2sunny Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 Patience Kindness Understanding Loose boundary Did you look at how that worked out for Ninjas Husband? His wife walked all over him while he did things like you - and she never did finish it with her OM... And now Ninja and his wife aren't together. He was TOO UNDERSTANDING of her BS! And he thought I was being gloomy too - but I was just trying to nudge him to get a solid boundary - one that wouldn't allow her to treat him terribly. But he just wouldn't make demands and wouldn't respect himself to tell her to DO the work to invoke CHANGE in herself. Go read his thread - it looks a bit like yours. You have nothing to work with until she changes and you require her to END it with her OM and have complete transparency in every area of her li. She is ONLY allowed to blame HERSELF for HER actions and HER CHOICES. Don't you ever take the blame for what SHE DID! She's not doing the work - so Hereford the marriage won't recover. You may stay together - but it won't recover - it will just limp along with no trust and you will feel like you settled for someone who is broken and will cheat again.
Bellechica Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 Trader, are you letting her read this thread? I hope so. I see that you are very patient, but at what cost? Is she okay with you dating other women while she is "on the fence"? She actually might be okay with it, and if so, it may indicate to you that your M is over. At one point when I was with the OM he had me convinced my H was having an A. I didn't really care at the time. I almost hoped he was. In hindsight, I know it was just a means for the OM and me to justify our behavior. At that point, I was thinking maybe my M is over. My OM wanted me to feel that way. I hope your W gets out of her fog and sees that she could really lose you. You have to make sure she knows that you don't condone her choices and that you have options. 1
JustJoe Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) Well, I try to always be civil. If I didn't "tell it like it is", to Bellechica, I would be doing her a dis-service. How can I expect honesty from her , If I don't give her my honest opinion? Moderator note: Honest opinions which conform to community guidelines are welcomed. Edited May 9, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Bellechica Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 Thank you Joe, your sincerity is much appreciated. Perhaps you would like to offer Trader some advice from the perspective of an OM as you had an A with someone's wife. This is his thread. Trader, have you spoken with any of the OM?
The Blue Knight Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 Patience Kindness Understanding Loose boundary Did you look at how that worked out for Ninjas Husband? His wife walked all over him while he did things like you - and she never did finish it with her OM... And now Ninja and his wife aren't together. He was TOO UNDERSTANDING of her BS! And he thought I was being gloomy too - but I was just trying to nudge him to get a solid boundary - one that wouldn't allow her to treat him terribly. But he just wouldn't make demands and wouldn't respect himself to tell her to DO the work to invoke CHANGE in herself. Sunny, in fairness, we can't assume that those are the only reasons it didn't work out for Ninjashusband. He could have taken the hardline approach and ended up with the exact same result. If a spouse is checked out from the marriage (as his wife struck me early in his postings) nothing the BS does is going to bring them back necessarily. I don't disagree with you that the "tough love" approach isn't right at times because it certainly is. But each spouse has to deal with it in a way that makes sense to them. For the record, I used the hardline approach on my own ex-wife when she cheated, and it was fairly effective and she got booted out the door with her suitcases courtesy of me. The marriage still ended a couple of years later because she was just too emotionally damaged and depressed by that point, but I think my point is we have to be open to different approaches to this problem. I'd be willing to bet that Ninjashusband feels like he did all that he could do to keep he and his wife together and he likely needed to believe that "his approach" was very necessary in order to feel like there could be closure if his marriage ended.
Author trader Posted May 9, 2012 Author Posted May 9, 2012 Thank you Joe, your sincerity is much appreciated. Perhaps you would like to offer Trader some advice from the perspective of an OM as you had an A with someone's wife. This is his thread. Trader, have you spoken with any of the OM? No, but in a typical BS fashion, I have determined how I could get in touch with the last two.
The Blue Knight Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) Wouldn't it be nice if YOUR husband had the same choice? Instead of going through life in a sham marriage? And how many marriages had someone cheat Joe where it never came to light? Far more than any of us can ever count. And many of those marriages are still going today, but will likely always be unrevealed. Statistically, I'm sure it's in the millions. Belle never wanted to go on discussing the details of her situation after her OP because she was chewed up and spit out by so many on this forum. People will simply shut down when they feel like they are being stoned by venomous individuals. Encouragement is a far cry from condemnation but far too many people here don't seem to comprehend that. She admitted she screwed up and she admitted that she wanted to get her marriage back. She didn't have to come to loveshack or post her situation. She's trying to work through her situation at home and I credit her for doing so. And perhaps this forum and Belle's participation is a catharsis of sorts that allows her to purge some of her own problems by being an active participant. Edited May 9, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Edited quote 4
William Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 After doing some cleanup, I was surprised the thread starter was a member named 'trader' and the thread was about something totally different than my cleanup. Rather than cleaning further, I'll insert this reminder to stay focused on the thread starter's issue. I seem to be doing this a lot in this forum. That's not a good thing.
