BSs in the hot seat once again. WHY?

[Spark1111]

I am frequently amazed by the many posters who feel infidelity is completely unforgivable and the only accepted response is to leave and divorce.

 

It often is the correct response, certainly it must have been the right choice for those who did it; who knew in their hearts that they could never forgive and the relationship was over. That takes courage and I applaud you!

 

But for others, they almost have a hatred, a vitriol, for spouses who, while in enormous pain following infidelity, are still in the trenches trying to fight for the marriage; are still hoping to honor their vows and retain or preserve the integrity they have always had.

 

We didn't cheat, but damn! We are NOT stupid. Maybe it just took us longer to figure it out; to identify our true feelings --no easy feat while in the sh##storm of betrayal pain.

 

Maybe some of us will divorce down the road. Maybe some of us realized we could and should reconcile.

 

We are just NOT as angry as so many of you who post here.

 

So, I guess, I do not understand why some are so angry that I, and others like me, chose to give it a shot, my all, to preserve what I thought was a good, often great relationship.

 

If you were so happy to have divorced the cheater, why are some still so angry, and angry about infidelity?

 

If a man chooses to work on his marriage, he isn't ALWAYS a coward or a cuckold.

 

If a woman chooses to work on her marriage, it isn't ALWAYS because she needed to win or had no other options.

 

So, just like many in the OW/OM forum who come for support and get slammed, the same is true here too!

 

Does anyone understand this?

 

Not only do we have to deal with the pain of betrayal, but when we first come here, so many get slammed for trying to give the marriage a fighting chance.

 

Thoughts?

[SandieBeach]

I was actually thinking about the same thing this morning..It has gotten very bad on some of the threads that it's actually painful to read.

 

There is nothing about my husband's affair that I am in denial about: I'm still upset, I still don't trust him (I believe him a lot of the time, but I don't trust him). So, my choosing to stay and give this marriage a chance, doesn't mean I am an idiot (ok, jury is still out on that one ). In my opinion, if a person truly believes his/her decision is smart (i.e. if I divorce and claim to be happier than ever), then s/he would let go of that anger and move on. Posters who offer angry and sometimes even hateful comments haven't, in my opinion, let go. They might even be angry at themselves, and really just projecting on the BS who happens to be in the spotlight.

[ISurvived]

I am all for giving marriage a fighting chance. Heck, I stayed through 2 D-Days.

 

I think that what you see in some of these posts is anger that a BS would allow themselves to continue to be abused in the face of continued bad behavior by the WS. Sometimes it is easier to see from the outside looking in.

 

Let's face it, us BS lived in denial for awhile after our discovery of the affair. I don't believe in the "fog", but denial is a real reaction. We don't want to believe that we could miss all the signs and symptoms of our spouse straying. We lie to ourselves and try to say "WS would never do that to me".

 

I'm not for immediately jumping to divorce. However, with continued bad behavior by a WS after a fair amount of time (6 months or so), I think it has to come into the conversation.

[SandieBeach]

I am all for giving marriage a fighting chance. Heck, I stayed through 2 D-Days.

 

I think that what you see in some of these posts is anger that a BS would allow themselves to continue to be abused in the face of continued bad behavior by the WS. Sometimes it is easier to see from the outside looking in.

 

Let's face it, us BS lived in denial for awhile after our discovery of the affair. I don't believe in the "fog", but denial is a real reaction. We don't want to believe that we could miss all the signs and symptoms of our spouse straying. We lie to ourselves and try to say "WS would never do that to me".

 

I'm not for immediately jumping to divorce. However, with continued bad behavior by a WS after a fair amount of time (6 months or so), I think it has to come into the conversation.

 

I don't buy this. I can be sad to see a BS allowing him/herself to live with someone who doesn't care about the marriage, but to be angry with you and insulting you...and we don't even know each other! Of course people should offer their advice and opinions, but if a BS doesn't want to take it, then why on Earth should the advice-giver be angry about it?

