Just been burned...

[trader]

trader,

 

Have you considered counseling on your own to learn how to navigate her illness(es)?

 

I have considered it and will probally do it at some time. I haven't always looked at some of her behaviors as part of the illness. Sometimes I just think she is being an A**H*le.

 

I am starting to put together the threads of this. I really do think her illness played a role. The challenge will be for her to realize that. The depression is a ongoing battle for her. Its insidious trick is to make her believe the people closest to her are the reason. I am not the only victim here, so I don't take it personally. Over the last few years she has removed herself from her other family members. She has a lot of baggage, unfortunately.

[The Blue Knight]

Trader, sorry you're going through this in your M. I think your W needs to be willing to go into counseling and if she wants to repair the M with you then she will need to do what you need to heal.

Have you asked her why she wants to be with you again? Do you feel she is sincere with her love for you? What are her motivations to stay in the M?

 

And as a side note.....you've come here for advice, but ultimately you will need to process everything from your own history and current situation. There can be some extremist views and candid comments made, so be strong and process everything from your life and what you need. Reading some of the things which may be posted might be painful for you and I already know you're suffering.

 

I hope you have a support network or counselor that can also assist you through this time.

Hi Trader, sorry about your situation. What Belle said above and also move around and look at some of the other threads here.

 

A good idea might be to look at Ninjashusbands thread which just got locked up the other day. Not the exact same situation as yours, but you'll see common ideas to explore and overlap and similarities.

[The Blue Knight]

trader,

 

How much do you think the depression/BP is playing into her choices and actions? If that's a large contributing factor, I think that should be the focus of her counseling sessions. There's a good chance the infidelity, separations, etc., are all byproducts of her illness(es).

 

I'm married to an alcoholic who has also been diagnosed as bi-polar. While it's been a lot harder for me to see it as a disease instead of a choice (that's been a learning process for me), I finally started counseling of my own to learn better how to cope with the damage it's done, to learn how the disease works, to learn better how to manage it within my own life, and most importantly to learn how to support him without enabling him. It's been really helpful for me to gain my own tools and to become as educated as possible about the disease itself.

 

Have you considered counseling on your own to learn how to navigate her illness(es)?

Bipolar Disorder is a tough one to overcome and a very difficult one to navigate around in the confines of a relationship. I've dealt with dozens of BDPs patients and had a cousin who had it quite severely. As a result she was very promiscuous and ran around on her husband and had two kids with different men after that marriage finally ended, and then gave those kids her ex-husbands surname, which was a little bit weird. Ironically, she was an RN as well. Her family has for the most part disowned her. I'm not even sure where's she's at anymore.

[soserious1]

She isn't medicated for the bipolar. I think it is a later development. She is medicated with Zoloft for depression. I know she still takes it, but has been able to use less now that she is alone.

 

Financially, I can handle the divorce. I am retired and do not have health insurance, so I wlll lose that. Otherwise, I can take care of myself. The only reason I want to repair this, is that I love her.

 

The two guys she dated. The one was obviously too dumb. The other guy... not sure why he wasn't good enough. Her main difficulty in leaving me is she knows I am hard to replace. Right now she is stuck in the middle. I have no idea what will happen over the next couple of weeks.

 

No! you don't end up sitting there without health insurance after 22 years of being a faithful husband!

 

You serve this miserable slut with divorce papers, you ask the judge to remove her from the marital home, you request spousal support & for her to continue carrying you on her health plan.

[soserious1]

You give good advice. She had one doctor diagnose her for it years ago. They tried lithium and it didn't work well. That was a rough time. Then they put her back on Zoloft, and she did well up until my daughter brought the roof down. Repeated episodes with my daughter really exasperated her condition. She is a highly functional RN now. While the BP damages her closest relationships, it hasn't affected her work.

 

I tend to think most mental illness is related. In other words, I think they are the same condition, but have varying degrees of intensity and disfunction. I have known schizophrenics, BP, and more common depression.

 

If she is Bipolar Zoloft might well be triggering manic episodes. Yes, Bipolar folks do get depressed but the more usual therapeutic course is to use the mood stabilizers to treat.

[The Blue Knight]

If she is Bipolar Zoloft might well be triggering manic episodes. Yes, Bipolar folks do get depressed but the more usual therapeutic course is to use the mood stabilizers to treat.

