Just been burned...

[2sunny]

She:

1. Deleted her match.com profile

2. stopped contact with OM

3. Intitiated planning a trip away with him

4. Told trader she loves him and wants to work on the M

 

Anything else Trader?

 

Deleted the profile - but is it in the "hidden mode"? Is she still capable of communicating with profiles there in private?

 

I thought she hadn't yet sent a letter yet to the OM that "it's over" - has she?

 

Initiated the trip - but has Trader thinking "if he pisses her off" between now and then she holds the power and will say "I'm not going". That's not building trust - that's creating false hope.

 

If she loves him - she should be taking actions that match her words. Counseling for her is critical. And rebuilding trust is best - instead of creating a R based on fear from both sides.

 

 

 

That about it. We are building the M from the ground up. One day at a time. More like one weekend at at time. No heavy lifting during the week. More like maintain the status quo. We don't live together. So any conversations during the week are mostly on the phone, and mostly short.

 

This could disinigrate on me at any instant. I realize that.

 

I could get up tommorow and wife says its too much. I dunno. One day at a time.

 

Maintaining the status quo won't cut it - no way - no how. Ask any couple who has recovered their M from infidelity - it didn't get to a happy and healthy place by "maintaining the status quo".

 

It makes me very sad for you that you are settling for so little from her end. She should be giving you a ton of evidence of exactly what she's doing to CHANGE! Otherwise you are just willing to take back a cheater who WILL cheat again given time.

Edited May 11, 2012 by 2sunny

[trader]

Deleted the profile - but is it in the "hidden mode"? Is she still capable of communicating with profiles there in private?

I had her profile saved as one of my favorites. Yes I got on to see what she had written. Her file is no longer accessible. I will see if we can scrub it more. When? On the weekend.

 

I thought she hadn't yet sent a letter yet to the OM that "it's over" - has she?

I haven't asked any questions about this in a few days. We will nail this down, soon. When? On the weekend.

 

Initiated the trip - but has Trader thinking "if he pisses her off" between now and then she holds the power and will say "I'm not going". That's not building trust - that's creating false hope.

 

Your word is fear. Mine is trust. I am a long way from trusting. She didn't say anything like she would change her mind. But.... I will be in "but mode" for a long time. I'll bet that is not uncommon for BS.

 

 

 

 

Maintaining the status quo won't cut it - no way - no how. Ask any couple who has recovered their M from infidelity - it didn't get to a happy and healthy place by "maintaining the status quo".

 

Agreed. This status quo is a weekly rhythm of setting boundaries and seeing what the responces are, plus gauging the action. This weekend is only the second weekend.

 

I do not like talking on the phone. I am not there to see her face. If the conversation goes to a place that makes her unconfrontable. It is too easy to hang up. I want conversation I can stay in. I'll wait for the weekend to nail down these very important points.

[2sunny]

I had her profile saved as one of my favorites. Yes I got on to see what she had written. Her file is no longer accessible. I will see if we can scrub it more. When? On the weekend.

 

 

I haven't asked any questions about this in a few days. We will nail this down, soon. When? On the weekend.

 

 

 

Your word is fear. Mine is trust. I am a long way from trusting. She didn't say anything like she would change her mind. But.... I will be in "but mode" for a long time. I'll bet that is not uncommon for BS.

 

Agreed. This status quo is a weekly rhythm of setting boundaries and seeing what the responces are, plus gauging the action. This weekend is only the second weekend.

 

I do not like talking on the phone. I am not there to see her face. If the conversation goes to a place that makes her unconfrontable. It is too easy to hang up. I want conversation I can stay in. I'll wait for the weekend to nail down these very important points.

 

Does your phone have face time - or can you access Skype?

 

Is she avoiding conflict - in your opinion?

[Bellechica]

Trader, are you both avoiding conflict? I'm pretty good at that in my M and so is my H. It's part of the reason I am in this sh*thole.

 

What is your gut telling you?

[JustJoe]

I have no problem with people owning their actions Joe. I'm a conservative and I work in law enforcement where absolutely NOBODY owns their actions. You're preaching to the wrong guy in that regard.

 

I have no guilt over what happened with my ex. She did it. It's on her.

 

I'm simply pointing out that people who come here and post . . . if they are honest . . . will at times realize that certain things they did or didn't do in the marriage may have contributed to their spouses affair.

 

There is no such thing as an unwitting affair. I agree with you. I'm stating a human reality however when I say that there are times when everything aligns perfectly and affairs are the result, even though the person who got involved in the affair may be the last person any of us think of as doing something so outlandish.

 

Let me toss two extremes at you to make my point:

 

1. Spouse is married to someone who has zero interest in sexual union. The high libido spouse is left to fend for themselves. The high libido spouse may not even be the type to cheat and may otherwise be very dedicated to the marriage. But perhaps they have young kids, or other reasons that prevent them from seeking an immediate divorce. They are ripe for an affair to occur. There is a cause and effect there due to the one spouse declaring that sex is pretty much over for them.

