"There Is Nothing Wrong With You": For the Single Ladies

[Woggle]

Please get some counseling. I am not saying this to be unsympathetic because there have been times where I pretty much hated the opposite sex but seeking some help would do you good.

[zengirl]

Yeah, yeah, victim hood, personal responsibility, blah blah. Reminds me of the bullies in high school who would mock me mercilessly until I cracked, and then turn around and say I was being a "victim" because "no one can make you feel bad without your permission."

 

Well, both of those things are true. Bullying is wrong, and you can be bullied. However, you can also decide to not feel intimidated, disempowered, etc, particularly in situations where no physical risk exists (if someone has a gun in your face or has stuffed you in a locker, your lack of empowerment is probably not just a state of mind). Kamille told a story --- I think in SD's recent 'impossible' thread but maybe somewhere else --- about bullying and empowerment and the complex relationship they have.

 

At the end of the day, the answer is this: YOU have to take YOUR power back. Whether you do that by telling the principal about the behavior or saying NO to their faces when they try to bully you or just deciding you're going to get through it and laugh at them later in life or WHATEVER is your choice --- you have an array of choices in most cases at HOW to take power back, but you have to choose to exercise them.

 

In this thread, for instance (where no one is being 'bullied' but where you feel like a victim now or discouraged, etc), you could decided to ignore the opinions that bother you, you could decide to combat them, or you could decide to feel discouraged by them. The fact that the latter is your natural style is a matter of socialization, constant habit, and choice, and it's going to take CONSTANT conscious choice to move forward and change styles.

 

But the constant attitude... that I'm broken because I'm single, that single women are all "delusional," that fat women are worthless, that older women are worn out, that it's MY fault men don't find me attractive, regardless of what I do... really drags me down.

 

I think it's mostly your fault you're unhappy because you're choosing to be (the factors that make you unhappy may not be your fault, but your choice to allow them to make you unhappy is your fault/responsibility), but none of this other stuff is true or even really been said in this thread.

[verhrzn]

At the end of the day, the answer is this: YOU have to take YOUR power back. Whether you do that by telling the principal about the behavior or saying NO to their faces when they try to bully you or just deciding you're going to get through it and laugh at them later in life or WHATEVER is your choice --- you have an array of choices in most cases at HOW to take power back, but you have to choose to exercise them.

 

In this thread, for instance (where no one is being 'bullied' but where you feel like a victim now or discouraged, etc), you could decided to ignore the opinions that bother you, you could decide to combat them, or you could decide to feel discouraged by them. The fact that the latter is your natural style is a matter of socialization, constant habit, and choice, and it's going to take CONSTANT conscious choice to move forward and change styles.

 

Except I did try combating them, and just got yelled at and put down MORE in the process. That whole "stand up to the bullies and empower yourself!" doesn't work.

 

When I tell the principal, I'm then ostracized as a "tattle tale." If I combat them, then I get in trouble as the bully. If I stand up to them, they just double up their efforts. I got bullied LESS when I just lay down and played dead. As soon as I stood up to them, they made it their mission to destroy me.

 

The case of Phoebe Prince is a great example of this. She freaking hanged herself to escape her bullies, and after a short window of sympathy, suddenly all the news article were about how unstable she is, how she was a slut with daddy issues, etc. The people who bullied her to suicide wrote awful things on her Memorial FB wall, and the overwhelming response was "Oh well, that's life."

 

There's a certain point where the whole "take back your power" thing is just an illusion, or just flat out doesn't work.

 

 

I think it's mostly your fault you're unhappy because you're choosing to be (the factors that make you unhappy may not be your fault, but your choice to allow them to make you unhappy is your fault/responsibility), but none of this other stuff is true or even really been said in this thread.

 

You mean like on the very first page?...

 

as for the rest...if you are...

 

1) a drama queen

2) devoid of self confidence

3) dishonest

 

then yes, you are a hole. you have no other redeeming quality. sadly, one or more of these describes a majority of single women, from my experience.