[Ninja'sHusband]

AMEN CHEER APPLAUSE WOOHOOO!!!!

 

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

 

On the other hand I just exposed my WW's A to her dojo So much for forgiveness.... Yay for truth!!!

[nofool4u]

I am frequently amazed by the many posters who feel infidelity is completely unforgivable and the only accepted response is to leave and divorce.

 

Why amazed? Its an opinion and personal preference. Some people, like me, simply don't see the use in staying with someone that cheats. Simple as that.

 

That doesn't mean I will look down on anyone that does stay. I sympathize with them.

 

 

It often is the correct response, certainly it must have been the right choice for those who did it; who knew in their hearts that they could never forgive and the relationship was over. That takes courage and I applaud you!

 

But for others, they almost have a hatred, a vitriol, for spouses who, while in enormous pain following infidelity, are still in the trenches trying to fight for the marriage; are still hoping to honor their vows and retain or preserve the integrity they have always had.

 

Oh I know there are a small handful of poster that will get down on a BS that chooses to stay. I never will, with the exception of a BS that starts lambasting the opinions respectfully conveyed by others simply because it doesn't conform to what they already know they want to do.

 

 

So, I guess, I do not understand why some are so angry that I, and others like me, chose to give it a shot, my all, to preserve what I thought was a good, often great relationship.

 

If it works out for you, then I'm happy for you. Now if you ended up taking the advice from someone like me, whose only motivation is to help you since I've been in your shoes, only to tell me I'm an angry POS or something, then the gloves come off.

 

I know you didn't act this way towards me, I'm just speaking in "what if".

 

 

If you were so happy to have divorced the cheater, why are some still so angry, and angry about infidelity?

 

Because we despise people that cheat. Just because we are happy that we got rid of a cheater doesn't mean we can't still find the actions of such people reprehensible.

 

 

If a man chooses to work on his marriage, he isn't ALWAYS a coward or a cuckold.

 

Well the definition of a cuckold is a man married to an unfaithful wife. Now if reconciliation happens then the man no longer remains a cuckold.

 

But, IMO, if a man reconciles with his wife, but the wife isn't truly remorseful, then he is still a cuckold. Even if wife doesn't actually cheat again, she is unfaithful in her heart (and same with gender roles reversed)

 

Does anyone understand this?

 

I only understand a BS getting some heat back if, for example, say someone advises a BS to get a divorce because their WS is obviously a cheating POS that will never be truly faithful, whether an affair ever happens again or not. Then because said BS doesn't like the advice, they start slamming the person that is trying to speak from experience. THEN I understand when a BS takes some heat.

 

 

Not only do we have to deal with the pain of betrayal, but when we first come here, so many get slammed for trying to give the marriage a fighting chance.

 

Thoughts?

 

I'd never slam a BS for choosing to stay with their WS, so long as they don't slam me for my stance on cheating.

[ISurvived]

I don't buy this. I can be sad to see a BS allowing him/herself to live with someone who doesn't care about the marriage, but to be angry with you and insulting you...and we don't even know each other! Of course people should offer their advice and opinions, but if a BS doesn't want to take it, then why on Earth should the advice-giver be angry about it?

 

Everyone reacts to things in different ways. What you find insulting, others see as being matter of fact.

 

Maybe some become angry because without a change in the WS, they can pretty well see what the outcome will be 9/10. Once again, easier to see on the outside looking in.

[YellowShark]

I look at it this way.

 

If a cop is "dirty," and discovered, he isn't welcomed with open arms back on the force, he is fired. If an attorney is "dirty" they are almost always fired from the firm and disbarred. If a teller is dirty, they aren't kept on staff, the bank fires them ASAP.

 

So why do "dirty" spouses get a free pass? Seriously. Think about it. Your spouse is generally the closest person to you in your life. Financially and emotionally. They generally hold a place of "trust" far more important, and far deeper than any cop, lawyer, or teller.

