xxoo Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 Here is an older one JSTOR: Journal of Marriage and Family, Vol. 43, No. 4 (Nov., 1981), pp. 785-788 Here are two more recent. There are loads of them if you just google Kids Curb Marital Satisfaction | LiveScience Here Comes Baby, There Goes the Marriage - WSJ.com Admitting you regret having kids is the last taboo so you needn't feel alone. There are some people who love being parents and are great at it but they are in the minority. Those studies demonstrate that marital satisfaction declines with the birth of the first child for 2/3 of couples. I was aware of those studies. Where are the studies that show this: a consistent two-thirds of parents say given the opportunity to have kids again, knowing what they know now based on experience, they'd never have kids. Two-thirds. . A couple can experience a decrease in marital satisfaction AND love being a parent. FTR, I am academically curious, not personally curious. We fall in the 1/3 of couples who grew closer after becoming parents.
xxoo Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 I remember a few days ago there was lots of drama over someone saying that they should put marriage ahead of children. His argument was that a happy marriage ensured a happy environment for ALL his children, and the chance to grow up as balanced adults. Seems to me that these links validate what he was saying, even though he got hounded for it. It is a complicated issue, but be assured that none of us who disagreed with him disagree that a happy marriage is good for the whole family.
dasein Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 Intelligence is inherited and if intelligent folks decide not to reproduce humanity will become less intelligent. By the same token there are folks that bring to the world babies that are doomed to fail and pollute the gene pool. Arguendo (and there are problems with both statements above, mainly the first one), I don't want to bring children in a world where both these above phenomena, among other things, are occuring. I'm a misanthrope to an extent and view humanity as a plague rather than something worth saving. Our salvation as a species, if it ever comes, will be post-human, and no amount of extra babies will get us to that point faster. In the meantime, while the plague runs its course, minimizing misery in one's environment and living a "good life" are as worthy goals as any. Neither of those goals necessitates children.
Andy_K Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 We live in a rapidly overpopulating world and despite what media propaganda says, children are no longer "our future" in a sense that the survival of the species is endangered if a large segment of people don't reproduce. I agree with this. If anything, the world needs massive and immediate population controls imposed before rapidly dwindling resources vanish entirely in the next generation. So I have absolutely no problem with those who don't want kids, and I think it's an admirable position in many ways. On the other hand, I've already got a daughter from a previous relationship and I'd like to have a family with someone new in the future. Plus, I feel it would be a crime against humanity, were my genes to be under-represented in the next generation
aj22one Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 I agree with this. If anything, the world needs massive and immediate population controls imposed before rapidly dwindling resources vanish entirely in the next generation. So I have absolutely no problem with those who don't want kids, and I think it's an admirable position in many ways. Resources aren't going to vanish, and populations aren't going to rapidly grow out of control. The people in third world countries who are having lots of kids are having lots of kids because it makes sense economically for them to do so. As economic progress occurs, people will have fewer children without coercive methods being forced on them to do so.
mortensorchid Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 That is very sad that this happened to this woman you are talking about. I have also seen it happen a lot to people out there, one party wants to have children and the other does not. I wish it was so cut and dried as to why people do / do not want children, but there are a million reasons. Women in general want to have children, men do not. Sometimes the opposite is true, but it's usually the first way around. When we are younger we tend to think that we do not want to have children, because we are too wrapped up in ourselves to dedicate enough time and energy to it. It is a huge step to take, no question. But, consider why some do and don't. Typically why people do not want them is because they don't want the responsibility or to dedicate the time/energy to it. A child will only tie them down. But, chances are, whether or not you have them, you will be tied to something anyway be it a job or something. I hate to say this, but I think it's men who are doing the terrible stuff these days with that. Men tend to be selfish, and they often times say that they don't want children because children / a child would take away from the attention they get from their woman. If only they would take a step back and realize it's not all about them, but often times in the relationship, it is. I hate to sound bitter on that, but they seem to think this from my experiences.
