Issue with Public Behavior

[blue_ikat]

My boyfriend and I are in our mid-20s, employed, generally happy and well-adjusted people. We've been together for a little over a year, and living together for about 6 months. Everything is great at home, and he is almost always loving, supportive, and helpful towards me.

 

I'm worried about his behavior in public. He does rude, sometimes destructive things for no reason- knocking things over, littering, putting his shoes on the seat of a public transit car, climbing into places he's not allowed to be, taking things he assumes are 'free' without asking, cutting lines, making unkind comments about people on the street ("Wow, look at the fat gut on that guy" etc) but assuming they won't hear. Once, he drew a racist symbol in a restaurant. When I've told him that these actions make me very uncomfortable, he says that he's just having fun and I'm "trying to control" him.

 

I've told him that from my perspective, he's making more work for the people who clean up public spaces and I feel nervous being in public with him because I don't know how far he'll go with these actions. He says "Fine, don't trust me then" and says being worried about bad outcomes is "no way to live". I've said I just want him to not to these things when we're together- what he does with his friends isn't for me to worry about. Admittedly, I'm a law-and-order, let's-follow-the-rules person. We're on kindof an uneasy compromise of agreeing to be flexible with each other's way of doing things.

 

I hate to lose a guy who treats me very well... but I really, really dislike this behavior. I am afraid the bad behavior will escalate as he gets older, and that if we had a child, he'd encourage this stuff. Is he just goofing around and I'm reading too much into it? Am I being controlling?

[Radu]

He treats you very well NOW, but with most relationships not making it to marriage and of those that make it to marriage about 70% eventually splitting up ... what do you think the odds are that you will become the focus of his ... activities ?

[persevere]

He's acting like an angry 14 year old. Harsh, but he will likely eventually channel his behavior on you.

[dasein]

What you are describing is not "well-adjusted" behavior, some of that may be excusable in teens, not in adults.

[mortensorchid]

Yes, he is immature for doing those things. He will continue this behavior no matter what, and someday he will take this immature behavior out on you somehow. I would approach with caution here as well.

[TigerCub]

haha, it sound like a very lame ass way to try & be "the bad boy" - haha, so lame

[blue_ikat]

Thanks, all, for your thoughts (I mean that sincerely- I really need outside perspective on this).

 

I guess what upsets me most about this behavior is that he's not an immature guy in all other respects- he works hard in a professional career, he does his share of household chores without complaint, my whole family (elderly relatives included) praises his politeness. He's never been in any kind of trouble with the law. He does do stuff that annoys me, like putting a cold glass on the back of my neck and tossing our pet around, but I figured it's goofiness I have to tolerate. So I don't understand why he wants to, say, climb onto a museum exhibit or take five water bottles at an event.

 

He is resentful of what I'd consider normal roommate/living partner things, like when I ask him to put on headphones or change the song on the stereo. I feel like I'm an excellent girlfriend (I work, I cook for us, I plan fun things for us) so he should just refrain from doing things that make me uncomfortable in public... which I admit sounds controlling. He says I wouldn't tell my friends not to do this stuff... but my friends wouldn't behave like that in public. I'm not sure how to defuse the resentment or deal with this in the future, which I care about more than being 'right' on what's appropriate in public.

[TigerCub]

Thanks, all, for your thoughts (I mean that sincerely- I really need outside perspective on this).

 

I guess what upsets me most about this behavior is that he's not an immature guy in all other respects- he works hard in a professional career, he does his share of household chores without complaint, my whole family (elderly relatives included) praises his politeness. He's never been in any kind of trouble with the law. He does do stuff that annoys me, like putting a cold glass on the back of my neck and tossing our pet around, but I figured it's goofiness I have to tolerate. So I don't understand why he wants to, say, climb onto a museum exhibit or take five water bottles at an event.

 

He is resentful of what I'd consider normal roommate/living partner things, like when I ask him to put on headphones or change the song on the stereo. I feel like I'm an excellent girlfriend (I work, I cook for us, I plan fun things for us) so he should just refrain from doing things that make me uncomfortable in public... which I admit sounds controlling. He says I wouldn't tell my friends not to do this stuff... but my friends wouldn't behave like that in public. I'm not sure how to defuse the resentment or deal with this in the future, which I care about more than being 'right' on what's appropriate in public.