 

So when they cheat they are driving a bus over you, lying to you, having sex with another without your knowledge. I don't care what their rationalizations are. For me infidelity is a dealbreaker, and something that is virtually irreparable. For the rest of your life, no matter how "healed" the relationship may be, somewhere in the back of your mind you will look at them and wonder.. "could they do it again?" I just don't want to live with that nagging thought. I want to be able to trust the person closest to me 100%, 100% of the time.

 

I will not tell anyone what is best for them, I just know from my experience what is best for me. And what is best for me is a partner in life who has clear and strong ethics and morals... someone who *knows* banging someone at work, or an old flame is absolutely wrong.

[SandieBeach]

Everyone reacts to things in different ways. What you find insulting, others see as being matter of fact.

 

Maybe some become angry because without a change in the WS, they can pretty well see what the outcome will be 9/10. Once again, easier to see on the outside looking in.

 

No, ISurvived, I'm actually talking about hateful and insulting posts. Not the hard truth. Hard truth is good but vicious name calling shouldn't have a place.

[Steen719]

 

If you were so happy to have divorced the cheater, why are some still so angry, and angry about infidelity?

 

Thoughts?

 

OK, I am not mad at any of you and haven't been rude.

 

I was a BS 2x. I chose to stay the first time, not the second. I was not happy divorcing my XH. It was the single hardest thing I have ever done. I did it to preserve my self respect (we,, maybe get it back) and to keep from going insane trying to figure out why I would stay with anyone who would do this to me twice. My point is that most everyone who does not stay is not happy. They probably are sad like I was, very sad.

 

BUT, in just a couple of cases, I have seen some people on here stay with a spouse that is clearly not trying.....sorry NH. He is knocking himself out trying to make his M work and says pretty much the same thing every time about what she is doing. He is posting to get opinions, not agreement (I am assuming), so he is going to get some opinions that he doesn't like. While I agree that being rude and name calling is uncalled for, I also think sometimes when someone posts the same issues, same problems, still wondering my nothing is working, I guess people want him to see what he/she is doing. I would push the ignore button if I didn't want to see that person's comments or tell them not to post on my threads anymore.

 

Everyone deals with the betrayal they have faced in different ways. You're right, you have every right to stay and not be condemned or called out for it. You made it work, your spouse made efforts to make it better, to keep you, to make you feel like they wanted it more than anything. I think most of us wish we had experienced that, but we didn't. So, while I think it is fine for anyone to do what they want to in their own marriages, I don't think assuming that those of us who divorced "our cheaters" were happy doing it is a good call.

[anne1707]

We are just NOT as angry as so many of you who post here.

 

Spark - I don't think it is because you were not as angry at dday. It hurt you (and my H) just as much as those who cannot understand how you chose to reconcile. I do think, however, that you managed to deal with that anger afterwards in a way that some cannot understand. You chose to "let it go" for want of a better choice of words.

 

If a man chooses to work on his marriage, he isn't ALWAYS a coward or a cuckold.

 

If a woman chooses to work on her marriage, it isn't ALWAYS because she needed to win or had no other options.

 

Absolutely - it takes strength to end the marriage, it takes strength to stay

[wuggle]

I think I understand (as well as most anyway).

 

Hate and vitriol are based on fear. When some people find they have been betrayed they lash out, the life and future life that they thought was theirs has been taken away from them, the assumptions and life they assumed they could rely on have been snatched away, suddenly there is no 'certainty', no control. This causes pain and fear, no wonder really they lash out and do and say nasty things, often to the person (and sometimes persons) they profess to love. We all want to feel safe, loved and secure. We go to such lengths to gain this acceptance, this comfort, this security, it is in our nature. We need it. We are emotionally lazy (but that's ok, that's who we are, who wants to have to think every minute of every day about their life and relationships. It's good to be able to take things for granted (maybe not all the time though)).

 

I don't think it's fair to blame anyone for the nastiness of word or deed that these situations breed. To have everything you assumed was yours snatched away from you is a bit of a jolt for anyone, to put it mildly.