[jobaba]

Well, both of those things are true. Bullying is wrong, and you can be bullied. However, you can also decide to not feel intimidated, disempowered, etc, particularly in situations where no physical risk exists (if someone has a gun in your face or has stuffed you in a locker, your lack of empowerment is probably not just a state of mind). Kamille told a story --- I think in SD's recent 'impossible' thread but maybe somewhere else --- about bullying and empowerment and the complex relationship they have.

 

Not every child, and CHILD is the operative word here ... is able to rationalize the fact that bullying is the result of immaturity. And often, they will just take it out on themselves. And bullying is not something you can always chalk up to childish immaturity. Sometimes bullying is relentless and is carried on by truly bad kids who will be bad people when they grow up.

 

There's a fantastic documentary out on it now aptly titled 'Bully'. I recommend everybody try and catch it.'

 

If you watch it, you will be shocked at what some of the children did AFTER they drove one child to suicide.

 

Phoebe Prince was also mocked by some of her classmates post-mortem.

Edited April 26, 2012 by jobaba

[dasein]

Since "bullying" now appears to be the thread's tack:

 

I've lived in a world crammed full of the sentiments expressed in the OP article for decades, 20 years as an adult. I paid a subscription to a business magazine recently called "Fast Company" only to see the article "Girls are Better than Boys" in the first issue I received a month ago, ate up lots of the content in the issue. In my professional magazine, I am barraged with sexist, feminist columns and articles constantly, "Look how far we have come! there's still much farther to go... (in the war against men)." My alumni magazines are filled with the same crap about speech codes, campus rape policies, etc.

 

If I have the audacity to say anything about those, to complain IRL, I'm branded as an extremist, a sexist, misogynist, maybe even an "agitator," someone to be watched. Decades of -that- is being bullied. Being called on linking an inflammatory, same old same old "bad, bad men, poor, poor women" article here? Not bullying.

 

Post some more of those types of articles, this one is number two you have posted, it's certainly your right to do so. Next time I'm going to simply start linking antifeminist youtube videos in response. Unlike the article in the OP, many of those videos are very well-constructed and make loads of sense.

 

No one has been "bullied" in this thread.

[thatone]

Because apparently I'm always wrong, even when I'm trying to improve.

 

I think a lot of posters on this forum won't be satisfied until I've killed myself. One less fattie in the world, anyway.

 

you don't want to improve. you want attention.

 

failing to get it from men you get it here on loveshack.

 

when you don't get it in the manner you want it you play victim so that at least you get some e-drama coming your way.

 

just like porn is instant gratification for unsatisfied men, this forum is relationship gratification for you. you can have 20-30 people arguing with you whenever you choose to stir them up, and simultaneously have a dozen or so women telling you how great you are out of blind empathy/sympathy.

 

sorry if a self-help article that says 'stop believing self help articles' fails to strike anyone here as profound wisdom. it isn't.

 

but that article isn't really the point now is it.

[verhrzn]

you don't want to improve. you want attention.

 

failing to get it from men you get it here on loveshack.

 

when you don't get it in the manner you want it you play victim so that at least you get some e-drama coming your way.

 

just like porn is instant gratification for unsatisfied men, this forum is relationship gratification for you. you can have 20-30 people arguing with you whenever you choose to stir them up, and simultaneously have a dozen or so women telling you how great you are out of blind empathy/sympathy.

 

sorry if a self-help article that says 'stop believing self help articles' fails to strike anyone here as profound wisdom. it isn't.

 

but that article isn't really the point now is it.

 

No, apparently the point was you came into this thread just to complain that nope, single women really are awful, and then claim that I'm the one who is argumentative and combative.

 

If you hate drama so much, why do you stir it up? Or did you really think saying "all single women are drama queens, dishonest, and devoid of self-confidence" on an article that tries to empower single women WOULDN'T cause someone to get even a tiny bit offended?