 

I pretty much couldn't pay attention after that in bold.

He tosses your pet around?

Not only is he immature, but he's also cruel - wow what a catch!

[Radu]

Meh, depends what it means to 'toss the pet around', cats are fun to play with ... but the rest is pretty ****ed up.

 

What's his background ... parents, how was he raised ?

[blue_ikat]

I mean 'tossing' in a horseplay manner, like onto the couch or bed. He'd never, ever intentionally hurt any animal- he feeds, brushes, and cuddles our pet (who sleeps on my boyfriend's feet). I think he plays too rough with kids and animals sometimes, but they never mind and I always loved it when my uncles/cousins would run around with me. I'd definitely do it differently, but he's absolutely not violent.

 

He has lots of younger siblings, so lots of experience caring for young children. Sometimes I feel awkward because he'll smile at a stranger's baby or say hello to a toddler, and the child's mother will glare at me like they think he's a creep. So I know his playfulness can come across the wrong way sometimes.

[TigerCub]

Thanks for explaining that Blue - I'll take bake the "cruel" comment

[blue_ikat]

Radu- He had a very, very unconventional upbringing... not in this country, the closest situation in America would be an orphanage/foster child, but he's got great relationships with his bio-family now. He grew up in a dictatorship. He basically had to escape as a teenager. I'm very proud of him, he's got an incredible strength of character not only to escape but to establish himself as a successful person- he's been one of the top people in his field since his early 20s. Just writing this makes me feel like he is an incredible man, although he doesn't see himself that way.

[Ninjainpajamas]

Sometimes being around certain people triggers a certain part of is that enables us to act out in a rebellious way in order to feel liberated and free, like in this moment or place...this is me and I'm not letting you change it.

 

This is my assessment in this situation because you mentioned he knows how to act out accordingly in the work place and around family, however If he was truly immature then he'd be acting out this way in all facets of his life rather than just being around you or his friends.

 

So is this just his way of acting out against you and the constriction he feels in other facets of his life where he has to put on his "normal" guy face? Or is he just secretly immature and doesn't want to embarrass himself except around others he knows very well and is close to?

 

To make it simple rather than going off on a psychological rant is that you need to remind yourself that

 

A) You're not going to change a man...regardless of how If he changed X qualities he'd just be "perfect"...don't try and make someone perfect, it doesn't work

 

B) Without him willing to compromise there is no room for change, If he doesn't value the way it makes you feel when you're around him then he truly doesn't understand the impact and consequences of these acts...In fact he'd probably be "surprised" that you left him over something so "insignificant"...you need to sit down and have his undivided attention when you're not in this situation and make it known exactly how it makes you feel

 

C) Realize that If he is unwilling to change then you're going to have to accept his behavior...or you're just going to fight over this and both be uncomfortable around each other and unhappy (which many women do for those "good" qualities in the relationship) at that point you're just beating your head against a wall because he's heard your opinion/emotions yet refuses to validate your concerns, feel they are unwarranted or insecure in the fact you are trying to dominate/control him as a person

 

It's no surprise that you're with someone less by the rules than you are, you probably found these things less than negative, maybe exciting or intriguing but now during the relationship you're realizing how childish and immature this is all becoming...It seems like a failed attempt on his part to represent himself as the "bad boy" as someone else mentioned.

 

Now that you're thinking more responsibly you do need to take into the factor the parenting equation as values should be similar when raising children...or you're just going to look the the bad guy making the kids follow the rules while he underhandedly tells them to listen and breaks all the rules being the "cool" dad...when these are things that are going to help your children grow...however I wouldn't assume that this will be the situation, you need to talk to him about it, he may handle children responsibly since he's able to handle himself well in other facets of life...however that leans more on the side of hopeful than realistic, I don't think a man can change his stripes and women tend to unrealistic gauge the real perspective of how their men are truly seen...as family/friends don't necessarily want to be negative or criticize the boyfriend as women typically get defensive and then just outcast those people/comments even If they see the guy as an immature idiot in their honest opinion, or at least recognize the flaws more clearly than you do.