 

For some people it takes a lot of time to work through these issues and pain, many eventually figure it all out, some can't and remain bitter. Some people seem more secure in themselves and can see the pain, the reasons, the mistakes (both theirs and those of thier loved ones) and try to moderate the pain and bitterness.

 

I think the key is not to judge those in pain for lashing out, just try to nudge them towards not lashing out as much, to limit the damage. So much damage and pain is caused by people who have been hurt. It's sad, In the end, the people that are hurt are those we said we loved.

 

How ironic.

[Black Jack]

It's not entirely about BSs and whether they're hurt is justified or not. It's about those who are in denial who constantly ridicule other BSs who've divorced and are not pushovers, and steadily call them bitter abusers for being rightly angry about their spouse cheating on them, especially when they've only found out not even 3 years ago. Every BS does not stick around for the sake of the kids and their futures, being overly paranoid that somehow if they divorce their kids will die of shock. *sigh*

 

Come on now. Not everyone sleeps with their heads in the sand, and not everyone loves sloppy seconds from their tainted spouses. There's a difference between giving a marriage a "fighting chance" and being an ignorant hypocrite when assuming that all betrayed husbands are bitter or wrong and abusive to have emotions. And there's a difference between giving a marriage a "fighting chance" and lying to newly betrayed spouses who come here, about the chances of a successful reconciliation. It's so funny that BSs in denial like to tease others who divorced their skank spouses while they're still living with the animal that stabbed THEM in the back the moment it was turned. And they turn around and call people of confidence arrogant asswipes when they won't even stick up for themselves and acknowledge their own issues!

[wuggle]

It's so funny that BSs in denial like to tease others who divorced their skank spouses while they're still living with the animal that stabbed THEM in the back the moment it was turned. And they turn around and call people of confidence arrogant asswipes when they won't even stick up for themselves and acknowledge their own issues!

 

Really ? is this partner who was probably loved, suddenly a 'skank' ?

 

Really ?

 

Is life really that simple ?, this person that you loved turned out to be a 'skank' ? what a horrible, painful word. Do you take this 'skank' ...?

 

Surely when the pain dies down you will see that this person probably isn't anymore of a 'skank' than you are ? maybe we all are ?

 

I wish life was that simple but sadly it isn't. I have met very few 'skanks' but a lot of dis-illusioned, sad people.

[Black Jack]

Really ? is this partner who was probably loved, suddenly a 'skank' ?

 

Really ?

 

Is life really that simple ?, this person that you loved turned out to be a 'skank' ? what a horrible, painful word. Do you take this 'skank' ...?

 

You keep rephrasing the same question repeatedly as if that is a substantive argument.

 

Please reread my post as I have not said that a partner who was loved, was suddenly a skank. You're projecting once again.

 

Surely when the pain dies down you will see that this person probably isn't anymore of a 'skank' than you are ? maybe we all are ?

 

*shakes head* LOL I'm not going to return your baiting flame comment with the same force you just dished out to me, as I don't want to be infracted given I know your own particular history with infidelity, but suffice it to say I'm not a skank and I'm pretty sure everyone in this world is not a skank.

 

I wish life was that simple but sadly it isn't.

 

When it comes to infidelity life is really that simple.

 

Black and white as they say in the North.

 

I have met very few 'skanks' but a lot of dis-illusioned, sad people.

 

Same here.

[ISurvived]

No, ISurvived, I'm actually talking about hateful and insulting posts. Not the hard truth. Hard truth is good but vicious name calling shouldn't have a place.

 

I still say it depends on perception. Our MC once made a profound statement: "Perception is reality". What he meant was how you perceive things is reality to you. Example: I could post that a WS was a liar. Some may perceive that as insulting when others see it as matter of fact.

[wuggle]

When it comes to infidelity life is really that simple.