FitChick Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 We fall in the 1/3 of couples who grew closer after becoming parents. So why do you care that everyone else is miserable? Count your blessings. Some people are meant to be parents and you hear about their large blended families of biological, disabled and adopted kids. It's their calling. Kudos to them. But most people have kids for selfish reasons and everybody suffers. The very first time I heard of parental dissatisfaction (I had believed the motherhood myth myself) was in the famous Ann Landers column in the Seventies. It seems many people refused to believe the shocking results, calling them anecdotal, which in a sense they were. However, in the following years, whenever other more scientific studies came out, with results published in mainstream media, I noted that the results were the same. If you want exact links, I'm sure you can find them yourself if you are really interested. 1
FitChick Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 Women in general want to have children, men do not. Men tend to be selfish, and they often times say that they don't want children because children / a child would take away from the attention they get from their woman. I date divorced men who tell me they felt disposable after the kids were born, only useful for money. Their wives totally neglected them.
xxoo Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 So why do you care that everyone else is miserable? Count your blessings. Some people are meant to be parents and you hear about their large blended families of biological, disabled and adopted kids. It's their calling. Kudos to them. But most people have kids for selfish reasons and everybody suffers. The very first time I heard of parental dissatisfaction (I had believed the motherhood myth myself) was in the famous Ann Landers column in the Seventies. It seems many people refused to believe the shocking results, calling them anecdotal, which in a sense they were. However, in the following years, whenever other more scientific studies came out, with results published in mainstream media, I noted that the results were the same. If you want exact links, I'm sure you can find them yourself if you are really interested. I'm curious because this is my academic interest. I learned about the first study you quoted while in college, but you've seriously misrepresented the results. An Ann Landers survey is not peer reviewed research, nor is it a survey of a random group. That survey reflects the women who read Ann Landers, and those who felt strongly enough to write in. I don't think scientific studies exist to back up her survey.
FitChick Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 I don't think scientific studies exist to back up her survey. They do but you'll have to look for them. Those few links I found in a minute and had neither the time nor inclination to open each of the dozens of links to read them all so I just used them as examples. Since this is your area of study, you should have no problem finding exactly what you are looking for if you make the effort.
dasein Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 I hate to say this, but I think it's men who are doing the terrible stuff these days with that. Men tend to be selfish, and they often times say that they don't want children because children / a child would take away from the attention they get from their woman. If only they would take a step back and realize it's not all about them, but often times in the relationship, it is. I hate to sound bitter on that, but they seem to think this from my experiences. Well IME I've seen many men completely marginalized once children are born in a family. He becomes just an appendage to the family, ironically usually the appendage where all the money comes from. In light of that, I find the characterization "realize it's not all about them" in the above to be a distortion of the issues people actually weigh when deciding to have children or not. Asking women to analyze and weigh their desire to have children carefully is just another thing men are apparently not allowed to do. IMO, people who have children "just because" are the ones being selfish. 1
xxoo Posted April 29, 2012 Posted April 29, 2012 They do but you'll have to look for them. Those few links I found in a minute and had neither the time nor inclination to open each of the dozens of links to read them all so I just used them as examples. Since this is your area of study, you should have no problem finding exactly what you are looking for if you make the effort. THis is the closest I could find to a stat on parental regret: The only high-quality study of parents' satisfaction dates back to a nation-wide survey of about 1,400 parents by the Research Analysis Corp. in 1976, but its results were stark: When asked, "If you had it to do over again, would you or would you not have children?" 91% of parents said yes, and only 7% expressed buyer's remorse. THe next paragraph had the stats on childless regret: When asked, "If you had to do it over again, how many children would you have, or would you not have any at all?" 24% of childless adults over the age of 40 wanted to be child-free the second time around, and only 5% more were undecided. Source: The Case for Having More Kids - WSJ.com That's an old study, but that is the most recent I can find asking specifically about regretting the decision to have or not have children.