[findingnemo]

Radu- He had a very, very unconventional upbringing... not in this country, the closest situation in America would be an orphanage/foster child, but he's got great relationships with his bio-family now. He grew up in a dictatorship. He basically had to escape as a teenager. I'm very proud of him, he's got an incredible strength of character not only to escape but to establish himself as a successful person- he's been one of the top people in his field since his early 20s. Just writing this makes me feel like he is an incredible man, although he doesn't see himself that way.

 

 

Do you know that children who grow up in bad regimes can exhibit anti-social behaviour? The strength of character comes from learning to survive on his own. He is successful because he was determined to live, to never starve, to never get cold, or feel fear again. Here's the sad thing. He grew up like a weed. No boundaries, no learning the difference between polite and impolite, possibly is even a bit shady when it comes to knowing right from wrong. And the worst thing of all is the very thing that made him a success - he learned to be extremely selfish. He had to in order to survive. That is if what he tells you is the whole truth.

 

So bearing in mind that he is possibly a genius, a determined man with very poor interpersonal skills, do you think you are capable of changing him? If so how? By being nice to him and showing him how to act and react? Maybe he needs counseling. Whatever his issues are, you are probably not able to handle them (read change him) on your own. Can you imagine life with a person with social skills disabilities? What happens when he gets mad at you? I shudder to imagine....

[FitChick]

Was he one of those Romanian orphans who grew up in appalling conditions? Most of those kids were severely and sometimes permanently emotionally damaged. It sounds like he is pushing boundaries and may not quit until he gets arrested. I know a lot of those orphans were treated for post traumatic stress disorder so that might be a way to focus therapy.

[O'Malley]

Taking note of how someone treats individuals that they feel superior to or don't receive any benefits from (strangers, service staff) is just as insightful as how they treat people they feel they do benefit from.

 

At a year in, you're still becoming acquainted with the facets of his character. You'll have rough patches ahead of you, and you're learning

how he handles stress and reacts when things don't go his way. Unless he perceives that his behavior isn't working for him, he'll continue to choose to push boundaries. You've already seen that he shuts down the discussion when you've brought the topic up --not that you should be thinking in terms of 'fixing' him, but that he's not bothered enough by your discomfort that he's open to changing his attitude.

[blue_ikat]

@O'Malley-

 

He is very kind and ingratiating with service staff (he feels my 20% is "undertipping" and often supplements it if I'm buying dinner), children, and the elderly. It does bother me that he sees an extra $10 will be nice for a server, but he doesn't see why it would be rude and obnoxious to scatter trash around a public transit station or climb on historic landmarks. It's like if he can't see the cleaners/artists, he can't see his behavior is ultimately unkind to them.

[blue_ikat]

@Eden-

 

I found your post very helpful. I do agree he hasn't fully dealt with his childhood, and what you're saying is completely true. He doesn't see it that way- he was slightly better off than the absolute worst poverty/abuse suffered by other kids around him. I do wonder if this is a sort of reactionary issue, that he's got a stable, loving partner instead of the abandonment he's dealt with many times. But he is telling me the truth, I had already known another person who escaped from the same situation when I met him. I'm sorry I can't be more specific, but it's similar to the 'Lost Boys' of Colorado or the defectors of North Korea.

 

However, he does have good social skills with plenty of friends, co-workers, especially other escapees. I want to be clear that he is never, ever abusive to me and he knows I'd never stand to be treated cruelly (I have a background in mental health work). He was shocked when I expressed that I feel sometimes he does these things just to spite me- he doesn't have the "I statements" listening skills I'm used to. I've asked him to consider being screened for ADD and he's open to it. He just doesn't see any urgency because he feels like a happy, well-adjusted person.

[blue_ikat]

So is this just his way of acting out against you and the constriction he feels in other facets of his life where he has to put on his "normal" guy face? Or is he just secretly immature and doesn't want to embarrass himself except around others he knows very well and is close to?...