[mesmerized]

Since "bullying" now appears to be the thread's tack:

 

I've lived in a world crammed full of the sentiments expressed in the OP article for decades, 20 years as an adult. I paid a subscription to a business magazine recently called "Fast Company" only to see the article "Girls are Better than Boys" in the first issue I received a month ago, ate up lots of the content in the issue. In my professional magazine, I am barraged with sexist, feminist columns and articles constantly, "Look how far we have come! there's still much farther to go... (in the war against men)." My alumni magazines are filled with the same crap about speech codes, campus rape policies, etc.

 

If I have the audacity to say anything about those, to complain IRL, I'm branded as an extremist, a sexist, misogynist, maybe even an "agitator," someone to be watched. Decades of -that- is being bullied. Being called on linking an inflammatory, same old same old "bad, bad men, poor, poor women" article here? Not bullying.

 

Post some more of those types of articles, this one is number two you have posted, it's certainly your right to do so. Next time I'm going to simply start linking antifeminist youtube videos in response. Unlike the article in the OP, many of those videos are very well-constructed and make loads of sense.

 

No one has been "bullied" in this thread.

 

 

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

 

The article was not really anti-men and yet that is what you managed to see. I'm pretty sure the articles you read in your magazines are just as innocent, but being the bitter person that you are, you see what you want to see. I think you have some serious issues, probably not much less than OP's issues.

 

Verzhen is about the only female poster who let out her frustration like this sometimes yet there are many many female haters on this forum who post extremely offensive things about women every day. Shall I link to those threads? I'm starting to think you're one of those haters and if so, your posting in a thread of a woman who is trying to gain a healthy attitude is pointless.

[threebyfate]

Yeah, yeah, victim hood, personal responsibility, blah blah. Reminds me of the bullies in high school who would mock me mercilessly until I cracked, and then turn around and say I was being a "victim" because "no one can make you feel bad without your permission."

 

No, no one (lately) has told me to kill myself. But the constant attitude... that I'm broken because I'm single, that single women are all "delusional," that fat women are worthless, that older women are worn out, that it's MY fault men don't find me attractive, regardless of what I do... really drags me down. What, exactly, are the posters who constantly sell this stuff expecting to happen? For me to magically get hotter and conform to all of their wishes? Well that ain't gonna happen, so the only alternative is to continue taking their abuse.

 

Oh, or "not care." Except it's clear from posting this that THAT attitude is not allowed, which is why I had to be unilaterally smacked down with endless examples of how, nope, single women totally are to blame.

 

Like I said in an older post, how exactly is it MY fault that guys don't like me? Why do I need to take "personal responsibility" for OTHER people's expectations of me?

The vast majority of members have told you, you're neither fat or ugly. If I recall the other thread, you then said that the only people who stated this were women and a few pro-feminism men. Right after that, a couple of anti-feminist men piped up and told you, you weren't fat or ugly. That's when you zeroed into feelsgoodman, one of the harshest critics of women who base their expectations of women's weight on unrealistic standards that exceed even skinny Korean standards, that basically, only his opinion counted.

 

In other words, realistic and/or positive words of encouragement get totally ignored where you narrow your focus to a very, very small percentile of the overly critical male population and then broad brush stroke their unrealistic opinions over "all" men.

 

This isn't going to help you at all. So I second Woggle's suggestion about therapy. You have to break the negative cycle, the one your mother created within you. Your inner dialogue has to learn to realistically balance criticism, realism and praise. If overwhelmingly, everyone is telling you something where there's a major diversity in their normal opinions and how they side, why are you focused on the very few unrealistic and overcritical opinions?

[zengirl]

(jobaba - yes, bullying in schools is different at the time vs. in retrospect, primarily because we're dealing with children and when we grow up, we gain additional perspective)

 

QUOTE=verhrzn;3966708]Except I did try combating them, and just got yelled at and put down MORE in the process. That whole "stand up to the bullies and empower yourself!" doesn't work.

