What Qualifies as Abuse??

[gobain]

There has been quite a debate in the Breaking Up forum regarding an issue where a guy pushed his fiance in the heat of an arguement. She left him citing fear and mistrust because of this. Many people, including myself, have been debating at whether his "pushing" her is actually abuse or an overreaction on her part.

 

The discussion has raised some questions about her culpibility in the fight, as her fiance was reacting to bad behavior on her part. And, as is quite often the case, alcohol was involved.

 

At one point I responded that "it didn't matter whether he walked in on her riding some guy like he was Seattle Slew, no one has the right to lay their hands on you."

 

In my opinion, anything done that elicits fear for one's safety can qualify as abuse.

 

I would be interested to hear the opinions of others on this issue.

[moimeme]

I said something similar to what you said.

 

her culpibility in the fight, as her fiance was reacting to bad behavior on her part

 

This cannot be acceptable. NOBODY has the right to 'react to bad behaviour' of someone else's by physically attacking that person.

 

What constitutes 'bad behaviour'? What if she had burned dinner? How about if the house wasn't tidy enough?

 

Sorry, but this was abuse, pure and simple.

 

Abuse is about control. When his gf did something he didn't appreciate (i.e. he was not able to control), he assaulted her. He put a hand on her in anger to express his displeasure that she did something he did not like. If she had been having sex with two men on the table in front of him, he still would have no right to lay an angry hand on her!

 

Totally, completely unacceptable. Nobody has the right to attack another person because that other person chose to behave a certain way.

[Matilda]

In my first marriage, there was abuse, the first thing that happened was he pushed me, and I kind of dismissed it, feeling somehow responsible, because we were in a heated argument.

 

Well, things escalated from there, it seemed that every time we got in an argument there was physical behavior of some sort. Mostly him throwing things, but then a couple of times of throwing me to the floor, and then I got out of the marriage.

 

Physical abuse is going to happen when you are having an argument. It doesn't happen in a vacuum. Like, the man (or woman) just pushes or hits for the heck of it, because he just wants to. There are strong emotions involved, and the abuser deals with these emotions physically.

 

I think that person did the right thing by leaving, in my experience it only gets worse.

[Fayebelle]

Why start a new post to continue bashing Royal? If you wanted to continue rehashing the same points why not stay on the same thread? I understand gobain tried to start this as a seperate topic but everyone else is just bringing it back to him.

[gobain]

I did not start this post to bash anyone. I did not mention anyone's nom de plume.

 

I found some of the opinions brought up in the discussion regarding that particular situation disturbing and merely thought to try to find out people's opinions on what constitutes abuse. I purposely moved to another forum to do so.

 

Although I used his situation as a starting of point, it is not my intention to discuss Royal's situation in particular. I've said all I can say on that matter.

 

I am intersted in the opinions and thoughts of others on this subject and chose to pursue it. That is my choice. As it is your choice to participate, or not, in the discussion.

 

As clarification for anyone who wants to reply, I'm am not looking for a judgement on the situation I cited. I am looking for opinions on where one draws the line in behavior towards others. Are there those who consider certain actions justified in some situations? Is it only the perspective of the victim that determines what is abuse or the intentions of the agressor?

[Fayebelle]

I understand your intentions gobain- I was simply commenting about the replies b/c they were rehashing what had already been stated.

 

I think it's a good topic but one I find hard to address in such general terms b/c each case and those involoved are dif.

 

For that reason I disagree w/ your statement that anything done to elicit fear is abuse b/c many couples have relationships where they beat the hell out of each other but are not afraid b/c it's just the nature of their relationship. To me these relationships are still abusive even though there is no fear.

 

It's really a hard thing to label w/one definition.

[Pyrannaste]

Hello, Gobain.

Really interesting topic.

 

I am looking for opinions on where one draws the line in behavior towards others. Are there those who consider certain actions justified in some situations?

 

Unfortunetely my point of view will not be impartial since the other day I slapped my bf (first time something like that happened in three years), which was *extremely* wrong no matter what my reasons were.

 

IMO (and IMO only) giving a push, calling someone names, slapping someone ( ), hurting your SO while having sex (like biting him/her hard, pushing too hard while having anal sex, squeezing his balls (I was impressed with someone's thread whose girlfriend would not stop squeezing hard his balls when she was orgasming)) on a single occasion does not necessarily make him/her an abusive person.