I tend to agree with Serious.

 

I'm no medical expert and I can only comment based on some personal observations and a few distant family members who use these meds. I don't care for Zoloft, Paxil, Prozac, or any of them frankly. We've become a pill-popping / quick fix society and all you have to do is look at the ludicrous numbers in the U.S. alone of those being prescribed anti-depressants and anti-anxiety meds. It's insane. Aside from that the suicide rate among people on ADs is through the roof.

[trader]

The wife is mildly bi-polar. If you look at all my posts I point that out. When is treatment with drugs the best route for someone like that? I dunno. To recap slightly. She was once diagnosed and they used lithium, I think. It didn't work for her. They went back to the Zoloft. She was up to the maximum dose for years. But she has been tapering off. I think hasn't had any for the last week.

 

So you have quite a dilemma. On one hand the Zoloft could increase bi-polar behaviour. On the other you want her to be mentally healthy. What's best? I dunno.

 

She hasn't been diagnosed recently as bi-polar, but some things she did over the years, make me think she is. She can be quite obsessive at times. Anything she ever does is often overboard. Irrationallity and yet rational. Sometimes I wonder if this is a mental condition or is it just because she is woman!

 

Anyway I did meet her today. We covered a lot of issues. I will expand tommorrow if I have time.

[trader]

I stayed up late on this forum and woke at 5:30. No going back to sleep. She was supposed to call me. 11:30 went by and I started thinking she is with OM. I drive to her place. Perhaps I can verify the fact. I call from outside watching to see if OM leaves. No answer. After many calls with no answer I go to door and start knocking. She comes to door in night shirt, holds the door open 5", WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE? YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE HERE!" I push open the door, she bolts to the bedroom, shuts the door and continues yelling this. I finally say, "Is there a man in there?" "NO!" She is pretty pissed. But there was no man. She had risen earlier, but dreaded me coming over and went back to bed. This is one way she is different from me. When I am vexed with domestic stress, I don't sleep well or long. For her its a narcotic. It knocks her out. This opening salvo wasn't how I planned our day to start out, but at least I made my point and I think its pretty natural for me to act as I did.

 

20 minutes later she is out of her shower. We start some really tense conversation. While the second fling was faltering, she met another guy through the dating service who had seen her twice. No sex yet with this one as she planned take it slow until they really got to know each other. The other situations got complicated real quick. She figures after the first A, we are done, but she doesn't want to be alone. So date, but be sensible. This guy sounded like a good apple. Widowed, took care of his dying wife last two years, retired army, works civil service at the fort about 60 miles from town, drove twice all the way to meet her, brought flowers and strawberries, yada, yada, yada. Interestly, I also brought flowers and strawberries. Then comes the blaming me, blah, blah, blah! I tell her some of my gripes and my perspective of her gripes, give a few concessions and end with, "we can talk about this during the day, in bits and pieces. However, if we do not want WWIII, we better focus mostly on having some fun." Small talk starts and we start our day. A lot later than we wanted but we got the worst out of the way.

 

She always likes to hang out near water. In the desert, there aren't many choices nearby, but we have a mountain close by that still has some trickles this time of year. Getting there we basically mix positive and benign talk with talk about specifics. We are both feeling better and find water at the first location. Its a good place to hang out and we expand the conversation. Its all give and take. We hadn't thought about it on the way, but once we got there we realized this is where we used to come a lot when we were first married. We would hit the town and on the way home, take a detour and end up here. We'd scramble down the ravine in the dark, blanket in hand and get crazy under the moonlight. Thats some pretty powerful mojo, so it drove home what we were both in danger of losing.

 

We continue up the mountain. Its a great place. Takes you from the arid desert to pines, vistas, and a new restuarant on top. After at lot of time walking, talking and a meal, I take her back to her place. We had a good day.

 

This apartment complex really sucks. They do not have sufficient parking. Each tenant gets one space. From 8pm to 8am, visitors must park outside the complex. She wants me to watch a movie with her and I had offered earlier in the week to wash and wax her car. So I park in her reserved spot and we trade keys. After the movie, as I am leaving I see my truck has been towed! I told her if it gets towed, she pays, since it was her idea for me to park there. So thats how I spent today, getting my truck back and we spent more time together. She will have to wait to get her car cleaned.

