Am I shallow?

[xxoo]

So you are saying that it's shallow to turn down somebody because you are not attracted to them?

 

No, it is shallow to not even give them a chance, and see if attraction develops.

[ThaWholigan]

No, it is shallow to not even give them a chance, and see if attraction develops.

I agree but only to an extent. It would probably matter how far outside of those preferences they would be. Somedude has mentioned extensively how much he isn't attracted to overweight women (or obese to be exact). While I don't think he should be too strict in what he likes, at the same time I wouldn't encourage him to date a girl he absolutely isn't attracted to. If there is a modicum there, then go ahead, but anything less then it's probably futile and not fair on either of them.

[veggirl]

Wanting a female with those attributes does not make a person shallow. Dismissing real women as you meet them who fall outside of those attributes and telling them that this is the reason would pretty-much define a shallow guy.

 

Well, if they ask, I don't see the problem in saying "I'm just not attracted to you". and TBH, SDs "standards" are totally typical, the average woman SHOULD fit into them.

 

No, it is shallow to not even give them a chance, and see if attraction develops.

 

Oh come on. I'd love to see where anyone else was ever advised to give someone a chance that they absolutely are not attracted to.

 

I don't give a chance to guys I'm not attracted to and never have. Most people don't go date people they aren't attracted to, just on the off chance that changes.

[xxoo]

I agree but only to an extent. It would probably matter how far outside of those preferences they would be. Somedude has mentioned extensively how much he isn't attracted to overweight women (or obese to be exact). While I don't think he should be too strict in what he likes, at the same time I wouldn't encourage him to date a girl he absolutely isn't attracted to. If there is a modicum there, then go ahead, but anything less then it's probably futile and not fair on either of them.

 

I agree, and it wouldn't take long to know.

 

But deciding ahead of time what physical traits you can and can not feel attraction to is unnecessary. And shallow.

 

I think sd admitted earlier that he has felt attraction to women outside these specs....so I don't understand why he even mentions them?

[fallenenvy]

I mainly don't understand why you feel its ok to have your preferences and turn down women based on them not meeting them.... (which i feel is 100% ok mind you) BUT (for example) you go hating on short women that like tall men. That bugs the hell outa me... im 4 11 and my bf is 6 1...

 

My point being it's ok for you to like what you like and date accordingly but why do you feel you can dictate it is wrong for other ppl to like what they like and date accordingly? hypocritical.

[ThaWholigan]

I mainly don't understand why you feel its ok to have your preferences and turn down women based on them not meeting them.... (which i feel is 100% ok mind you) BUT (for example) you go hating on short women that like tall men. That bugs the hell outa me... im 4 11 and my bf is 6 1...

 

My point being it's ok for you to like what you like and date accordingly but why do you feel you can dictate it is wrong for other ppl to like what they like and date accordingly? hypocritical.

This is about the only thing that Somedude is actually being challenged on in this thread in my opinion. I do think it is hypocritical to be upset about that, no matter how unreasonable it may seem. People do like what they like, including Somedude. And including a 4 foot 11 girl with a 6 footer for a boyfriend .

[fallenenvy]

This is about the only thing that Somedude is actually being challenged on in this thread in my opinion. I do think it is hypocritical to be upset about that, no matter how unreasonable it may seem. People do like what they like, including Somedude. And including a 4 foot 11 girl with a 6 footer for a boyfriend .

 

 

I like big tall beefy men... silly shallow me i guess :-/.. oh.. wait.. *thinks* wern't there reasons i selected him other than his height? nahhhhhh *rolls eyes*

[ascendotum]

I mainly don't understand why you feel its ok to have your preferences and turn down women based on them not meeting them.... (which i feel is 100% ok mind you) BUT (for example) you go hating on short women that like tall men. That bugs the hell outa me... im 4 11 and my bf is 6 1...

 

My point being it's ok for you to like what you like and date accordingly but why do you feel you can dictate it is wrong for other ppl to like what they like and date accordingly? hypocritical.

 

Chances are if it was just a small % of short women who needed a tall guy, he (and other shorter guys) wouldn't have an issue with it, but when its more than just a small minority and the preference/requirement is something that the person does not have themselves its a little different. I remember reading an article by a journo (likely a shorter than avg guy) who road-tested out OLD. He said he scannned the preferences of the shorter ladies, and found 80 or 90% (cant remember exactly) of them on the site he was on, had at a minimum a height requirement for a partner of their height + 6".

