flip-flopping moods (Yelling "How the F*** would I know?!" at me when I ask a simple question, then wanting sex an hour later) just drain the life out of me. It's not about the grass being greener elsewhere. I don't know if I'd ever even find someone else to be in a relationship with, or if I'd want to! It's about being free to be the me that I want to be. I've tried just completely detaching and not taking on any of his negativity. Not letting it in when he calls me "idiot" or "weird" or "stupid"... but all that does is turn me to stone, and I do not want to be stone. It's impossible to communicate about it, because he doesn't remember saying these things moments after he says them (or says he doesn't) and instead turns it against me. He's angry, sad, incredibly insecure, and very defensive. He's rude and crude and mean. And YES, he was insecure and defensive from the beginning. But I always thought it would go away once our marriage grew and he felt trust and love for me. Instead, it's worse. One moment, he loves me and talks about what a wonderful mom/wife/person I am. The next, he says horrible things about me and treats me as if there is something wrong with me. I never know what the reaction to anything will be. I have to carefully plan out how and when to bring things up in our marriage, to lessen the possibility of a bad reaction. I can't take it anymore. I just want to be able to breathe. Financial costs are of little concern to me - I'll do what I need to do. I will make sure I make it as easy as possible for our son. But I need to go. I am now making a plan to go, rather than making a plan to fix things. Because fixing this is beyond my capabilities. It sounds like your husband is suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder. If he is going from extremes of thinking you are a wonderful wife and mother one minute, and then thinking you are the worst person ever the next, that is a strong characteristic of people with Borderline Personality Disorder. You should encourage him to get IC, and even go with him the first time around, and let the counselor know that you suspect this is what he might be dealing with. Extremes of emotion is also a characteristic of BPD. Whether or not you leave him ultimately, he does need help, and there's a good chance MC did not uncover this personality disorder, since MC is geared towards couple interactions, and some counselors don't recognize BPD when they see it. Here are the symptoms: If he has five or more of the following, he can be diagnosed with BPD: 1. Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger. 2. Mood instability due to a marked reactivity of mood. 3. Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior. 4. Unstable self-image or sense of self. 5. Unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. 6. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. 7. Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms. 8. Chronic feelings of emptiness. 9. Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (such as spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). If he does have several of these symptoms, you should get him into IC. It won't get better on its own, and he does need you to help him find the help that he needs. Whether or not you decide to leave him, you should see that he gets help. Edited May 10, 2012 by KathyM spelling error
pteromom Posted May 10, 2012 Posted May 10, 2012 It sounds like your husband is suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder. Funny you bring that up, Kathy, because I have suspected it for a year or so. I've read several BPD books, and am pretty sure he is high-functioning BPD. 1. Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger. DEFINITELY. Sometimes, he will be go-with-the-flow, and then he'll get mad and start cursing because there is a dryer sheet on the floor. Totally unpredictable. 2. Mood instability due to a marked reactivity of mood. DEFINITELY. He was showing signs this morning of going back into a depressive state, so I will not be surprised if we have one of our usual arguments tonight. 3. Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior. He's only mentioned suicide once, but gets mad if I bring it up (saying I'm making a big deal out of it and it didn't mean anything). He does pick at his skin a lot, but not sure if that qualifies as "self-mutilating" 4. Unstable self-image or sense of self. Very much so. I don't even think he HAS a sense of self. He makes comments all the time that I hate him, that he's a piece of sh*t, that he's a dumba$$ 5. Unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. Definitely. We'll have great sex, and I am the best person ever. Two nights later, I won't be in the mood, and I've "taken everything away from him" or "hate him". 6. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. I don't think he's had the opportunity, as I constantly reassure him in this area. But it's frustrating to have to be constantly reassuring someone 11 years later. 7. Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms. Yes. Forgets things he's said or done, sometimes moments after it happened. Has had a few weird episodes, like one where he was afraid my 20 pound terrier was coming in our room to "do something" to him. (My dog was calm and happy). I've also had to talk him down from freak-outs when something would happen at his job. 8. Chronic feelings of emptiness. Yes, he has said that he has "nothing" regularly. Very frustrating when he has ME and our son, and a family that loves him, and a VERY nice home, and enough money to not have to worry, and his health. 9. Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (such as spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). Spending, yes. Sex, yes (not cheating, but definitely has some issues around sex), driving, yes. Binge eating, I'm not sure. He's overweight and doesn't eat that much, so I wonder if he eats more when I am not there. ??? If he does have several of these symptoms, you should get him into IC. It won't get better on its own, and he does need you to help him find the help that he needs. Whether or not you decide to leave him, you should see that he gets help. So - how do you MAKE someone go to therapy? He had an appointment and it got canceled. He was supposed to make another one and didn't. I asked him recently to please make one, and he hasn't. I guess I could make one for him, but I'd be risking a blow-up. The other thing is that I am scared. My husband's moods are so unpredictable, and he is so good at twisting things around to make it about me, that it causes ME to doubt myself. What if all this is in my head? What if there's something wrong with ME? But then I think about every other relationship I've had (romantic or platonic) and this has never happened before. So it can't be me. I've read all about narcissism and BPD and bipolar and even co-dependency and none of them really apply to me.