JustJoe Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 Well, I try to always be civil. If I didn't "tell it like it is", to Bellechica, I would be doing her a dis-service. How can I expect honesty from her , If I don't give her my honest opinion? Moderator note: Honest opinions which conform to community guidelines are welcomed. My honest opinion, is my honest opinion, whether it conforms or not. I think that what I need to work on, is the manner in which I express it. I apologize to Bellechica for my clumsy expression, but not for my opinion. 2
JustJoe Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 Trader, IDK how much I can help, except to state that IMO, don't be too ready to forgive. She must earn your forgiveness by actions and behavior. I believe that the 4 cornerstones of reconciliation are honesty, communication, remorse, and forgiveness, and they must proceed in order; 1. remorse. the WS must be totally sorry for violating the marriage 2. The WS AND the BS must deal with each other with integrity. 3. Communication. Both partners must be open and free to express their feelings to each other, and opinions about their issues. 4. Forgiveness. After the other three have been put into effect, the BS should be willing, THEN, to try to forgive. After an affair in my family, I began to look into some sites that are useful to people in your situation. The MARRIAGE BUILDERS site seems to be the best. Dr. Harley, the creator of the site, has an impressive record of helping people, whose marriages have suffered from infidelity. You might want to look into it , yourself. The site is very comprehensive.
Bellechica Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 Trader, you might also check out Marriage Counseling – Free Marriage Help from Marriage Fitness with Mort Fertel It's a site where you can sign up for daily emails on ways to rebuild your marriage. Both partners don't have to participate. I've found it helpful for doing my own soul searching to see what behaviors I can change within myself to benefit our marriage. Your W might be interested in reading the correspondence as well. You can ask if she is open to at least doing some self discovery and research on her own which would be less intimidating than IC.
Author trader Posted May 9, 2012 Author Posted May 9, 2012 Trader, IDK how much I can help, except to state that IMO, don't be too ready to forgive. She must earn your forgiveness by actions and behavior. I believe that the 4 cornerstones of reconciliation are honesty, communication, remorse, and forgiveness, and they must proceed in order; 1. remorse. the WS must be totally sorry for violating the marriage 2. The WS AND the BS must deal with each other with integrity. 3. Communication. Both partners must be open and free to express their feelings to each other, and opinions about their issues. 4. Forgiveness. After the other three have been put into effect, the BS should be willing, THEN, to try to forgive. After an affair in my family, I began to look into some sites that are useful to people in your situation. The MARRIAGE BUILDERS site seems to be the best. Dr. Harley, the creator of the site, has an impressive record of helping people, whose marriages have suffered from infidelity. You might want to look into it , yourself. The site is very comprehensive. Just joe. These are good bullets to remember. What is forgiveness anyway? To me there are different degrees along a continueum. I forgive enough right now to process the rest and allow positive feelings. The other end of the extreeme is what we move towards. Right now, I seem to have communication and integrity, if you can believe that. She is being very honest, as far I know. And for a long while I will be exercising "doveryai, no proveryai", trust but verify. I wish I could say I have the remorse I desire. I do not. That is something we are working towards. Like I have tried to say in this thread, one week ago, I was in a far different place than I am now. The situation is improving. I am not yet where I want or need to be. That is what I mean by patience. I am taking this one day at a time. I can be a very intense person. I have to channel that intensity with care.
The Blue Knight Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 Just joe. That is what I mean by patience. I am taking this one day at a time. I can be a very intense person. I have to channel that intensity with care. That's a good call Trader. An intense personality can be the worst thing for your situation. It's good that you recognize that. It doesn't mean you can't have set expectations or boundaries because you can. Patience is necessary to get through these ugly ordeals. 1
2sunny Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 Sunny, in fairness, we can't assume that those are the only reasons it didn't work out for Ninjashusband. He could have taken the hardline approach and ended up with the exact same result. If a spouse is checked out from the marriage (as his wife struck me early in his postings) nothing the BS does is going to bring them back necessarily. I don't disagree with you that the "tough love" approach isn't right at times because it certainly is. But each spouse has to deal with it in a way that makes sense to them. For the record, I used the hardline approach on my own ex-wife when she cheated, and it was fairly effective and she got booted out the door with her suitcases courtesy of me. The marriage still ended a couple of years later because she was just too emotionally damaged and depressed by that point, but I think my point is we have to be open to different approaches to this problem. I'd be willing to bet that Ninjashusband feels like he did all that he could do to keep he and his wife together and he likely needed to believe that "his approach" was very necessary in order to feel like there could be closure if his marriage ended. You may be right - but the fact was showing that NH was way more concerned with the state of his M than his wife. And she wasn't making effort to do what was necessary to grow the M to a healthier place. And NH not having boundaries set down and following consequences only allowed his W to get a clear idea that she could do anything she wanted and he wouldn't leave her. In the end - she delivered a backhanded slap to NH. She was the ultimate liar to the end - sex with NH while she signed a lease to move all without even telling him of her new plans. No honesty and no action to change herself... That lead the M to a place where SHE had ALL the power. That's why it always looked out of balance.