[The Humbler]

Having such a strict criteria with no desire for exploration or adventure doesn't make you shallow...just incredibly dull and boring

[fallenenvy]

Chances are if it was just a small % of short women who needed a tall guy, he (and other shorter guys) wouldn't have an issue with it, but when its more than just a small minority and the preference/requirement is something that the person does not have themselves its a little different. I remember reading an article by a journo (likely a shorter than avg guy) who road-tested out OLD. He said he scannned the preferences of the shorter ladies, and found 80 or 90% (cant remember exactly) of them on the site he was on, had at a minimum a height requirement for a partner of their height + 6".

 

My point is simply that it is ok for people have to preferences in what they want in a partner... women liking tall men falls into that.. large % or not.. so what.. is it then wrong because that excludes shorter men from their dating pool? So along that lines of thinking a large percentage of people have a preference for thin women is also wrong since there are curvy and larger women out there?

 

I feel that if i like a taller man thats my prerogative and i really don't care if that offends a shorter man. in that same respect if a man rejects me because im short or not the weight he desires.. oh well.. his prerogative.

[ThaWholigan]

Chances are if it was just a small % of short women who needed a tall guy, he (and other shorter guys) wouldn't have an issue with it, but when its more than just a small minority and the preference/requirement is something that the person does not have themselves its a little different. I remember reading an article by a journo (likely a shorter than avg guy) who road-tested out OLD. He said he scannned the preferences of the shorter ladies, and found 80 or 90% (cant remember exactly) of them on the site he was on, had at a minimum a height requirement for a partner of their height + 6".

I don't understand why height is such a big deal. Short dudes around me are always getting laid, no matter how short they are. I swear I only ever hear about this online.

Edited May 9, 2012 by ThaWholigan
grammar error

[zengirl]

Wanting a female with those attributes does not make a person shallow. Dismissing real women as you meet them who fall outside of those attributes and telling them that this is the reason would pretty-much define a shallow guy.

 

True.

 

fwiw, I don't think it's wanting a woman with those superficial qualities that makes SD shallow/superficial either. I don't care what the superficial qualities someone wants are, though -- wanting a man who is rich or tall or a woman who is thin and has big boobs does not make one shallow. It's the way you react to people outside your "preferences" and the way a person thinks about your preferences (are they generalities or requirements, etc?) and the impact smaller superficial changes (like, say, a haircut or a neglected shave) have on attraction and so forth that cause me to say shallow, as well as the fact that SD speaks of physical requirements -- both his and others -- 90% of the time. He cannot imagine that someone is rejecting him for any reason other than his height or looks most of the time, so he applies the same mindset to himself as he does to others.

 

Wanting someone with a rocking body does not, in and of itself, make me think a person is shallow. Saying that's what you want all the time and that people outside of that don't count, skewing what is actually average, etc, etc, are all problematic though. ESPECIALLY if you cannot respect the preferences of others, equally to your own, and you try to engage in calculation to show why your preferences are more valid.

[ascendotum]

My point is simply that it is ok for people have to preferences in what they want in a partner... women liking tall men falls into that.. large % or not.. so what.. is it then wrong because that excludes shorter men from their dating pool?

I'm not shorter then avg so it does not make a significant difference to to me, but don't be surprised then that shorter men are going to be peeved over this, because their dating pool becomes smaller.

Just like many women who put on a bit of weight get pissed with guy's preferences for thin women, or the former slimmer version of themselves.

[somedude81]

my point is simply that it is ok for people have to preferences in what they want in a partner... Women liking tall men falls into that.. Large % or not.. So what.. Is it then wrong because that excludes shorter men from their dating pool? so along that lines of thinking a large percentage of people have a preference for thin women is also wrong since there are curvy and larger women out there?

Because they CAN lose the weight.

 

A short man can NEVER get taller.

 

Also a woman who became obese has had more CONTROL in getting that way, then a short man who has had ZERO.

[udolipixie]

Because they CAN lose the weight.

 

A short man can NEVER get taller.

 

Also a woman who became obese has had more CONTROL in getting that way, then a short man who has had ZERO.

 

A short guy doesn't have zero control there are surgeries for height enlargement. An obese gal may not have any control outside of liposcution and gastric bypass if medical conditions and issues came into play.

 

Though changeability leading to a preference being considered wrong would likely be a bit back.

 

Your preference for a gal who is equally attractive can be considered wrong as a gal who isn't can't change her face without surgery.

