The truth about d-day

May 2, 2012

Am I understanding you correctly, that divorce, and subsequent marraige, can only succeed if both spouses not only give their consent to, but actually embrace, the divorce?

How about the marriage that was a mistake for only ONE partner, who is miserable and unfulfilled? How about the spouse who tried, for years, if not decades, by suggesting MC, by expressing their feelings, by suggesting solutions, etc. to fix what wasn't working for THEM in the marriage, but still felt unhappy and frustrated?

I think that has a slightly less chance of survivability than when both feel the same.

I would be concerned 1) about guilt. I mean, and we'll pretend it's a MM, lived for decades as such with the W. I would be concerned that whatever kept him in the M (and trying) would still be present. After all, one doesn't "try for decades" if he doesn't have some deep love for the W. The concern is guilt and remorse which builds a barrier between the AP's going forward.

2) I would be concerned that IF the MM does file, that the BD doesn't promise change. Would that promise illicit old feelings in the MM. Ya know, one more try type of thing.

3) the BS can, provided the MM files, create lots of drama. This will stress the AP's and possibly erode their bond, stress the R - perhaps to the point of ending it.

Yes, it is possible if only ONE tries to "save the M". I think it has a slightly less chance of survival.

May 2, 2012

rc,

Spark was only speaking of exit affairs.

Anybody that isn't happy in their marriage can get a divorce without the spouse's approval!

There is no need for the unhappy spouse to complicate matters by having an affair, they only need to divorce.

May 2, 2012

Am I understanding you correctly, that divorce, and subsequent marraige, can only succeed if both spouses not only give their consent to, but actually embrace, the divorce?

How about the marriage that was a mistake for only ONE partner, who is miserable and unfulfilled? How about the spouse who tried, for years, if not decades, by suggesting MC, by expressing their feelings, by suggesting solutions, etc. to fix what wasn't working for THEM in the marriage, but still felt unhappy and frustrated?

We agree! it could be for only one of the partners that the marriage was a mistake; that they truly married for perhaps the wrong reasons.

The friends and family are very aware of this; they support the divorce and new partner.

The most telling characteristic is swiftness of action to divorce (by one) and very little secrecy regarding the new partner.

May 2, 2012

Thank you Donna. i was looking for this study. Also, Dr. Frank Pittman will put it higher, at 25%, or 1 in 4 relationships that started as affairs succeeding but only after the couple has gone for extensive....couples therapy to ensure old patterns do NOT repeat. Dr. Pittman bases his estimation on counseling over 10,000 couples.

And, Dr. Emily Brown who has done extensive research on Split-self affairs also mentions Exit Affairs.

She does believe the marriage is dead, but the leaving partner forgot to inform the spouse. Nevertheless, exit affairees are stil labeled conflict-avoidant by her.

It seems you are confusing the percentage of EMRs which are exit affairs with a study where 4,100 successful men were surveyed whereof 88% had affairs and of these 4100 successful men 3% went on to marry their lovers. Not exactly a random choice of interview subjects and the numbers say nothing about exit affairs.

Unfortunately there are only book sources available rather than formal surveys of statistical collections of data when it comes to EMRs.

Anybody else know how common exit affairs are compared to other types of affairs? I would imagine that if the EMR is indeed an exit affair then it would be easier to tell the truth on Dday as there really is no dilemma, no internal struggle to talk about. You're already on the brink of leaving.

May 2, 2012

Ten percent of extramarital affairs last one day, 10 percent last more than one day but less than a month, 50 percent last more than a month but less than a year, but 40 percent last two or more years. Few extramarital affairs last more than four years.

Was that a quote? Because 10+10+50+40=110%

May 2, 2012

Was that a quote? Because 10+10+50+40=110%

10% failed between one year and two year mark.

So 50% make it one month (but less than a year) and 40% survive more than two years so 10% fail between the one and two year mark. Subtracting that ten percent gives you 100%.

May 2, 2012

I'd suppose that you can find statistics to support whatever you want to believe if you keep disregarding the ones that people bring here.

People don't like a stat...ask to see where you got it from, and then decide they don't like the source. I'd suggest that if you don't trust the source or don't like the stat...find research that supports your viewpoint and bring it here as a counterpoint.

Just a thought.

May 2, 2012

Was that a quote? Because 10+10+50+40=110%

10% failed between one year and two year mark.
So 50% make it one month (but less than a year) and 40% survive more than two years so 10% fail between the one and two year mark. Subtracting that ten percent gives you 100%.

Now I'm even more confused:

Ten percent of extramarital affairs last one day, 10 percent last more than one day but less than a month, 50 percent last more than a month but less than a year, but 40 percent last two or more years. Few extramarital affairs last more than four years.