 

Disagree. Life is never simple. If you think it is you have got it wrong

 

To counter your other statement "I'm not going to return your baiting flame comment with the same force you just dished out to me", you have my word of honour that I wasn't actually aiming this comment at you (to my shame I don't actually know your history as well as you may know mine, having become dis-illusioned many months ago with the moderation of this site, which does seem to have improved much of late). I was trying to generalise and point out that the pain of betrayal and fear caused by the removal of 'certainty' was what causes people to lash out and label people as 'skanks' and other horrible names

 

I really don't know you and certainly wasn't having a 'pop' at you.

[Black Jack]

Disagree. Life is never simple. If you think it is you have got it wrong

 

If you'd read my post, I never said that life was that simple. I'm sure we both can agree on that. But in regards to infidelity (as I said before), it's not a complex issue.

 

To counter your other statement "I'm not going to return your baiting flame comment with the same force you just dished out to me", you have my word of honour that I wasn't actually aiming this comment at you (to my shame I don't actually know your history as well as you may know mine, having become dis-illusioned many months ago with the moderation of this site, which does seem to have improved much of late). I was trying to generalise and point out that the pain of betrayal and fear caused by the removal of 'certainty' was what causes people to lash out and label people as 'skanks' and other horrible names.

 

So you think that a wife who has slept with multiple men for years is not a cheating skank? Wow. Please do tell me what is your definition of a cheating skank.

 

I really don't know you and certainly wasn't having a 'pop' at you.

 

Fair enough.

[SomedayDig]

My thought is if you're not married or never have been married get the fu*k off this side of LS. Who'd wanna listen to someone who has zero practical information?

[wuggle]

If you'd read my post, I never said that life was that simple. I'm sure we both can agree on that. But in regards to infidelity (as I said before), it's not a complex issue.

 

I re-read your post and still (respectfully) disagree. The issue of 'infidelity' in humans is probably the single most complex issue there is. There are IMO the 'base' or subconscious issues, which concern themselves with 'propagation of the species' (in other words f*cking everything that moves) which have been evolved over millions of years, 'fighting' or being 'moderating by' the last few thousands of years of 'social evolution' which tries to 'riegn in' these 'base' feelings and mediate them to the betterment of a group structure of society.

 

It doesn't get any more complicated than this. It really doesn't. If you think I'm wrong, tell me one area that is more complicated ??

 

This is the core of the complexity of our species. Many of us think we understand ourselves, and can control our inner self, but in reality we have no idea what the hell we are doing. The subconscious cannot be 'controlled' or 'caged', at best we can (with a great effort) monitor it and try to moderate the damage. When we hurt we lash out. It takes a great deal of effort to see through the pain and see that we are all 'villians' (and heroes) in the play.

 

 

So you think that a wife who has slept with multiple men for years is not a cheating skank? Wow. Please do tell me what is your definition of a cheating skank.

 

I don't know, I would guess that she is hurting, confused, unsatisfied (emotionally or physically), or something similar. Same as a man in the similar situation might be called. If you lash out when you are hurt are you a skank ??

[beenburned]

SD,

 

 

I am a BW whose H was completely remorseful, and bent over backward to change into the model H.

 

There was no fog, no blame shifting, only taking total responsibility for his horrible actions.

 

I am also in the 35% of couples who have made it long term years after d-day.

[seren]

I am not sure what everyone is talking about, anyone summarise what's what or point me in the direction of the thread?

[Black Jack]

I re-read your post and still (respectfully) disagree. The issue of 'infidelity' in humans is probably the single most complex issue there is. There are IMO the 'base' or subconscious issues, which concern themselves with 'propagation of the species' (in other words f*cking everything that moves) which have been evolved over millions of years, 'fighting' or being 'moderating by' the last few thousands of years of 'social evolution' which tries to 'riegn in' these 'base' feelings and mediate them to the betterment of a group structure of society.

 

I must respectfully disagree to the notion that our sexual biological urges control our brains.

 

It doesn't get any more complicated than this. It really doesn't. If you think I'm wrong, tell me one area that is more complicated ??