 

Your preference for a gal who has long hair can be considered wrong as some gas can't change their hair growth rate and cycle.

 

Your preference for a gal who is of a certain age can be considered wrong as the older gals can't change their age and turn back time.

[Star Gazer]

No, it is shallow to not even give them a chance, and see if attraction develops.

 

Totally disagree, especially where the more visual gender (males) are concerned. There are millions of people on the planet. Why give "a chance" to someone you're not attracted to?

[somedude81]

OK, I calmed down now.

 

If Somedude spent more time asking about women disconnected from their looks, he might actually have success with the type of woman he is physically looking for. But that would require doing actual work to understand women.

And what do you mean about asking about women and understanding them?

 

BTW, have you ever looked at my post history and what threads I create? If so, then you would know that I AM trying to understand women.

 

And it' so much easier to talk about women's looks, and what you want physically, then what you want emotionally within a relationship.

How is it even relevant for me to talk about what I want emotionally in a relationship when I've never been in one?

But … that does not make them "stupid" or their preference "stupid," regardless of how tall they are, or how much they weigh, or what "league" YOU think they belong in, etc.

I have every right to think somebodies preferences are stupid, just as somebody can think that mine are.

What about because of your personality? Your attitude, or your level of experience, your kindness, your compassionate nature or lack thereof, etc? Should a woman be "allowed" to turn you down because of those things? Or not, because in your opinion, you are just fine for anybody?

I think it's fine for a woman to turn me down for all of those except for my lack of experience. Simply because I have had no control in if I acquired experience or not.

 

If you haven't caught on by now, I have major issues with being rejected over things I can not control.

Okay, if you really believe that, you probably are shallow.

And why do you say that?

 

I strongly believe, that if I were taller, she would be physically attracted to me, and if she were physically attracted to me, she would have no problem with dating me. I felt that we were a perfect match, the only issue was that I could not make her attracted to me.

Oh come on. I'd love to see where anyone else was ever advised to give someone a chance that they absolutely are not attracted to.

 

I don't give a chance to guys I'm not attracted to and never have. Most people don't go date people they aren't attracted to, just on the off chance that changes.

Frankly, I'm shocked that people were even agreeing with that idea.

 

Once again veggirl, you do that thing you do.

I agree, and it wouldn't take long to know.

 

But deciding ahead of time what physical traits you can and can not feel attraction to is unnecessary. And shallow.

 

I think sd admitted earlier that he has felt attraction to women outside these specs....so I don't understand why he even mentions them?

That's because it was a time when I was truly desperate and didn't care who I had sex with. And it was only about sex.

 

Yes I can have sex with somebody I'm not attracted to. But there is no way in hell I can have a relationship with her.

I like big tall beefy men... silly shallow me i guess :-/.. oh.. wait.. *thinks* wern't there reasons i selected him other than his height? nahhhhhh *rolls eyes*

But if it was a factor, then it makes you as shallow as I am.

[RiverRunning]

There's nothing wrong with having a preference. I also think there's nothing wrong in choosing to date someone to whom you are not physically attracted. However, I do think people who have strong preferences tend to get let down - especially if that preference includes multiple features (and not just, say, weight).

 

I don't think you're shallow, somedude. I DO think you're very hung up on appearances, but there's a difference there. I think that this has transformed into such a big issue for you - concern about appearing shallow, concern about whether or not you will meet an interested girl who meets your preferences - that it takes up more of your thoughts than it probably should.

[Cypress25]

While I interpret a short girl wanting a tall guy, as wanting something better than herself.

 

I'm not going to read all 15 pages of this thread, so I apologize if someone has commented on this already. But you need to get out of the mindset that taller = better. Women are supposed to be shorter than men. It's natural for a woman to be attracted to a man who is taller than her.

 

Since you're so obsessed with everything being equal, let's break it down into short, average, and tall. If a woman is average height, it stands to reason that she'd be attracted to men who are also average height. 5'5" is average for a woman and 5'10" is average for a man, so they match. By the same logic, short women would be attracted to short men and tall women would be attracted to tall men.

 

But most people are not as rigid with their preferences as you think. For example, I think green eyes are attractive, but that doesn't mean I'd refuse to date a guy with blue or brown eyes. If a woman says she prefers men who are at least 5'10, that doesn't mean she'd refuse to date a man who is only 5'9. It's just a preference, it's not a requirement. Really, people don't walk around with tape measures so they can verify their partner's height at a moment's notice.