100% - 10% which last one day = 90%

90% - 10% which last more than one day but less than a month = 80%

80% - 50% which last more than a month but less than a year = 30%

30% - ?% which last more than a year but less than 2 years = 30% - ?%

30% - ?% - 40% which last 2 or more years = -10% - ?% = > -10%

:eek:

May 2, 2012

10% failed between one year and two year mark.
So 50% make it one month (but less than a year) and 40% survive more than two years so 10% fail between the one and two year mark. Subtracting that ten percent gives you 100%.

What you say here makes sense, which in that case means that once you get past the 1-year mark, the EMR has a pretty good chance of making it. Which is the case with most relationships. IMO you're not past the rose-colored glasses in any relationship before the 1-year mark. Interesting that the 1-2 year survival rate was omitted. Might have made the survival rate look too good?

May 2, 2012

I'd suppose that you can find statistics to support whatever you want to believe if you keep disregarding the ones that people bring here.

People don't like a stat...ask to see where you got it from, and then decide they don't like the source. I'd suggest that if you don't trust the source or don't like the stat...find research that supports your viewpoint and bring it here as a counterpoint.

Just a thought.

As I stated before, unfortunately there are no studies on EMRs which fulfill the requirements of making it a formal survey of statistical collection of data.

Edited May 2, 2012 by trinity1

May 2, 2012

What you say here makes sense, which in that case means that once you get past the 1-year mark, the EMR has a pretty good chance of making it. Which is the case with most relationships. IMO you're not past the rose-colored glasses in any relationship before the 1-year mark. Interesting that the 1-2 year survival rate was omitted. Might have made the survival rate look too good?

Hard to say really because we don't have definitions or any further data.

I mean, 40% appear to make it past two years. What about two years and...one day or minute or month? Its not likely to stay at 40% from two years till death, there are more failures present but they are not broken down in a meaningful manner.

And what defines success? Who defines it? The former MM now H? The former OW now W? Too many significant unanswered questions.

I would have preferred to see a definition of success and a breakdown of how many AP's got M and how long the M lasted (or is lasting). That would be more telling that the primitive breakdown we are going off of.

I do think that it's a minority of cases where AP's enter into a healthy long term M. I have no data other than intuition for support.

May 2, 2012

Hard to say really because we don't have definitions or any further data.
I mean, 40% appear to make it past two years. What about two years and...one day or minute or month? Its not likely to stay at 40% from two years till death, there are more failures present but they are not broken down in a meaningful manner.

And what defines success? Who defines it? The former MM now H? The former OW now W? Too many significant unanswered questions.

I would have preferred to see a definition of success and a breakdown of how many AP's got M and how long the M lasted (or is lasting). That would be more telling that the primitive breakdown we are going off of.

I do think that it's a minority of cases where AP's enter into a healthy long term M. I have no data other than intuition for support.

Defining success as marriage between the APs seems very narrow to me. Obviously many APs do not respect the institution of marriage, so why would they want to go there?

May 2, 2012

Defining success as marriage between the APs seems very narrow to me. Obviously many APs do not respect the institution of marriage, so why would they want to go there?

For some APs success means being single again. For some APs success means being happy in the EMR. For some APs success means being happy to be in a relationship post divorce but not living together. For some APs success means being happy co-habiting. There are many variations on what success may mean.

May 2, 2012

Defining success as marriage between the APs seems very narrow to me. Obviously many APs do not respect the institution of marriage, so why would they want to go there?

Out of curiosity, how would you define success if not M between APs?

May 2, 2012

Now I'm even more confused:

100% - 10% which last one day = 90%
90% - 10% which last more than one day but less than a month = 80%
80% - 50% which last more than a month but less than a year = 30%
30% - ?% which last more than a year but less than 2 years = 30% - ?%
30% - ?% - 40% which last 2 or more years = -10% - ?% = > -10%

:eek:

I checked with Neo, math wiz, and he confirmed that my calculation above is correct given the way the statistics were stated in Donna's quote. So the numbers in that piece of statistics add up to more than 110%.

May 2, 2012

Out of curiosity, how would you define success if not M between APs?

Having a relationship which gives you happiness independent of form.

May 2, 2012

I suggest that since there are no reliable statistics on EMRs we return to the OP's question about Ddays.

We read here about d-day a lot. My question to the OW/FOW is:

You were not personally there, so the info you receive about d-day is only through the MM. How do you know he is not totally lying about what happened?

For the MM that said they left or filed for divorce, how do you know if it wasn't really the wife that kicked him out and filed for divorce?

We know for a fact the majority of divorces in the US are filed by the wife.