 

You tried combating them to get them to stop, not because you wanted to feel empowered. Feeling empowered is not dependent on the outcome.

 

IME, being outcome-dependent is a good way to be unsuccessful.

 

You mean like on the very first page?...

 

ONE person in the whole thread, who hadn't added anything else in awhile, and who I'd frankly forgotten about. That's what you have to be able to do, V - forget about things.

[zengirl]

The article was not really anti-men and yet that is what you managed to see. I'm pretty sure the articles you read in your magazines are just as innocent

 

Yeah, this is what I would wonder as well. This article is not anti-men at all. It says nothing bad about men at all. It says some bad things about society, but both men and women are responsible for society. Why would anyone assume 'society' means men? Why would you exclude women from society?

[verhrzn]

ONE person in the whole thread, who hadn't added anything else in awhile, and who I'd frankly forgotten about. That's what you have to be able to do, V - forget about things.

 

H'es just the first person I quoted. I won't even bother with Dasein, or TheBigThought, or all the others that were pretty much like "Nope, you're single cause you suck, this article is from a man-hater!"

 

As far as forgetting things, how would sticking my head in the sand help? It just gets me labeled delusional... exactly what happened in this thread. I say "yay an article that makes me feel better!" and immediately get jumped on about how stupid and lame and man-bashing it is.

 

This is the caliber of men I'm left with; who wouldn't be bitter?

[soserious1]

This looks like the female version of the "Why do nice guys finish last?" mantra we see around here all the time... meh.

 

Ladies, just like men you have a set of choices when the men you desire don't want you.

 

1. Fix the physical or personality flaws that are off putting to the men you desire.If you aren't sure what your flaws are, ask for help from trusted men in your life (preferably a brother or cousin) ask them to level with you honestly abut how men most likely view your appearance & personality.

 

2. After multiple failed efforts to engage a particular type of man, accept that you are trying too far out of your league. Lower your standards for looks, height, income & occupation, continue lowering them till you start to get dates.

 

3. Decide that you aren't willing to do any of the above, accept that it will probably take you a long time to meet someone. Also accept the fact that you might end up partnerless.

[zengirl]

H'es just the first person I quoted. I won't even bother with Dasein, or TheBigThought, or all the others that were pretty much like "Nope, you're single cause you suck, this article is from a man-hater!"

 

Well, many said the article was from a man-hater or some such, but that has nothing to do with whether you're single because you suck (which is untrue). Someone can dislike the article and not have that POV. TBQ admitted the article had some good points --- he claimed it lacked logic. I don't really think it 'lacks' logic so much as is not an article built upon logic --- it's an emotional piece designed to connect emotionally, rather than logically, which is why it moved you towards new thoughts.

 

As far as forgetting things, how would sticking my head in the sand help? It just gets me labeled delusional... exactly what happened in this thread. I say "yay an article that makes me feel better!" and immediately get jumped on about how stupid and lame and man-bashing it is.

 

Why don't you focus on any of the positive thoughts on the thread? Why do negative thoughts always jump out more to you?

[thatone]

that's the thing, the post of mine she quoted is reiterating what the article she posted said.

 

that's not the point, it doesn't matter what was said, all that matters is she needs to feel like a victim and get lots of victim attention.

[zengirl]

that's the thing, the post of mine she quoted is reiterating what the article she posted said.

 

Well, not really. I think what she's objecting to is the comment on most single women don't fit those qualifications and thus have no redeeming qualities and the needlessly offensive language piece in it that preceded that statement. The article didn't imply any of that, nor did it say anything about drama queens, etc --- it just said to BE A PERSON, rather than attempting to be an ideal.

[verhrzn]

Well, many said the article was from a man-hater or some such, but that has nothing to do with whether you're single because you suck (which is untrue).

 

And yet constantly pounded into my head. Hey, SoSerious even came along to emphasize my point! Ain't that swell. "Get prettier or settle." See what I mean? Why bother with even trying to improve if the world is just gonna shove you down anyway for trying? I can't even have a DAY of feeling better without posters on this board piling on. I guess you only get support if you're male...