 

You make too many assumptions about what women want. If you see a short woman with a tall man, you assume that she wanted a tall man. But you don't know that. Maybe they just happened to meet and fall in love, and she never thought about his height. I have a friend who's only 4'11 and she's married to a man who's 6'4. They look ridiculous together but they're a great couple. When they first met (they were fixed up by a mutual friend) she was turned off by his height. I believe her exact words to me were "I don't want to date a giant!" She always preferred short guys. But she decided to give him a chance anyway, and lo and behold, they fell madly in love. The moral of the story is, she didn't want a tall guy but she ended up with one anyway. Because she realized that some things are more important than height.

 

Most people are pretty flexible with their preferences. And plenty of short men successfully date and have relationships, so your height really shouldn't hold you back. Like I've said before, I don't think your height is the problem. You need to stop fixating on that and start focusing on the real problems.

[somedude81]

There's nothing wrong with having a preference. I also think there's nothing wrong in choosing to date someone to whom you are not physically attracted. However, I do think people who have strong preferences tend to get let down - especially if that preference includes multiple features (and not just, say, weight).

 

I don't think you're shallow, somedude. I DO think you're very hung up on appearances, but there's a difference there. I think that this has transformed into such a big issue for you - concern about appearing shallow, concern about whether or not you will meet an interested girl who meets your preferences - that it takes up more of your thoughts than it probably should.

The only reason I'm concerned about appearing shallow is because of the things I've read on this forum. But now I am convinced that shallowness, is not a reason why I'm single.

 

As for meeting a girl that meets my preferences, I can walk around my school and see hundreds of girls that go above and beyond my requirements. Though getting one interested in me has been an exercise in frustration.

[NateC]

A short guy doesn't have zero control there are surgeries for height enlargement. An obese gal may not have any control outside of liposcution and gastric bypass if medical conditions and issues came into play.

 

Though changeability leading to a preference being considered wrong would likely be a bit back.

 

Your preference for a gal who is equally attractive can be considered wrong as a gal who isn't can't change her face without surgery.

 

Your preference for a gal who has long hair can be considered wrong as some gas can't change their hair growth rate and cycle.

 

Your preference for a gal who is of a certain age can be considered wrong as the older gals can't change their age and turn back time.

 

Uh...that might be true, but isn't that 1) extremely expensive, and 2) extremely painful?

 

Attractiveness is hard to place. Men and women have their own preferences and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

[somedude81]

I'm not going to read all 15 pages of this thread, so I apologize if someone has commented on this already. But you need to get out of the mindset that taller = better. Women are supposed to be shorter than men. It's natural for a woman to be attracted to a man who is taller than her.

 

Since you're so obsessed with everything being equal, let's break it down into short, average, and tall. If a woman is average height, it stands to reason that she'd be attracted to men who are also average height. 5'5" is average for a woman and 5'10" is average for a man, so they match. By the same logic, short women would be attracted to short men and tall women would be attracted to tall men.

Yeah that sounds fine on paper.

 

But as fallenenvy pointed out, short women want tall men too. In fact it's basically stated that nobody prefers a short man. All I can do is hope to meet a girl who simply doesn't care about height. In other words, my height is neutral at best, and a dealbreaker at worst.

 

You make too many assumptions about what women want. If you see a short woman with a tall man, you assume that she wanted a tall man. But you don't know that. Maybe they just happened to meet and fall in love, and she never thought about his height. I have a friend who's only 4'11 and she's married to a man who's 6'4. They look ridiculous together but they're a great couple. When they first met (they were fixed up by a mutual friend) she was turned off by his height. I believe her exact words to me were "I don't want to date a giant!" She always preferred short guys. But she decided to give him a chance anyway, and lo and behold, they fell madly in love. The moral of the story is, she didn't want a tall guy but she ended up with one anyway. Because she realized that some things are more important than height.

Are you sure you're telling that story to the right guy?

 

How about a story of a woman who changed her preferences and married a man shorter than her and he wasn't rich or famous?

 

Most people are pretty flexible with their preferences. And plenty of short men successfully date and have relationships, so your height really shouldn't hold you back. Like I've said before, I don't think your height is the problem. You need to stop fixating on that and start focusing on the real problems.

The key word is problems.

 

And I believe that different problems have differing amount of impact on my inability to date.

 

Problem #1: My Height.

 

If I were average height, I believe that I would have had a GF by now, without having to change anything else about myself. Women would be physically attracted to me.

 

Problem #2: My lack of confidence and self-esteem.