xxoo Posted April 30, 2012 Posted April 30, 2012 Well IME I've seen many men completely marginalized once children are born in a family. He becomes just an appendage to the family, ironically usually the appendage where all the money comes from. In light of that, I find the characterization "realize it's not all about them" in the above to be a distortion of the issues people actually weigh when deciding to have children or not. Asking women to analyze and weigh their desire to have children carefully is just another thing men are apparently not allowed to do. IMO, people who have children "just because" are the ones being selfish. I will not deny this happens. I've seen it happen. But it is not the fault of one parent when it happens. A father who wants to be involved does not need his wife's permission to be involved with his children beyond providing a paycheck.
dasein Posted April 30, 2012 Posted April 30, 2012 I will not deny this happens. I've seen it happen. But it is not the fault of one parent when it happens. A father who wants to be involved does not need his wife's permission to be involved with his children beyond providing a paycheck. Yes, absolutely, there is fault both ways. What I was objecting to is the characterization that men who hesitate to have children do so because of a selfish "it's all about them" attitude. There is more to it than that, much of it due to seeing, in married friends, the complete devaluation of the man and his desires once children are in the picture. It doesn't have to be so lopsided, there's absolutely no reason for it to be, but is in enough cases to give many men pause. 1
Radu Posted April 30, 2012 Posted April 30, 2012 I will not deny this happens. I've seen it happen. But it is not the fault of one parent when it happens. A father who wants to be involved does not need his wife's permission to be involved with his children beyond providing a paycheck. You obviously are not aware of the double standard that is applied to men in divorce courts.
xxoo Posted April 30, 2012 Posted April 30, 2012 You obviously are not aware of the double standard that is applied to men in divorce courts. Divorce court? I'm talking about married parents. The husband and wife may fail to meet each other's needs, but a father can not be marginalized in the family without his consent. It is his responsibility to be an involved father, and build a relationship with his children. As for divorce, family court has changed a lot in the last couple decades. 50/50 custody is the standard today.
Radu Posted April 30, 2012 Posted April 30, 2012 Again, it can happen. Look up parental alienation, it happens to couples who are married too.
Cypress25 Posted May 1, 2012 Posted May 1, 2012 Until you show me these studies, I'm not going to believe any of this. News You Can Use: Are Babies Bad for Marriage? | Marriage, Partnership & Divorce This is common knowledge now, I'm surprised you haven't heard about it. Besides, you can see it for yourself. Between married couples, the most arguments are about money and the kids. Once you have kids, you have more to argue about. And the demands of parenting make people stressed and irritable, which means they're more likely to lose their temper with their spouse. From a biology point of view a woman without maternal instincts has lost some of her humanity and sex appeal. Men are still attracted to signs of fertility (even the men that do not want children). LOL, I have no trouble attracting men. Besides, I don't believe that evolutionary psychology crap. Too many men are attracted to slender women (the ones without child-bearing hips) for me to believe it. And I'm pretty sure I'm fertile, and I've definitely got hips, lol. I'm certainly not going to change my mind about kids just to attract men! Intelligence is inherited and if intelligent folks decide not to reproduce humanity will become less intelligent. So? Not my problem. Besides, intelligent people don't always produce intelligent offspring. DNA isn't that clear-cut. All those ME, ME, ME folks that despise children are contributing to the demise of Western Civilization. There's another bingo, the myth that childfree people are selfish. One of the reasons I don't want kids is because I do a lot of volunteer work, and I wouldn't have time to volunteer if I had kids. But, consider why some do and don't. Typically why people do not want them is because they don't want the responsibility or to dedicate the time/energy to it. A child will only tie them down. But, chances are, whether or not you have them, you will be tied to something anyway be it a job or something. That's a myth too. I'm not trying to avoid responsibility. I have a job, I have bills to pay, I have pets to take care of, I have taxes to file. Everyone has responsibilities and obligations, whether they have kids or not. But my other responsibilities don't make me miserable, and I think having kids would make me miserable. Really, it's not hard to understand why some people don't want kids. The job of parenting doesn't appeal to everyone.