 

Why don't you focus on any of the positive thoughts on the thread? Why do negative thoughts always jump out more to you?

 

Because negative is what needs to be addressed. I tried ignoring them or riding them off originally in this thread, and they just got bigger and nastier. ThatOne couldn't be contented calling all single women drama queens and liars, he just had to come back just to call ME a drama queen and a failure, because I didn't subscribe to his little worldview. The negativity is so strong and so overpowering it drowns out everything else.

 

Negative things are what stand in my way from feeling better, in other words.

[mesmerized]

Yeah, this is what I would wonder as well. This article is not anti-men at all. It says nothing bad about men at all. It says some bad things about society, but both men and women are responsible for society. Why would anyone assume 'society' means men? Why would you exclude women from society?

 

Exactly. A lot of things it said are actually great advice for women and for men! Don't base your life based on what you think the opposite sex wants you to be. Be who YOU want to be and you will find someone who loves you for you. How is that bad advice?

[soserious1]

And yet constantly pounded into my head. Hey, SoSerious even came along to emphasize my point! Ain't that swell. "Get prettier or settle." See what I mean? Why bother with even trying to improve if the world is just gonna shove you down anyway for trying? I can't even have a DAY of feeling better without posters on this board piling on. I guess you only get support if you're male...

 

 

 

Because negative is what needs to be addressed. I tried ignoring them or riding them off originally in this thread, and they just got bigger and nastier. ThatOne couldn't be contented calling all single women drama queens and liars, he just had to come back just to call ME a drama queen and a failure, because I didn't subscribe to his little worldview. The negativity is so strong and so overpowering it drowns out everything else.

 

Negative things are what stand in my way from feeling better, in other words.

 

verhrzn

 

Just because we desire a relationship with a person doesn't obligate them to want the same thing. We can kick, scream, plead, attempt to guilt trip or shame others about what they find or don't find attractive but in the end we can't "make' another person desire us.

 

This rule applies to both men & women and solutions to this social issue are the same for both genders.

[zengirl]

You know, V. I like the message of the article, but I don't like the angry bits. I wonder if the angry bits aren't why it got through to you though -- positive change, with that edged-knife of negativity. Written with just enough cynicism to catch people who like such things perhaps. That's a rhetorical style, to be sure.

 

I just went back and re-read it. We've been discussing so long, that was time. I don't like the assertion that men are in charge --- that honestly doesn't gel with my experiences. Patriarchy still has echoes, but it's not active enough to be 'in charge' -- it's just that it was only a few generations ago. I know the writer said it was not literal, but then. . . what is it? How is that a metaphor? I don't get it. I do strongly suspect the author is older than me or you and it makes more sense to her (I get a solidly Gen X vibe, and they dealt with far more gender issues than I've ever had to).

 

I like the main idea --- the notion to be a person, the notion that 'all men who are a person want a woman who is a person' and the notion that it's about being okay. There is nothing wrong with you. Or me. Or anyone. (Even those I don't like.) There are things we could fix, or do, or work on. But we are all perfect at being exactly what we are being. If you want to be something else, you have to change. The article says that as well --- it just urges you to change towards being REAL, rather than ideal.

[dasein]

The article was not really anti-men and yet that is what you managed to see.

 

The whole article was just a sloppy, puerile delivery system for the typical blameshift "men are lying to you," the rest of the article doesn't make any coherent sense, that's just about the only thing in it that does. It doesn't take a master of literary interpretation and subtext to puzzle this out.

 

I'm pretty sure the articles you read in your magazines are just as innocent,

 

So what you are saying here is that you are capable of forming a degree of certainty unaccompanied by any knowledge whatsoever? OK.

 

I think you have some serious issues, probably not much less than OP's issues.

 

Irony, will add "serious issues" after "agitator" to the list of bullying methods posted previously.