What I think makes the difference is not making those things become an habit. And apologizing and actually *never* doing them again once you realize it was *really*wrong.

 

Also, I think that if you *really* hurt your partner on purpose -even on a single occasion- that is abuse.

I see a huge difference between a push and a punch.

Or between a fleeble slap and a hard slap.

Also, picture a 120 pounds girl punching a male bodybuilder on a body part like arm or leg. Then picture the same 120 pounds girl punching another lady, who is 100 pounds, in the face. IMO there is a big difference.

 

Is it only the perspective of the victim that determines what is abuse or the intentions of the agressor?

 

My first impulse was saying it is 95% the intentions of the agressor. But then I realized there are people who are abusive and unable to realize it. To some people it is just normal to hit your partner because they grew up that way.

There are also people who are used to hear their parents call each other names, would have no problem with their own SO calling them names....so they call their partners names, too. Without ralizing that what is 'normal' and 'no big deal' to them might not be to their SO.

 

So I guess it's about half and half.

[CurlyIam]

In my opinion, anything done that elicits fear for one's safety can qualify as abuse.

 

My mom used to shout at me and at my little sister when we were little. She still does. That's how she is, she does have an anger management problem. I have realized as I got older that she doesn't mean it. But I get scared to death when I hear shouting. It is a physicall response. I hate it, I get sick! And to tell you the truth, the things that hurt more are rarely told on a high tone.

 

Anyway, my point is it depends. I think that if you consider as true a false hypothesis, you can prove anything. A hypothesis is formed by

 

A. information

B. conclusion.

 

What you are doing is this: you are altering the information by choosing to say that it is not important. It will most defianly affect your conclusion and in the end your whole hypothesis.

 

As I said on the other thread, "the context". It is quite easy and handy to judge only actions. What happenes to "when", "where" or "why"? It's like you've decided he's guilty first - as, indeed, he did push her - and he has to prove he's innocent. This is not how it works. The only pertinent judge and jury are the people involved - here "the victim".

 

Of course I'd be scared if my bf pushed me. No matter what the circumstances. I would be scared of the fact that he chose as a way to physically express his anger. He would either be in couseling or out of my life. But that's me. People are different, react differently. Some turn into abusers - I somehow tink that this word deluted its meaning - some were just out of themselves and did stupid regretably things. Are we to do like the priests did during the Inquisition: "kill" them all and let God take by his side the good ones?

 

 

We all make mistakes. sometimes bigger, sometimes smaller. But always, always, the ones we hurt most are the one we love. It's all about seeing if it's worth the trust. Because that is the main point: TRUST! And then faith, hope...

[Miss_Behavin143]

Originally posted by moimeme

 

 

Abuse is about control. When his gf did something he didn't appreciate (i.e. he was not able to control), he assaulted her. He put a hand on her in anger to express his displeasure that she did something he did not like. If she had been having sex with two men on the table in front of him, he still would have no right to lay an angry hand on her!

 

Totally, completely unacceptable. Nobody has the right to attack another person because that other person chose to behave a certain way.

 

 

I ABSOLUTELY agree with this. If you lay a hand on someone out of anger... be it pushing, slapping, WHATEVER....... or hit someone with SOMETHING out of anger.... I could not agree more that it is abuse.

 

Abuse is the stem of anger. You wouldn't push, punch, beat anybody for any reason if you weren't angry at them, resentful, bitter, hurt, etc.....

To do this out of these emotions....... I, personally agree to think it's abuse.

[johan]

I don't agree. I think intent to frighten or harm is abuse. If you "lay" your hand on someone, no matter how, and it is calculated to do no harm nor to frighten them, then you aren't abusing them. It could be a push, a punch, a slap, whatever. And for that matter, it doesn't have to be physical contact. A loud scream could qualify as abuse. A light harmless punch or push to emphasize a point may just be part of the argument. I don't advise it, however, because you can't predict that the other person is going to interpret it the same way.

 

I believe in the original post the girl is sort of abusing the guy. I wasn't there, but I assume he calculated his push to neither scare nor hurt her. Just to get her attention. I ASSUME this. And if that's true, she probably knows it. And she's deliberately over-reacting to make a point and scare him. She's hurting him and she knows it. Assuming I'm right, I think what she's doing is abusive.