 

I know this is not over. There is a lot of ground to cover yet to come. I really appreciate every responce I have received. Some suggest a moderate approach that addresses her illness, some felt I should cut off all contact, and some felt it is over and suggest to move on. I decided to go with my instinct and borrow a little from all suggestions. I can share some responcibility and offer some ways I could change what happened inside the marriage. But what happened outside the marriage is entirely something she is responcible for. I did not cheat. She did.

 

Sorry I made this long. I will try to be shorter in the future.

[SomedayDig]

A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.

 

Make your posts as long as you want. The ones who truly want to help will read them.

 

 

(oh, and I'm a fan of the Iron chili ...I learned how to fly in Tucson back in '01)

[trader]

A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.)

 

Thanks. That is more inspiring to me than you might imagine.

[Bellechica]

Trader, don't worry about long posts. It's good to get your thoughts out.

 

You did say in your post if you discussed with your W about her need for IC. Did you tell her clearly how you feel and how she has hurt you? What is SHE doing to make your M work? Does she want to be with you? If so, did she tell you why? Is she addressing her mental health issues?

[trader]

You did say in your post if you discussed with your W about her need for IC.

 

We are discussing the need for IC. We agree to do something, we just haven't decided what. The two of us did a lot of traditional counseling in the far past and never found it particuarly helpful. (One guy was working on her depression one on one, and then when I was brought into the discussion, I sensed he was making a play on her and he encouraged her to move out on me.) Getting the right therapist is really critical and rare from my experiance. We haven't ruled that method out, but are open to any suggestions that might be off the beaten path. We would particuarly be open to any intense boot camp type of experiance we could do together over a long weekend or more. We would like this in alot of different venues. It would make the chore of IC more of an adventure and mix up the strategies so we are getting hit from all angles. I am also sure the real root cause to all this is a lack of communication skills. I think I am better at this than her, but that doesn't mean I always do it well, in fact, sometimes I turn it off altogether. She on the other hand is completely unaware how disfunctional she can be in this way. It has hurt many of her family relationships other than just me. Up until the A, I didn't take her poor skills personally. I do now.

 

Did you tell her clearly how you feel and how she has hurt you? What is SHE doing to make your M work?

 

She knows how much I hurt.

She is doing her part, but she is a long way off from knowing what to do. We are at a point we can improve our marraige to a fair degree at least for the short term. The real long term gains I expect we both will need some kind of therapy.

 

Does she want to be with you? If so, did she tell you why? Is she addressing her mental health issues?

 

She does want to be with me. She hasn't really said why, yet. I know why, but it will take her a while to say it. I am not pressuring her to do-it-all at one time. In fact, I think this has more impact if we sprend out the pain and the pleasure over time. Some conversations have to be had, then processed alone in the subconcious before they really hit home and there is a limit to how much emotion anybody can process at one time.

[Bellechica]

Did she say if she wants to move back in with you? Has she cut all contact with the OM?

How are you finding strength to get through this?

[2sunny]

You don't stand a chance as long as she's seeing or communicating with any new guy.

 

Since she's continuing to find new men instead of making sure ALL her energy goes into reconnecting with you - there's not even a starting point for a reconciliation to deem possible.

 

The fact that she'd rather sleep ( her way of "escaping her reality) that tell us reading that she'd rather avoid you and sleep - than go out or call you.

 

It's not looking promising - and I'm sorry I even have to type that... But you need to let go of your denial and look at your evidence that real by the way SHE'S not participating.

[trader]

Did she say if she wants to move back in with you? Has she cut all contact with the OM?

How are you finding strength to get through this?

 

Yes, she is making plans to move back in. Her lease runs through September. This gives me time to do some of the remodeling I intended to do, anyway. And it gives us time to take this a bit slower.

 

She has. She broke up with the first, young, OM, sometime ago. The second older OM, she broke up with last Saturday when I called. The third guy she only met twice. By this time, she had decided not to be imtimate until she knew him better, but then I came on the scene. That put a squash to that. I don't know whether he has tried to talk to her. I'll ask tommorow. Anyway, she has had no chance to see him, she has been with me almost every chance on her request.