I believe it is quite common to trust your partner until proven wrong. When a relationship starts, trust builds. And is maintained unless something contradicts its validity.

Edited May 2, 2012 by trinity1

May 2, 2012

A's are rife with lying. They have to include a LOT of lying to survive.

I'd be interested in the basis for this assertion as your experience seems very different to mine. In my affair, no lying was required. Omission on occasion more than sufficed and the truth, when offered, was rejected.

May 2, 2012

As I stated before, unfortunately there are no studies on EMRs which fulfill the requirements of making it a formal survey of statistical collection of data.

So we either accept the current stats with this firmly in mind...or throw them out the window and guess.

I've noticed that the folks who choose not to agree with the stats are typically the ones who are the ones most likely to "lose" by those same stats.

Which should be a stat in itself.

Wonder if anyone ever conducted a formal survey and what stats people believe based on their current relationship status? LOL!

May 2, 2012

Lies by ommission, by misdirection, by implication...still lies.

Letting your ex-wife 'assume' something so that you could still continue the affair without impact is still a lie.

Unless you're in an "open" relationship that includes polyamory or other stipulations...A's pretty much require some level of deception to maintain.

Otherwise, you could just mention it all to your spouse openly and honestly without fear of repercussion. Then it's not infidelity or an affair...you're doing it with their knowledge and consent. That's an open relationship and a different situation entirely.

May 2, 2012

So we either accept the current stats with this firmly in mind...or throw them out the window and guess.

I've noticed that the folks who choose not to agree with the stats are typically the ones who are the ones most likely to "lose" by those same stats.

Which should be a stat in itself.

Wonder if anyone ever conducted a formal survey and what stats people believe based on their current relationship status? LOL!

I do not know what measures would need to be taken to convince some of stats.

It's NOT as if people openly admit to infidelity. It is not like it is a necessary admission in divorce or becomes part of the final divorce degree (which is estimated to be ONLY 17% of all divorces are caused by infidelity.)

I guess I would trust those who work closely with infidelity admitted truthfully and confidentially by couples seeking the help of a mental health PH.D. who then went on to write books about the topic.

In the case of Dr. Jan Halper (sp.?), she was writing about the "Quiet Desperation...." of successful men in the corporate world. She interviewed thousands plus administered an anonymous survey.

The admission that only 3% of the 4,000 plus senior executives she surveyed went onto marry their OW after divorce was a startling discovery and almost totally eclipsed the main topic of her research....how lonely and stressed life at the top could be.

It must have been thought as valid and fascinating as it was covered by sooo much media at the time, almost at the expense of her main topic.

May 2, 2012

The admission that only 3% of the 4,000 plus senior executives she surveyed went onto marry their OW after divorce was a startling discovery and almost totally eclipsed the main topic of her research....how lonely and stressed life at the top could be.

It must have been thought as valid and fascinating as it was covered by sooo much media at the time, almost at the expense of her main topic.

It's certainly fascinating, and it may be valid for senior executives. But are any of us here senior executives? If not, it's kind of irrelevant to our situations.

The number for the general population may also be 3%, or it could be way less, or it could be way more. I could see it either way -- senior execs have more financial security, so they can easily leave and be with whoever they want; but at the same time maybe they got to their position by stepping on other people on the way up, so why not use an AP. The thing is we just don't know.

My point is, yes, it's an interesting statistic, but it really doesn't tell us anything about the world as a whole.

(It also only tells us how many go on to to marry their AP, not how many were engaged in exit affairs (which iirc was the original question), but that's another can of worms)

May 2, 2012

Lying would completely undermine any relationship I had. Once I see someone using lying as an every day tactic to navigate through life, they are placed in a special category that includes zero trust. A's are rife with lying. They have to include a LOT of lying to survive.

This is quite interesting

May 2, 2012

So we either accept the current stats with this firmly in mind...or throw them out the window and guess.

I've noticed that the folks who choose not to agree with the stats are typically the ones who are the ones most likely to "lose" by those same stats.

Which should be a stat in itself.

Wonder if anyone ever conducted a formal survey and what stats people believe based on their current relationship status? LOL!

Owl, I think location plays a major role also...more people, higher numbers.

I think it depends on the people, stats really can't call a win or lose situation. For example, I grew up around affairs...both of my parents had affairs and married their AP's and spent 30 plus years with them. The people I worked with did the same...actually I'd love to have a survey done in my town...and FTR there has been no exaggeration in the stats I gave in a previous thread.

May 3, 2012

You can't statisticize relationships, because no 2 people are ever the same, so the numbers don't work. It's like trying to squash that square peg into a round hole.

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