[moimeme]

Just by the way, abusers and abuse have been studied a LOT. So people may think whatever they like, but there is a lot of information out there and people who do not understand abuse would do well to read some of it.

 

http://www.recovery-man.com/abusive/abusive.htm

 

http://www.askheartbeat.com/html/signs.html

[Thinkalot]

Interesting thread, and something I too have been pondering. In that other thread, I think if the guy is truly sorry, and getting help...he should be given a chance for this one-off incident. If it happens again, different story.

 

I know my view is at odds with some others, but I think intent to harm, or often resorting to violence in a fight etc is abuse. A push in a drunken incident is wrong. No doubt. But I don't think it qualifies someone as an abuser.

 

I can say that over a year ago my fiance well and truly verbally abused me, after he discovered something about my sexual past, through reading something he should not have. In no way did I deserve or ask for that.

 

I gave him a chance. I forgave him, because he sought help, counselling with me, and was truly sorry. We spent time finding out what made him react the way he did. It was hard for me to move on, and get past it, but I did. It was hard for him too...he was still upset, and also embarassed by his own reactions, and having a tough time sorting through stuff. But we did...and here we are...engaged and in love, and stronger for the things we have come through.

 

I feel if I had been on this site back then, and had posted the things he actually said, some people on here would have told me to run in the opposite direction. They would have said, it was a sign of something bad, and would happen more in the future and so on. I know it was verbal, is not physical...but still. Even now I choose not to repeat the types of things which were said in his moment of anger and hurt and confusion. It didn't simmer down after a day either...it took a few days, before he calmed down, such was the extent of his hurt and anger. Counselling helped me to understand WHY he reacted the way he did, which was crucial for me, and helped me forgive and understand. It actually also cleared up many other things between us, some of which we hadn't even known were there.

 

Now my fiance, shouts and swears in the heat of an argument. But he only yells at me, when I am chasing him, or cornering him, even when he tries to remove himself from the situation! My lesson is learning to leave someone alone, when they ask to be left alone. It's not nice that he swears when I chase, but a person has limits, and when he is trying to shut himself away, and I keep following, that's his final reaction. That is not abuse. He is in fact doing all he can, to calm things down, by removing himself.

 

And he has never verbally abused me, as he did that one week, ever again. So my trust and faith in him, has proved to be correct. I am so glad I did not walk!

 

Perhaps that is why I am more inclined not to quickly label someone as an abuser, after a single mistake, without giving that person a chance. We ALL make mistakes from time to time. I also think, as Curly has stated many times, you do need to look at the context of the situation. I am NOT saying it makes it right, but I don't think it can be ignored.

[CurlyIam]

Originally posted by moimeme

Just by the way, abusers and abuse have been studied a LOT. So people may think whatever they like, but there is a lot of information out there and people who do not understand abuse would do well to read some of it.

 

http://www.recovery-man.com/abusive/abusive.htm

 

http://www.askheartbeat.com/html/signs.html

 

Thanks moi, the links are great. And they all do the same thing as I did: look at the context in order to decide. Look at what I found on the site:

 

 

Does the person you love...

• constantly keep track of your time?

 

• act jealous and possessive?

 

• accuse you of being unfaithful or flirting?

 

• discourage your relationships with friends and family?

 

• prevent or discourage you from working, interacting with friends or attending school?

 

• constantly criticize or belittle you?

 

• control all finances and force you to account for what you spend? (Reasonable cooperative budgeting excepted.)

 

• humiliate you in front of others? (Including "jokes" at your expense.)

 

• destroy or take your personal property or sentimental items?

 

• have affairs?

 

• threaten to hurt you, your children or pets? Threaten to use a weapon?

 

• push, hit, slap, punch, kick, or bite you or your children?

 

• force you to have sex against your will, or demand sexual acts you are uncomfortable with?

 

They are looking at the background of that person, consider past experiences, education, addiction etc. They are to be interpreted together not separate.

[CurlyIam]

Plus... I was wondering: why didn't gobain put this on the "abuse" forum? I know about reasons like: to get more responses, but still .

[Fayebelle]

I am still curious as to what everyone would think if the roles were reversed. If the WOMAN had pushed a man.

 

Or if it were two friends of the same sex- would there still be this outrage or is this mainly b/c a man pushed a woman.