 

2. A woman who lives in an emotionally or physically abusive relationship. Like scenario #1, she may feel trapped, have kids, be dependent on the male half financially so she just tolerates her husband's abuse. By coincidence, she meets a guy at her local fitness club who treats her far better than her husband does, and an affair results. Cause and effect.

 

I'm NOT excusing affairs in any way. I'm spelling out a reality that we as the human race have to deal with. It's not pretty and nobody likes it, but it's there, and it's not going anywhere any time soon.

Sorry for the intrusion, Trader, but I did want to answer BK. In human terms there is no cause and effect. X does not always cause Y. You have forgotten What Graham Greene called, "The human element". Human interactions are not a mathmatical equation. There is ALWAYS a variable, or choice. In each of your examples, there was a choice being made to cheat. Sometimes the choice is easy and sometimes hard, but the variable is ALWAYS present. In your example #1 What if the spouse is incapable , because of illness or injury from consumating the sex act? The partner might, because of her love for her husband and instead of choosing to cheat, find her stimulation through toys. In example # 2, The man's abusive actions are caused by PTSD (something I know about, intimately) and his wife realizes this and when approached by her fitness friend, rejects him and works on healing her husband , instead. You see, there is always a choice. You can choose the path of honesty, honor and loyalty, or you can choose the path of deceit, betrayal, and selfishness. How you choose is the mark of your character.

[JustJoe]

I am no angel. My mother was a cheater, and I was the OM in an affair. In terms of choice, I failed, but I learned. In order to do so, I had to embrace honesty, to myself, my AP and to the husband of my MW. I did so and reclaimed my integrity. Without integrity, we are monsters of our own making. Once again, sorry for the T/J, trader, and I will leave now.

[trader]

Does your phone have face time - or can you access Skype?

 

Is she avoiding conflict - in your opinion?

 

No I don't. Still, phones can be hung up on. While she hasn't done that this week, she did it a lot in the past year. I do not want to use phones for serious talk.

 

I wouldn't say she is avoiding it. But because of her disposition, some conversations are really very wearing on her. This has been this way for as long as I know her. She often goes silent. Now on the phone that could mean she is listening, or crying. I only will know if I am with her. If she is listening, I can go on. If she is crying, she isn't listening and I need to stop and get her to tell me what she is thinking. Once that is done, I can move on.

[trader]

Trader, are you both avoiding conflict? I'm pretty good at that in my M and so is my H. It's part of the reason I am in this sh*thole.

What is your gut telling you?

 

Conflict. I don't avoid it. Perhaps, I sometimes plod right into it. She doesn't have a problem with dishing it out, either. But constructive conflict, is much more difficult to acheive. I have to say that between the both of us, I think I stay in the game much better. I am not one to run. She runs. If I blow my top, or really do something stupid, or am flat wrong, I am real quick to admit it, and apologize. She really has a flaw with this. She might believe she is wrong, and I will hear that someday. But it could be a long time before I hear it. Instead, she likes to show she is sorry by being nice or acting like it never happened. That sounds like avoidance, doesn't it. It is what it is. Now on this subject of A, she is talking about it.

 

When I am using all my skills to deal with a touchy subject I can usually get us to a place where we share a mutual understanding of what needs to be done. I ain't always so good, though.

 

At the moment, we are not avoiding the issues in front of us. Really we are not. We are both digesting each other's positions on what has happened. It will take time.

[2sunny]

No I don't. Still, phones can be hung up on. While she hasn't done that this week, she did it a lot in the past year. I do not want to use phones for serious talk.

 

I wouldn't say she is avoiding it. But because of her disposition, some conversations are really very wearing on her. This has been this way for as long as I know her. She often goes silent. Now on the phone that could mean she is listening, or crying. I only will know if I am with her. If she is listening, I can go on. If she is crying, she isn't listening and I need to stop and get her to tell me what she is thinking. Once that is done, I can move on.

 

Are their conversations where she brings things up - where she talks most of the time and you listen to what she's telling you? Or does she simply wait to she when you want info from her?

[2sunny]

Conflict. I don't avoid it. Perhaps, I sometimes plod right into it. She doesn't have a problem with dishing it out, either. But constructive conflict, is much more difficult to acheive. I have to say that between the both of us, I think I stay in the game much better. I am not one to run. She runs. If I blow my top, or really do something stupid, or am flat wrong, I am real quick to admit it, and apologize. She really has a flaw with this. She might believe she is wrong, and I will hear that someday. But it could be a long time before I hear it. Instead, she likes to show she is sorry by being nice or acting like it never happened. That sounds like avoidance, doesn't it. It is what it is. Now on this subject of A, she is talking about it.

 

When I am using all my skills to deal with a touchy subject I can usually get us to a place where we share a mutual understanding of what needs to be done. I ain't always so good, though.

 

At the moment, we are not avoiding the issues in front of us. Really we are not. We are both digesting each other's positions on what has happened. It will take time.