 

How do I remain strong? Good question. I don't know. I guess I just figure I have to be. Also, being able to talk about it here really helps. Every responce the forum members have provided has also really helped.

[Bellechica]

Did your WW tell you what actions SHE plans to take to recover the marriage?

Is she willing to admit she has boundary issues with men? What action is she taking NOW to make certain that you are the ONLY man she turns to?

Does she seem remorseful?

 

I don't understand why there is now a third man involved with her. Did she meet this man AFTER she told you she wants to be with you and work on recovery?

[trader]

Did your WW tell you what actions SHE plans to take to recover the marriage?

 

Is she willing to admit she has boundary issues with men? What action is she taking NOW to make certain that you are the ONLY man she turns to?

 

Does she seem remorseful?

 

 

I don't understand why there is now a third man involved with her. Did she meet this man AFTER she told you she wants to be with you and work on recovery?

 

Last question first. She met the third guy BEFORE we started talking. The second was not going to work out. There wasn't much involvement with the third. He had potential, but they had only met twice. Plus my wife works nights at the hospital, the guy lives in the next town, and by this time the wife realized that starting a relationship with sex, was not going to meet all her needs so she had decided to take it slow and get the know the guy first.

 

After the sex with the first, she knew she had stepped over a boundary. This is where understanding how my wife's mind works is a lot easier for me, than probally any BS on this forum. Once that boundary had been crossed, the idea of getting back with me proves adultery. If, however, once that boundary was crossed, the divorce is inevitable, conclusive, and final, then its not adultery in her mind, its a failed marriage. (See how I end up being the bad guy here?) The divorce is just paperwork. The marriage failure, in her female twisted logic, is considered prior to the adultery. I know this is weird. But this is the way it is. I don't think this is unique to her. This is exactly how my first marriage ended. This wife is my second.

 

Neverless, the wife felt a sense of loss. We had a good marriage before my daughter dumped a ton of drama on it. The wife was trying to replace what was missing in ours with the others. Seemingly out of nowhere, I finally call her. I didn't know any adultery had take place, but I suspected it. I didn't know the extent or the current involvement with the two guys she seeing at the time. Her sister knew a little and told me I better talk to her NOW. I wasn't going to, but late at night a week ago Saturday, I called. The timing was perfect. She had decided to break off with OM #2. The tone on my end of call was warm and positive. That shattered the fog.

 

Does she seem remorseful? When I answer this, I will probally be considered a real chump. My wife almost never shows remorse. Showing remorse is almost non-existent to her. It is a major personality characteristic. I asked her sister this week if the wife has every said she was sorry in Sis's entire life. NO. She hasn't.

 

That doesn't means she isn't sorryl, however. She just shows it differently. It may sound weird to say, but the wife is actually very honest. To confess having two affairs is easy. To tell me the exact state of the relationships, she can do almost like a clinician. To say she is sorry, is almost impossible. But she does show remorse. How? Her actions is how. She calls. She makes time. She gives. She buys meals. She hugs and kisses.

 

All of this discussion we are having here on the forum has been helping us communicate. I have told the spouse I am doing this. I also tell her what you say and ask. And I tell her what my responces are. I wouldn't even care if she found this thread and read it.

[Bellechica]

Does she realize how lucky she is that you are actual willing to give her another chance?

Why doesn't she want to move in with you right now? Why wait until her lease is up?

 

Do you think she will stay faithful now? It doesn't make you feel like she is just stringing you along until she finds someone better?

 

I know I ask lots of questions, but Trader, I just can't understand how you are able to handle this situation. She can't place blame on you or your daughter. I understand that in her mind thought you were getting a D, but why didn't she talked to you about her thinking you were divorcing? No papers were served, no lawyers seen, correct?

[trader]

You don't stand a chance as long as she's seeing or communicating with any new guy.

She hasn't had the time to see anyone. I have been with her during any time off she 's had. I know the guy has left messages on her phone she hasn't returned. Today she says she will probally email. Chicken!

Since she's continuing to find new men instead of making sure ALL her energy goes into reconnecting with you - there's not even a starting point for a reconciliation to deem possible.