 

C) Realize that If he is unwilling to change then you're going to have to accept his behavior...or you're just going to fight over this and both be uncomfortable around each other and unhappy (which many women do for those "good" qualities in the relationship) at that point you're just beating your head against a wall because he's heard your opinion/emotions yet refuses to validate your concerns, feel they are unwarranted or insecure in the fact you are trying to dominate/control him as a person

 

 

Now that you're thinking more responsibly you do need to take into the factor the parenting equation as values should be similar when raising children...or you're just going to look the the bad guy making the kids follow the rules while he underhandedly tells them to listen and breaks all the rules being the "cool" dad...when these are things that are going to help your children grow...however I wouldn't assume that this will be the situation, you need to talk to him about it, he may handle children responsibly since he's able to handle himself well in other facets of life...however that leans more on the side of hopeful than realistic

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply, Ninja. Trying to go in order:

1) That's basically my conundrum. Everyone needs to blow off steam, but I want him to save it for when I'm not there... and preferably not do things that make others' lives more difficult. He's right that he probably won't be arrested for climbing on art installations in the park, I just don't want to have to watch it/feel pressured to join in or be the "stick in the mud".

 

2) I promise, I'm really not intending to change or control him. That's why I'm extremely reluctant to consider leaving him- no one is 'perfect', and he has so many good qualities that are very important to me. He is accepting of my imperfections for the most part, and usually strives for an equal balance of power in our relationship. My goals in posting here are to a) see if others feel his behavior is inappropriate because he insists it's totally innocuous, b) gain some insight about how I'm reacting, and c) find a way to defuse the resentment/explain my position to him so I can show him that it's his choice to make. I've said "I can't control you even if I want to", but he feels that me even being upset by the behavior is controlling.

 

3) Yeah, this is my big fear. I want to cut him some slack- we wouldn't be having kids for 5-10 years, and people grow. We've resolved issues together before. But I'm not sure if it's realistic or too hopeful to think someone will realize it's silly to litter or cut lines by age 35. I feel like telling bad jokes and loving Hawaiian shirts are 'individuality' aspects of someone's personality, and his behavior is selfishness that he doesn't see as harmful.

[Feelsgoodman]

You have to decide whether the good treatment you get from him is worth tolerating a few relatively harmless eccentricities on his part. Women always say that they want men to "accept them as they are" but when it comes to accepting men, they are constantly trying to change them.

 

Ask yourself this. Are you perfect in every way? Are there things about you that annoy other people? Reading your posts, you seem like a rather uptight person, which can also be seen as annoying character flaw. Why do you care if the guy wants to play fight with the pet or climb a "historical monument"?

[KathyM]

I would agree with Nemo that he has some antisocial tendencies. Probably not enough to be diagnosed with Antisocial Personality Disorder, but does have antisocial tendencies, probably because of his abandonment during childhood. Antisocial people have a pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others. They fail to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors. They have a disregard for the safety of others (in your bf's case, throwing the pet around). They have a lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another. While your bf is probably not severe enough to be diagnosed with APD, he does have some of those tendencies, IMO, in a milder form.

[blue_ikat]

Women always say that they want men to "accept them as they are" but when it comes to accepting men, they are constantly trying to change them.

 

Ask yourself this. Are you perfect in every way? Are there things about you that annoy other people? Reading your posts, you seem like a rather uptight person, which can also be seen as annoying character flaw. Why do you care if the guy wants to play fight with the pet or climb a "historical monument"?

 

 

'Cuse you, but I'm not "women". I'm an individual, specific human being.

 

Like I said, I realize I'd do it differently, but how he plays with the pet is his own style. I can be reserved and even uptight. But I care that he not get arrested for trespassing or cited for littering. I feel it's disrespectful to the work people put in to maintaining a social environment to mock people on the street, litter, or take things without asking- to me, it's the Golden Rule. My boyfriend is wonderful to me, so it worries me that he doesn't see this as hurting other people.

Edited May 1, 2012 by blue_ikat