 

I'm starting to think you're one of those haters

 

Starting to think? Glad there's a fair and balanced evaluation process at play here. Yep I'm just old Hatey Mc Haterson hatin hatin hatin all the livelong day.

[PJKino]

You just gotta get rid of the bitterness,i sometimes go through the same thoughts you do vehrzn so i know where youre coming from but it doesnt help thinking the entire gender is the enemy

 

I think the part of the article to love yourself anyway is great because you are the only person guaranteed to be there for yourself the rest of your life nobody else

 

I also know what youre saying with bullying,while its easy to say its the victim card or get over it for those of us who are sensitive people and take it too person when people dont like us in general or women arent attracted to us bullying does shape us in a way unfortunately eevne as an adult

[mesmerized]

You know, V. I like the message of the article, but I don't like the angry bits. I wonder if the angry bits aren't why it got through to you though -- positive change, with that edged-knife of negativity. Written with just enough cynicism to catch people who like such things perhaps. That's a rhetorical style, to be sure.

 

I just went back and re-read it. We've been discussing so long, that was time. I don't like the assertion that men are in charge --- that honestly doesn't gel with my experiences. Patriarchy still has echoes, but it's not active enough to be 'in charge' -- it's just that it was only a few generations ago. I know the writer said it was not literal, but then. . . what is it? How is that a metaphor? I don't get it. I do strongly suspect the author is older than me or you and it makes more sense to her (I get a solidly Gen X vibe, and they dealt with far more gender issues than I've ever had to).

 

I like the main idea --- the notion to be a person, the notion that 'all men who are a person want a woman who is a person' and the notion that it's about being okay. There is nothing wrong with you. Or me. Or anyone. (Even those I don't like.) There are things we could fix, or do, or work on. But we are all perfect at being exactly what we are being. If you want to be something else, you have to change. The article says that as well --- it just urges you to change towards being REAL, rather than ideal.

 

Actually even the in charge part has a point. The reason so many men are so angry at feminism is that the "being in charge" thing that was their territory for a long long time is slowly slipping away from their hands. Now the writer even made sure to mention "insecure men" not all men and that she realizes she is generalizing in a sloppy manner but she still makes sense.

 

And I TOTALLY agree with her on men liking confident women (secure ones ofcourse). And that's exactly where LS loses me by the huge amount of insecure hater males. Men I see in real are ALWAYS impressed by female's independence, education and even money. No quality man wants only a dumb pretty woman.

[mesmerized]

The whole article was just a sloppy, puerile delivery system for the typical blameshift "men are lying to you," the rest of the article doesn't make any coherent sense, that's just about the only thing in it that does. It doesn't take a master of literary interpretation and subtext to puzzle this out.

 

I'm sure it didn't make sense to you as a man since you didn't have to go through what she was trying to describe. And as dasein, you probably just read it quickly to find some material to start a gender war with.

 

So what you are saying here is that you are capable of forming a degree of certainty unaccompanied by any knowledge whatsoever? OK.

 

Without any knowledge? I've read tons of your posts, I think I definitely do have some knowledge. And we all know how the same thing can be interpreted differently by different people.

 

Starting to think? Glad there's a fair and balanced evaluation process at play here. Yep I'm just old Hatey Mc Haterson hatin hatin hatin all the livelong day.

 

I said "starting" because sometimes you do post useful things which shows you're not a complete hater maybe more on the bitter side. Committed haters on this forum rarely post anything worthy of reading.

[january2011]

I do strongly suspect the author is older than me or you and it makes more sense to her (I get a solidly Gen X vibe, and they dealt with far more gender issues than I've ever had to).

 

A search on Peek You indicates that she's 30 years old, so born on the cusp.

 

V - I hope that when you take a step back from this thread, you realise that you still believe in the basic messages behind the article. The messages about individual empowerment and being yourself. It's clear that the article resonated deeply with you. Otherwise, it wouldn't have got you all fired up and you wouldn't have defended it so vehemently. There will always be dissenters. Just put them on ignore. It really does work wonders!