fucpcg Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 Would you mind elaborating a little bit on that? When you say some people should not have gotten married, are you speaking in terms of their compatibility & chemistry with one another? Or, each person's own maturity and readiness to be married? This is something I have been thinking about lately myself and would like to hear your thought on it. Well first, my mother was emotionally, verbally, physically abusive alcoholic woman, beyond horrible to her 7 children. Second, our father wasn't overly concerned about it, after all he was busy staying at work late, porking his secretary. It was a big mess. I'm the youngest, and there was a period I didn't talk to my mother for over 11 years. My father, had I heard some of the stories my sisters told me after he passed from cancer, prior to his dying of cancer, he may have just died at my hands. I'm glad to answer specific questions you may have about marriage, etc, but I don't think your case is going to be anything like my parents.
viktorious11 Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 Pteromom.... I wish my wife had tried all that with me. I would do many of the same things your hubby would do to you- look down on her, criticize her if she didn't get my clever joke, make her feel needy and low if she didn't let me go out at night- and we are now divorcing. I wish we wouldve tried marriage counseling and other things- but the only thin that got me off of my high horse is when she ran off with another man. I never thought it could happen to me- bit it did, and although I am devastated by it- I am humbled and realize my part in her doing that. but it's too late.
pteromom Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 Pteromom.... I wish my wife had tried all that with me. I would do many of the same things your hubby would do to you- look down on her, criticize her if she didn't get my clever joke, make her feel needy and low if she didn't let me go out at night- and we are now divorcing. You can't change the past, but you can learn from your mistakes for the future. You'll be in another relationship at some point, and you will know that showing respect for her is important.
KathyM Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 Funny you bring that up, Kathy, because I have suspected it for a year or so. I've read several BPD books, and am pretty sure he is high-functioning BPD. 1. Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger. DEFINITELY. Sometimes, he will be go-with-the-flow, and then he'll get mad and start cursing because there is a dryer sheet on the floor. Totally unpredictable. 2. Mood instability due to a marked reactivity of mood. DEFINITELY. He was showing signs this morning of going back into a depressive state, so I will not be surprised if we have one of our usual arguments tonight. 3. Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior. He's only mentioned suicide once, but gets mad if I bring it up (saying I'm making a big deal out of it and it didn't mean anything). He does pick at his skin a lot, but not sure if that qualifies as "self-mutilating" 4. Unstable self-image or sense of self. Very much so. I don't even think he HAS a sense of self. He makes comments all the time that I hate him, that he's a piece of sh*t, that he's a dumba$$ 5. Unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. Definitely. We'll have great sex, and I am the best person ever. Two nights later, I won't be in the mood, and I've "taken everything away from him" or "hate him". 6. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. I don't think he's had the opportunity, as I constantly reassure him in this area. But it's frustrating to have to be constantly reassuring someone 11 years later. 7. Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms. Yes. Forgets things he's said or done, sometimes moments after it happened. Has had a few weird episodes, like one where he was afraid my 20 pound terrier was coming in our room to "do something" to him. (My dog was calm and happy). I've also had to talk him down from freak-outs when something would happen at his job. 8. Chronic feelings of emptiness. Yes, he has said that he has "nothing" regularly. Very frustrating when he has ME and our son, and a family that loves him, and a VERY nice home, and enough money to not have to worry, and his health. 9. Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (such as spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). Spending, yes. Sex, yes (not cheating, but definitely has some issues around sex), driving, yes. Binge eating, I'm not sure. He's overweight and doesn't eat that much, so I wonder if he eats more when I am not there. ??? If he does have several of these symptoms, you should get him into IC. It won't get better on its own, and he does need you to help him find the help that he needs. Whether or not you decide to leave him, you should see that he gets help. So - how do you MAKE someone go to therapy? He had an appointment and it got canceled. He was supposed to make another one and didn't. I asked him recently to please make one, and he hasn't. I guess I could make one for him, but I'd be risking a blow-up. The other thing is that I am scared. My husband's moods are so unpredictable, and he is so good at twisting things around to make it about me, that it causes ME to doubt myself. What if all this is in my head? What if there's something wrong with ME? But then I think about every other relationship I've had (romantic or platonic) and this has never happened before. So it can't be me. I've read all about narcissism and BPD and bipolar and even co-dependency and none of them really apply to me. Sounds like your husband has just about all of these symptoms of Borderline. All it takes to be diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder is five of the symptoms. Insist he make an appointment for IC, and offer to make the appointment for him. If he refuses, tell him you can't live like this--he needs help to deal with the issues he is experiencing, and you want him to get that help so he can feel better. Don't take no for an answer. This is not your fault in any way. This is a personality disorder that probably stems from abuse or neglect that he experienced during childhood. Please see that he gets help.
coopster Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 (edited) You can't change the past, but you can learn from your mistakes for the future. You'll be in another relationship at some point, and you will know that showing respect for her is important. and that swings both ways i guess? It takes 2?? Edited May 11, 2012 by coopster
pteromom Posted May 11, 2012 Posted May 11, 2012 and that swings both ways i guess? It takes 2?? Absolutely!!!! I will NEVER ignore my instincts and move forward against my better judgment in order to keep someone else from feeling insecure again. Not that I only made ONE mistake in our marriage, but that was the biggie. I don't regret it, because I have a beautiful son, but yeh.... learned some lessons, for sure!
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