 

This is caused by me being short and not being able to get a girlfriend. Honestly, it feels more like a symptom than a problem. But low confidence has made it more difficult to approach women and make the necessary moves. If I were average height, this problem would not exist.

 

Problem #3: Connection/chemistry

 

I don't really know how to connect with a woman in an intimate way and make her want me as more than a friend. With no physical attraction it's an uphill battle. If I were average height, this problem would not exist. That is because when a girl likes a guy, she makes it easy for him and things would have just worked themselves out.

 

If I work hard and smart, I can overcome problems 2 & 3 and I should be able to date. The main reason why other short guys can be good with women, is because for some reason, 2 and 3 were never problems for them. The got lucky I guess.

 

Of course, if I were taller, problems 2 and 3 wouldn't exist. If anything, they are merely bullet-points under being short.

[udolipixie]

Uh...that might be true, but isn't that 1) extremely expensive, and 2) extremely painful?

 

Yes on both accounts just letting him be aware an option does exist whether it's attainable or desirable for said person is a toss up.

 

Attractiveness is hard to place. Men and women have their own preferences and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

 

I agree which is why when one starts putting hypocrisy, double standards, and right/wrong on others preferences or requirements it can and usually tends to bite back.

Edited May 9, 2012 by udolipixie

[ThaWholigan]

Yeah that sounds fine on paper.

 

But as fallenenvy pointed out, short women want tall men too. In fact it's basically stated that nobody prefers a short man. All I can do is hope to meet a girl who simply doesn't care about height. In other words, my height is neutral at best, and a dealbreaker at worst.

 

 

Are you sure you're telling that story to the right guy?

 

How about a story of a woman who changed her preferences and married a man shorter than her and he wasn't rich or famous?

 

 

The key word is problems.

 

And I believe that different problems have differing amount of impact on my inability to date.

 

Problem #1: My Height.

 

If I were average height, I believe that I would have had a GF by now, without having to change anything else about myself. Women would be physically attracted to me.

 

Problem #2: My lack of confidence and self-esteem.

 

This is caused by me being short and not being able to get a girlfriend. Honestly, it feels more like a symptom than a problem. But low confidence has made it more difficult to approach women and make the necessary moves. If I were average height, this problem would not exist.

 

Problem #3: Connection/chemistry

 

I don't really know how to connect with a woman in an intimate way and make her want me as more than a friend. With no physical attraction it's an uphill battle. If I were average height, this problem would not exist. That is because when a girl likes a guy, she makes it easy for him and things would have just worked themselves out.

 

If I work hard and smart, I can overcome problems 2 & 3 and I should be able to date. The main reason why other short guys can be good with women, is because for some reason, 2 and 3 were never problems for them. The got lucky I guess.

 

Of course, if I were taller, problems 2 and 3 wouldn't exist. If anything, they are merely bullet-points under being short.

Nobody has made height your problem, you have. Your height isn't actually a problem, but the only reason why it could possibly be a problem is because you think it is.

 

I know you think it's the reason (sorry about that), and I'm sure you've had experiences that somehow validate this view (also sorry about that), but I'm telling you, you have to accept that you're short. You also have to realise that it's NOT the reason you don't have a GF. The fact that you think girls reject you because of your height is probably a problem, but not your actual height itself.

 

Short dudes don't have any massive disadvantages in terms of strength or women who are attracted to them. I see short dudes having girlfriends and getting laid all the time. Shorter than you. And fat. And Ugly . Seriously.....

[somedude81]

Nobody has made height your problem, you have. Your height isn't actually a problem, but the only reason why it could possibly be a problem is because you think it is.

 

I know you think it's the reason (sorry about that), and I'm sure you've had experiences that somehow validate this view (also sorry about that), but I'm telling you, you have to accept that you're short. You also have to realise that it's NOT the reason you don't have a GF. The fact that you think girls reject you because of your height is probably a problem, but not your actual height itself.

 

Short dudes don't have any massive disadvantages in terms of strength or women who are attracted to them. I see short dudes having girlfriends and getting laid all the time. Shorter than you. And fat. And Ugly . Seriously.....

Did you even read the post you quoted? Or have you read any of the posts on this forum, this thread even? Women are attracted to tall men. Some even require a man to be a certain height to even give him the time of day.

 

A man who is short, loses points with a woman, and he has to make them up some other way. The short guys you know who can get women, do that. They know how to make up for their lack of height. But if they weren't short, there wouldn't be anything for them to make up for.