I probally wasn't clear or it was lost in the length of this discussion. The last guy, the retired army fella, was started before we resumed communication and before my personal d-day. Again it didn't have a chance to get off the ground, since I am back in the picture.

The fact that she'd rather sleep ( her way of "escaping her reality) that tell us reading that she'd rather avoid you and sleep - than go out or call you.

 

It is her way of escaping. I wish I could do the same. I never knew this about her when we married 22 years ago. When I first witnessed it, it infuriated me. It goes against my core beliefs "never to let the sun go down on your wrath." I am also not wired that way. I want to discuss and fix things right now. But I have learned to accept it. Like I said before, it is a narcoleptic responce. It is like she is hypnotised to respond to domestic discord with sleep. Its weird, but thats her. It is not a choice on her part. For her to feel great anxiety prior to a reunion with me after months of separation and now confessed affairs makes a lot of sense to me.

 

It's not looking promising - and I'm sorry I even have to type that... But you need to let go of your denial and look at your evidence that real by the way SHE'S not participating.

 

2sunny, I'm going to have to call you 2gloomy! Its ok, though. I appreciate your perspective. You do not have to be sorry to say your opinion. I would rather have it than be without it.

Realize that tommorrow is only one week since d-day. So much happened in that time that it feels much longer.

 

Some of what I heard on this forum seems dogmatic and ritualistic. As if there is only one formula for a joint future for any couple who has experienced the pain of infidelity.

 

Many suggestions, yours included, have reccommended treating my wife like a leper. Like now that she cheated, she is tainted flesh and soul. The only way she can be pure again is to be refined in the crucible of punishment. I really think creating such a negative platform to build a future together is not productive. I am sure going forward requires two people to do the best actions that will make their future possible.

My part in this is to forgive. Period. If I do not forgive, the certain failure of our future will be my fault. Love can never operate in a cloud of resentment.

 

Perhaps that is why Bellechica so fears revealing her dark secret to her H. I don't blame her. I suppose for it to be the right thing to do has to be her judgement. How would her husband react? If her husband reacts the way the majority of posters reccomend to me, it will not only destroy their marriage, it also will cause harm to the children. If Bellechica confesses, she will have a load off her mind. But her family will have a new burden they don't have to live with now. Confession, as I see it, can be a very selfish thing to do.

Edited May 7, 2012 by trader

[trader]

Does she realize how lucky she is that you are actual willing to give her another chance?

Oh yeah.

 

Why doesn't she want to move in with you right now? Why wait until her lease is up?

 

It gives me space. Its a joint decision. I think she would move in now if I wanted.

 

Do you think she will stay faithful now? It doesn't make you feel like she is just stringing you along until she finds someone better?

 

I believe this has opened both of her eyes. She has taken responcbility for some of what happened to our love life. These are issues I tried to change, but she didn't realize the long term consequences.

I don't believe she is stringing me along.

 

 

I know I ask lots of questions, but Trader, I just can't understand how you are able to handle this situation. She can't place blame on you or your daughter. I understand that in her mind thought you were getting a D, but why didn't she talked to you about her thinking you were divorcing? No papers were served, no lawyers seen, correct?

 

We have been talking about the daughter thing. For 10 months she blamed me and I blamed her. Everytime it ended up in furthering us apart. I told her today we were like two dogs chasing each other's tail with neither of us giving up. Finally, we had to decide to agree to disagree. There are differences of opinions that occur in relations that cannot be resolved. The choice is what to do with them. The daughter\move out issue is one to put in a nuclear waste site and never dig it up.

 

Let me explain the divorce concept. She did not want to divorce me because there goes my health plan. I have covered for her so many times in the past, and despite it all, she still cared. I wouldn't file for the same reasons.

 

My point is the divorce paper is just a piece of paper. Romantically, most people feel divorced long before it is finalized. This is true with many women and men. When a person thinks the marriage is over, they often seek another relationship long before the paperwork is completed. I had made a decision not to do that. She obviously did not.

[SomedayDig]

Some of what I heard on this forum seems dogmatic and ritualistic. As if there is only one formula for a joint future for any couple who has experienced the pain of infidelity.