 

BE HONEST- it would have never been such a big deal.

[moimeme]

A push in a drunken incident is wrong. No doubt. But I don't think it qualifies someone as an abuser.

 

However, it can be a sign that someone is an abuser, and it is often not a wise idea to ignore such a sign.

 

That your fellow got angry but isn't an abuser is one thing, but, Thinkalot, I'll bet anything that he has never tried to justify it by blaming you.

 

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you on this one. The guy in the thread is getting anger management counselling. If the counsellor had thought this was only a one-off incident, the counsellor would not still be working with the guy.

 

The gal had already been in an abusive relationships. Women who end up with abusers tend to gravitate towards the same sorts of men again and again. Having once been with an abuser, she is more than wise to flee at any sign this guy might be one, too.

 

You folks are right about context, but the context here is different, Thinkalot, and verbal abuse is different from physical abuse. This guy did what he did to this gal because he was mad that she did something he didn't like.

 

The context here is control. And THAT is the significant issue. It is the REASON behind his action that is the issue. Those of you who excuse him by saying she did a bad thing better wise up - they are excusing someone for laying an angry hand on another by saying the other 'deserved' it. This is the thinking of the abuser. NOBODY deserves to have someone push, hit, grab, or shove them because the pusher doesn't like what the other person has done.

[Pyrannaste]

I am still curious as to what everyone would think if the roles were reversed. If the WOMAN had pushed a man.

 

I think that if the woman was very muscolar and stronger than the man and she practised boxe or martial arts, the man would get anyone's sympathy.

 

Or if it were two friends of the same sex- would there still be this outrage or is this mainly b/c a man pushed a woman.

 

To me it is not really sex but strenght and body size that make the difference.

 

Anyway..probably you are right, there would not be such an outrage.

I'm picturing a girl pushing her female friend because she saw her flirting and 'grinding' with her boyfriend. I think she'd be less likely to be called an abuser than a guy pushing his gf because he saw her flirting with a male friend.

[Fayebelle]

Your reply makes a good point- Intimidation- that would definately be my definition of abuse. It doesn't always cause fear but it i def about power and control.

[gobain]

FYI - I have only perused a few forums - didn't realize that there was a section for abuse because it's not something I would usually go to - it was simply a general question.

 

To be sure I will be cheking out what some are going through in that forum.

 

I've found the answers and links from everybody very interesting and helpful to me in my understanding of this issue.

 

Thanks to all.

[Matilda]

Maybe, the question shouldn't be what is abuse, because I think we all can agree that physical behavior is abuse. Maybe, the question should be: "What makes a person an "abuser"?

[Fayebelle]

Excellent Point- when is it a chronic problem and not an isolated event. Is it severity of the initial "attack" or frequency? Okay that sounds bad -like quality vs quantity. Can someone else word what I mean b/c my linguistics are fried today!

[CurlyIam]

Matilda, IMHO, the question is "does someone become an abuser or is one an abuser".

 

Abuse is a very strong word. One becomes an abuser. An isolated incedent does not make one an abuser - I do admit that the logical condition would be for that person during that one time not to beat the crap out of you .

 

It is a way of handling stressful situation. One goes more and more down this road to turn into an abuser.

 

Yes, pushing is the first stepdown this road. But it doesn't mean he got there just as reading the first chapter for an exam won't help you pass it!

 

PEople are not "abusers"!!! They turn into abusers.

[Thinkalot]

Originally posted by moimeme

 

I'm sorry, but I disagree with you on this one.

 

And isn't that the beauty of this site...so many different opinions and ideas floating around. I usually agree with your views Merry. Honestly, I can see both sides of the argument here too, but still tend to think your views sound very harsh in relation to the other poster mentioned. I realise though, that my views might be clouded/confused by my own experiences.

 

At first my fiance, did try to blame his verbal abuse on me. Eventually, though he realised it was his problem, and not mine. That's when I decided to move back in with him, and go to counselling.

 

I still don't think the other poster is trying to blame his gf for what he did. Pointing to the thing that sparked you, is not saying it was that person's fault. My fiance read a diary of mine...that's what sparked him. That doesn't mean it was my fault for writing those things, or leaving the diary where he could find it. I guess I am just taking a different meaning from the posts than you are.