Author irc333 Posted May 1, 2012 Author Posted May 1, 2012 Recently, I'm starting to see women on online dating profiles who are approaching 40 or over 40, and STILL wanting kids. Not al ot of them, but it kind of suprises me. One already has a kid, age 42. and still want's more another age 38, and has in ALL CAPS "If you're not considering having children, pass this profile by!" At that age, my desire went down...don't want to be an elderly parent, and to be honest, I hear there are health risks past the age of 40 for a woman to bear children. And I wonder if they already had, and raised them, why have more....esp. at that age?
Oxy Moronovich Posted May 1, 2012 Posted May 1, 2012 News You Can Use: Are Babies Bad for Marriage? | Marriage, Partnership & Divorce This is common knowledge now, I'm surprised you haven't heard about it. Besides, you can see it for yourself. Between married couples, the most arguments are about money and the kids. Once you have kids, you have more to argue about. And the demands of parenting make people stressed and irritable, which means they're more likely to lose their temper with their spouse. This was your original quote: Marriage isn't just for having kids. It's about spending the rest of your life with the person you love. Studies have shown that marital satisfaction goes way down after a couple has kids. Marriage without kids is better. Here's the last paragraph of that article: The bottom line? When men and women work together to plan when to have children and then establish a collaborative approach to parenthood when children are young, it's a win-win situation for the couple and for the children. Your article is saying not take a wise approach to parenting is the reason satisfaction decreases. Kids aren't the main reason. So your studies haven't proven what you said: "Studies have shown that marital satisfaction goes way down after a couple has kids." In any case, the Cowans didn't do research with couples without kids. Nor did they indicate how they measure happiness in relationships. They said satisfaction goes way down. But how did they measure that? Using what criteria? People would be wise to dissect articles before believing them outright because it furthers their agenda.
xxoo Posted May 1, 2012 Posted May 1, 2012 In any case, the Cowans didn't do research with couples without kids. Nor did they indicate how they measure happiness in relationships. They said satisfaction goes way down. But how did they measure that? Using what criteria? This is true. Marital satisfaction declines in general with time (on average--not for all couples, just like not for all parents). The first child is, if nothing else, a great big test of the relationship. But all couples will be tested in time by life challenges. Most people who have children experience it as a tremendous source of joy. A temporary decline in marital satisfaction may be worth it for most parents when the rewards are (in our experience) overall, long term life satisfaction of having children and hopefully grandchildren.
Radu Posted May 1, 2012 Posted May 1, 2012 Recently, I'm starting to see women on online dating profiles who are approaching 40 or over 40, and STILL wanting kids. Not al ot of them, but it kind of suprises me. One already has a kid, age 42. and still want's more another age 38, and has in ALL CAPS "If you're not considering having children, pass this profile by!" At that age, my desire went down...don't want to be an elderly parent, and to be honest, I hear there are health risks past the age of 40 for a woman to bear children. And I wonder if they already had, and raised them, why have more....esp. at that age? It affects men as well. 35 is i think the top female age where you won't risk spontanous abortion or the baby being born with defects (more so than usual i mean) 35-40 it increases 40+ it skyrockets I think at around 40 your only chances are with IVF, hence the huge increase in fraternal twins being born. Starting with 35-40 men's sperm quality also declines ... i refer to the DNA quality. Bottom line, after 35yrs old both men and women start to suffer a decline in quality of DNA they can pass off to their offsprings, which is one of the causes of Down Syndrome.
Pierre Posted May 1, 2012 Posted May 1, 2012 In the end the only people that should have children are folks that don't have money problems and can easily afford children without suffering any handicap. Poor people with little to offer to the kids should not have children.
Radu Posted May 1, 2012 Posted May 1, 2012 This is exactly what Bill Gates's foundation was trying to achieve in Africa (more BC and better healthcare). Someone should queue in the republicans on this one.
pink_sugar Posted May 1, 2012 Posted May 1, 2012 Of course they can. Granted my dad and his ex-W got married for convenience, but her wanting a child with him got them divorced real quick. (She has a 11 year old from previous relationship and my brother and I are 22 and 26) My dad didn't want anymore kids and his ex-W still being only 29, has plenty of time to have more kids.
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