 

Your last sentence- if you TWO can quickly move to a plan of what needs to be done now today - each day to rebuild trust - that would at least be something instead of nothing (I mean nothing but digesting it and mulling it over). The idea is to invoke change so that the R can grow and become a new R - but that never happens while digesting it.

 

Just my immediate thoughts...

[Bellechica]

Trader, have a conversation about conflict avoidance. Ask what she wants and needs. Tell her your needs and wants.

 

I think we are all here on LS because we want help. I am remorseful and truthful in my determination to rebuild my M.

 

Be strong, Trader, let her know how strongly you feel.

[trader]

Are their conversations where she brings things up - where she talks most of the time and you listen to what she's telling you? Or does she simply wait to she when you want info from her?

 

It depends on the topic. She is the most animated when we are making plans for the future. We are talking about what we are going to do to the house, how we are going to do positive things together, what I should do before she gets here. If we are talking about a vacation. When we are talking about the A, things don't flow so freely, but we still talk.

 

If I bring up the A, then we are talking about it back and forth.

[trader]

Be strong, Trader, let her know how strongly you feel.

 

I do. I am not the silent type. She is actually more the hermit.

[turnera]

Why aren't you using a therapist?

[trader]

Why aren't you using a therapist?

 

I have explained this before.

[2sunny]

And I'm keeping in mind she cheated TWICE or THREE TIMES...

 

This isn't an ooopsie situation - she INTENDED to cheat and therefore it was calculated knowing she would hurt Trader.

 

 

OK, just to keep facts straight. If you want to think of this as three affairs, fine. I think of it as one affair that advanced through two guys, up to, but not including guy#3. This all occured over two months. I got her attention while she was moving from #2 to #3. 1 and two were fantasies. #3 guy is the most like me.

 

You are helping her to minimize her affairs.

 

Stop helping her. Stop justifying this.

 

She spent TIME and ENERGY focusing on other men while married to you! That time and energy could have been growing YOUR M better but instead she spent it on other men!

 

She could potentially still be doing that now - as you don't know what she's doing during her whole week...

 

The core of her is to cheat - she must be willing to fix that part of HER that's so broken.

[turnera]

I have explained this before.

What, that you have considered it and may do it at some time? You're hurting now. And I was talking about a marriage therapist. She is only happy when talking about the future, etc., right? That is rug sweeping and NOT helpful to fixing your marriage. A MC will keep her on course and make her talk about NOW.

[2sunny]

What, that you have considered it and may do it at some time? You're hurting now. And I was talking about a marriage therapist. She is only happy when talking about the future, etc., right? That is rug sweeping and NOT helpful to fixing your marriage. A MC will keep her on course and make her talk about NOW.

 

His wife hasn't taken any solid ACTION that shows she's willing to be all in on the M.

 

She's got barely one foot in and one foot out.

[trader]

His wife hasn't taken any solid ACTION that shows she's willing to be all in on the M.

 

She's got barely one foot in and one foot out.

 

 

Well stated. Sunny has kept up with the entire thread.

[2sunny]

Well stated. Sunny has kept up with the entire thread.

 

You COULD do what I did Trader.

 

Find a company to provide you health insurance.

 

Then divorce her so that you can have a woman who regards and respects you with love and compassion!

 

Find a gal that loves you completely without having to wonder if she's in or out...

[trader]

You COULD do what I did Trader.

 

Find a company to provide you health insurance.

 

Then divorce her so that you can have a woman who regards and respects you with love and compassion!

 

Find a gal that loves you completely without having to wonder if she's in or out...

 

If it comes down to that, I will. When your WH stepped over the line, did you give him one chance to get it right?

[turnera]

My husband hasn't cheated on me in 35 years. I told him the very first year that if he ever did, he would never see me again. I asked him recently why he never cheated, and he brought up that one statement.

[2sunny]

If it comes down to that, I will. When your WH stepped over the line, did you give him one chance to get it right?

 

Yes. At the ten year mark and our kids were 3 and 5 years old.

 

He did the same thing at the 20 year mark and I just divorced him without any reason to listen to his excuses. But he wasn't sorry he cheated - he was only sorry he got caught.

 

Does he still love me? Yes. Is that fair to his new wife? No. Is he still a cheater on her? It sure looks like there's evidence to believe that...

 

The problem with your W is that she's not taking ACTION (immediate and quick action) to get into recovering the marriage and the damage she caused. That's never a good sign for healing.

 

The longer she waits - the more it becomes a bigger signal for more problems.

[trader]

His wife hasn't taken any solid ACTION that shows she's willing to be all in on the M.

 

She's got barely one foot in and one foot out.

 

I guess I'll elaborate. We have only been considering our future for a week. A week with us right now, is more like a day or two. Since she is not in the house.

 

Also, I'd say we are both on the fence. This weekend I hope to make more headway. It would be nice to nail some stuff down.

[trader]

 

The longer she waits - the more it becomes a bigger signal for more problems.

 

I get you on this. I am giving her a chance. A chance like gamble. I can be patient for the short term. We will see.