2sunny Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 Trader - did your wife make the counseling appt TODAY? Did she send the letter to her OM ending things for good? There are things SHE CAN DO each and every day that tell you she is doing things to invest in the M instead of doing nothing to move forward.
Bellechica Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 Trader, what kinds of things are you and your wife discussing each day? Are you going about as if everything will be fine? How often are you communicating with her?
SomedayDig Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 Let's try a little different approach instead of battering Trader with questions. How about this: Hey, Trader. How ya doing tonight, man?
2sunny Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 Let's try a little different approach instead of battering Trader with questions. How about this: Hey, Trader. How ya doing tonight, man? Ya - this works real well when you put your head in the sand and pretend like nothing's wrong. Don't have ANY expectations or ANY requirements for the M to get any better than it is now... :rolleyes: Sheez, the guy might need some direction. And if you don't want any ideas or direction - the let us know.
Bellechica Posted May 9, 2012 Posted May 9, 2012 Trader, i don't think you have your head in the sand. You seem like you know yourself very well especially your temperament. I think you've shown incredible strength. Please don't feel pressured to respond to all the questions. It seems to me that you process the posts and apply if relevant to your own situation. Hang in there!
Author trader Posted May 10, 2012 Author Posted May 10, 2012 Ya - this works real well when you put your head in the sand and pretend like nothing's wrong. Don't have ANY expectations or ANY requirements for the M to get any better than it is now... :rolleyes: Sheez, the guy might need some direction. And if you don't want any ideas or direction - the let us know. 2sunny, Go ahead and badger. I appreciate some of the readers who seem to get what I am talking about. I will keep listening to all suggestions, until I am either divorced or my situation has changed enormously. My head is not in the sand, although somedays its up my AZZ! All the browbeating is taken in stride. If you haven't guessed by now, my skin ain't so thin.
Author trader Posted May 10, 2012 Author Posted May 10, 2012 Trader, i don't think you have your head in the sand. You seem like you know yourself very well especially your temperament. I think you've shown incredible strength. Please don't feel pressured to respond to all the questions. It seems to me that you process the posts and apply if relevant to your own situation. Hang in there! There's a word of encouragement. Thank you!
2sunny Posted May 10, 2012 Posted May 10, 2012 2sunny, Go ahead and badger. I appreciate some of the readers who seem to get what I am talking about. I will keep listening to all suggestions, until I am either divorced or my situation has changed enormously. My head is not in the sand, although somedays its up my AZZ! All the browbeating is taken in stride. If you haven't guessed by now, my skin ain't so thin. It wasn't directed at you - I think you're doing pretty good considering the circumstances! It was directed at Someday's non helpful post... Full of nothingness.
Author trader Posted May 10, 2012 Author Posted May 10, 2012 That's a good call Trader. An intense personality can be the worst thing for your situation. It's good that you recognize that. It doesn't mean you can't have set expectations or boundaries because you can. Patience is necessary to get through these ugly ordeals. Thanks Blue Knight. This is not easy. I can only do my best.
Author trader Posted May 10, 2012 Author Posted May 10, 2012 Trader, what kinds of things are you and your wife discussing each day? Are you going about as if everything will be fine? How often are you communicating with her? Because I am intense and WW can easily go into depression, I try not to talk about our problems every opportunity. If I did I would crush her. After a bout, I'll spend the next opportunity doing small talk, talking about the future, chit chat, and affection. She works a long shift nightly at the hospital, usually M-F. Although, sometimes she splits over the weekend, like last weekend, when she was off Friday (our first time together in months) and Sunday I met her best girlfriend who knows everything that has happened. When she works, we do not get much time to talk. Although we talked Monday (good day left her alone), Tuesday (set expectations, but pushed too hard), and today I made it positive, but threw in some boundaries (even used the word). I made sure when I left she was feeling good. Thats it. I don't intend pestering her until Saturday, when she says she will call. The current OM works days about a hour from town. There has been no chance for the two of them in 10 days. I think she has avoided him. This weekend will be pivotal for both of us. The rubber hits the road, so to speak.
BetrayedH Posted May 10, 2012 Posted May 10, 2012 Ya - this works real well when you put your head in the sand and pretend like nothing's wrong. Don't have ANY expectations or ANY requirements for the M to get any better than it is now... :rolleyes: Sheez, the guy might need some direction. And if you don't want any ideas or direction - the let us know. As if the tough approach with NH did any good. 1
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