I'd like to say what is mathematics for $300, Alex.

 

This is the core of the complexity of our species. Many of us think we understand ourselves, and can control our inner self, but in reality we have no idea what the hell we are doing. The subconscious cannot be 'controlled' or 'caged', at best we can (with a great effort) monitor it and try to moderate the damage. When we hurt we lash out. It takes a great deal of effort to see through the pain and see that we are all 'villians' (and heroes) in the play.

So you're saying we cannot control our coochies and ding-a-lings, and that BSs are the real villains for being angry? LOL You couldn't be further from the truth.

 

Everyone has control of their actions and they can blame it on all the bs scientific theories all they want, but there is no excuse for cheating.

 

I may have learned how my digestive system works and why I am hungry, but that doesn't mean I cannot will myself not to eat for days and ignore those urges. The left side of your brain is for logical thinking. Mankind wouldn't be where it is today if it wasn't for that.

 

I don't know, I would guess that she is hurting, confused, unsatisfied (emotionally or physically), or something similar.

 

You say you don't know and guess it would be because she's not satisfied (which we obviously know is bullsht)...

 

Same as a man in the similar situation might be called. If you lash out when you are hurt are you a skank ??

 

And then you ask a rhetorical question such as the bolded above.

 

Therefore you know EXACTLY what a skank is.

[Spark1111]

Ok, BJ, Plan, and some others:

 

I am sanctimonious, condescending, in denial.....because I am happily reconciled? It only took 4 years of hard work, therapy, and a lot of changes in behavior on his part, and mine, to get here.

 

Did I get that correctly?

 

That my fWS is probably a skank because he stepped outside the marriage; or wasn't initially remorseful, still stayed in touch with the fAP for a few months while begging me to reconcile, and even trawled the waters with emails to former girlfriends while in the affair?

 

I should have given up on a man I had loved for over 20 years? In one week? One month? Six months? One year?

 

When would it have been appropriate? When would I have stopped being a fool for giving him another shot? How long was too long to wait for remorse and changed behavior toward me? how long was too long before I was an idiot?

 

You know the answer to this question? You have the crystal ball that could tell me when was too long, or when he was still making a fool of me?

 

You know this, before I did?

 

Based on magical powers? Based on what? Based on your sitch? Do you qualify your posts with a disclaimer, like I do, that says "fBS here....and based on my sitch, here is my opinion?"

 

I have NEVER seen that happen....

 

Please tell me I am wrong on this....

 

If, after 5 YEARS, anger was lashed out in every post I wrote, I could ONLY conclude this:

 

Whether I had divorced or reconciled, I was not happy in my decision,

 

OR,

 

I had not healed MYSELF to be happy in the decision I had made.

 

And me being me, I would EXAMINE that with a professional.

 

....just saying.....

[Spark1111]

The problem is that the BSs who are subject to the most criticism from the so called "bitter" BSs are being criticized because they are not lashing out enough at their WSs. They are being far too passive, nice and easy going.

 

You can feel whatever you need to feel. Absolutely no judgement there.

 

Hate anyone you want, blame anyone you care to. It is your right to do so.

 

I'm just asking you to examine IF you are in the best position to give advice to someone who is trying to forgive a cheating spouse? And to advise them how to heal a marriage if YOU have no experience in that regard.

 

If your ONLY adivce is to kick the lying cheater to the curb, that grows very old.

 

Or, if you repeatedly need to beat up on a cheating spouse, because ALL you perceive is YOUR former cheating spouse, your advice and support may be gravely tainted by your sitch.

 

I am just suggesting you.....think about it, before posting a rude, angry, non-supportive post.

 

I am not asking you to hold anyone's hand cus I don't.....

 

Just to examine what emotions are being projected onto people who come here seeking support.

 

Support them, bluntly if need be, be yourself always.....or find another thread.

 

For those of you who do not see it, others do! your advice is being ignored or disregarded because it is so hammering, rigid and angry.....ALL the time.