 

And that is why you need to sift through all the gunk and figure out what is best for you. There were a lot of posters telling me I needed to leave my wife immediately because she had a 5 year affair. That's all they read and without knowing the true dynamics of our 13 year relationship, they said "Get the F outta there". I read and listened but chose to do what others suggested while trying to repair my SELF. The marriage will be fixed by proxy, IMO.

 

Many suggestions, yours included, have reccommended treating my wife like a leper. Like now that she cheated, she is tainted flesh and soul.

 

See my comment above. If you love her truly, then you need to decide. I have thought of my wife sharing what was OURS with someone outside the marriage. I would be lying though, if I said I didn't sometimes think about "tainted flesh".

 

Perhaps that is why Bellechica so fears revealing her dark secret to her H. I don't blame her. I suppose for it to be the right thing to do has to be her judgement. How would her husband react? If her husband reacts the way the majority of posters reccomend to me, it will not only destroy their marriage, it also will cause harm to the children. If Bellechica confesses, she will have a load off her mind. But her family will have a new burden they don't have to live with now. Confession, as I see it, can be a very selfish thing to do.

 

But the confession is necessary to allow the BS the absolute truth about who they are in the marriage with. At this stage, using Belle's example as you have, her husband doesn't have the full story, therefore does not TRULY know his wife. So, is confession selfish? Personally, I don't think so. In the mind of someone with selfish motivation...yes.

[Bellechica]

Trader, you do seem to do a good job shifting through the posts and I think I am getting an understanding somewhat of your wife. Yes, although there are similarities in certain As, and there maybe similaritie in people who cheat, there are also many differences among it all.

As for my confessing, I am secure in myself enough to know that there is much more at stake than saving my own a**. No, I'm not playing the martyr card, just trying to do the less harm to the most people revealing would affect.

I'm thinking more clearly and trying to use logic versus emotion. I can't undo what I did, but I can sure as he*l make sure I never repeat the behavior.

And Trader, you seem to be very strong as you are processing all that has happened. Is this how you've managed past crises of such magnitude?

I thought most men wanted to confront the OM?

[trader]

 

And Trader, you seem to be very strong as you are processing all that has happened. Is this how you've managed past crises of such magnitude?

 

I thought most men wanted to confront the OM?

 

I wish! lol. I keep learning as I go. Sometimes I do better than others. Really with her it often depends on how ready she is to talk. At this point she is really ready and that makes it easier. Confronting the OM is isn't neccessary in this case . It would depend on the situation. When the first marriage hit the rocks, I did. I was a lot younger, but I still think it was needed that time.

[2sunny]

You can see me however you wish.

 

The fact remains - she's a cheater and hasn't done the work she needs to do - yet you are seeing her before she's even started counseling.

 

Staying away would (might) motivate her to get counseling today.

 

The longer she waits - the less urgency she feels to do it - especially since YOU keep communicating with her while she's hasn't taken any responsibility and actions about her bad behavior.

 

Go read Ninjas Husbands thread... It may help you...

[trader]

Staying away would (might) motivate her to get counseling today.

Go read Ninjas Husbands thread... It may help you...

 

I think thats the point. Staying away might or might not motivate her to get counseling. I have to be the judge of this. I believe staying away will reinforce the negative aspect that led to this and not allow any opportunity for positive. I believe it would be fatal to the marriage if I did not spend time right now. There is a saying I believe. You must strike the iron when it is hot. I think its hot now. I met a pastor at my friends shop. Before long the conversation turned to my situation. The pastor said this,"Before couples get married we spend all our effort trying to keep them from moving in together, after they marry we try to keep them in the same house." A house divided cannot stand. I think the separation compounded our problems.

 

Also, if you remember one of my earlier posts. We had been in IC and MC years before. We probally went to 6 or 7 different therapists over the years. Generally, the quality went from mediocre to outright criminal. One was putting a play on my wife. I just do not trust these quacks anymore.

 

We have talked about this over the last week and I think I have a better idea that we both have more confidence in. We are looking into a program in the next large town that has you in workshops for a few days. This program is reasonable and will help us in the short term. There are other programs which require more travel we could add when we are able.

 

The weird thing is that she knows why she did what she did. She knows it hurt me. I know why she did what she did. I take a small part in the blame. Very small. The goal of every MC is to get couples to communicate. At the moment, we are doing that. If we cut that off the relationship dies.