The truth about d-day

May 2, 2012

We read here about d-day a lot. My question to the OW/FOW is:

You were not personally there, so the info you receive about d-day is only through the MM. How do you know he is not totally lying about what happened?

For the MM that said they left or filed for divorce, how do you know if it wasn't really the wife that kicked him out and filed for divorce?

We know for a fact the majority of divorces in the US are filed by the wife.

I agree with this one can never know unless one was there. My question in return is for those who decided to stay together, how do you know he is not totally lying about what happened the next day? What makes you think that the minute he had an explainable reason to be away from you he didn't stop and call his AP and tell them what happened, made a new email, got a new phone, etc, etc, etc? He got away with for whatever length of time why would he stop now?

May 2, 2012

I don't think it's ridiculous to at least begin to wonder at, say, year 8 or so whether a WS is just using their AP or not. All relationships use each other for their own goals. Very few people are willing to look at it that way however. I mean, any thinking person might at least question it at SOME point.Why do you think they don't? Or is the timeframe an even decade? 20 years? Never? I would think when it stops working for the people involved in the affair. How convenient that would be for a WS.or the affair partner right?[/QUOTE]

My comments are bolded.

May 2, 2012

All relationships use each other for their own goals. Very few people are willing to look at it that way however.

I totally agree with this. The person you choose to have a romantic relationship with is the person who makes you feel good.

May 2, 2012

Sure, if waiting around forever for a liar to stop lying truly makes someone as happy as they feel they deserve to be, more power to 'em.

May 2, 2012

Sure, if waiting around forever for a liar to stop lying truly makes someone as happy as they feel they deserve to be, more power to 'em.

Why do you feel the ap has no power? Technically they have all the power.

May 2, 2012

I agree with this one can never know unless one was there. My question in return is for those who decided to stay together, how do you know he is not totally lying about what happened the next day? What makes you think that the minute he had an explainable reason to be away from you he didn't stop and call his AP and tell them what happened, made a new email, got a new phone, etc, etc, etc? He got away with for whatever length of time why would he stop now?

Correct.

The BS has no real way of knowing this - if the WS post D-day wishes to resume the A there is precious little the BS (or anyone) can do to stop it.

It is also equally true...that the WS did NOT file for D and, simply going by actions, is attempting to return to the status quo. No matter how one slices it - and no matter if one is BS or AP - the WS is neither remaining faithful to the BS nor choosing the AP as a valid marriage or legitimate R target.

And if the AP finds the status quo (as OW/OM) then there are no worries.

Otherwise......

May 2, 2012

Couples staying for the kids do not go on cruises together.

I didn't say they did

May 2, 2012

Correct.

The BS has no real way of knowing this - if the WS post D-day wishes to resume the A there is precious little the BS (or anyone) can do to stop it.

It is also equally true...that the WS did NOT file for D and, simply going by actions, is attempting to return to the status quo. No matter how one slices it - and no matter if one is BS or AP - the WS is neither remaining faithful to the BS nor choosing the AP as a valid marriage or legitimate R target.

And if the AP finds the status quo (as OW/OM) then there are no worries.
Otherwise......

What do you think makes something a valid marriage? or a legitimate R?

May 2, 2012

What do you think makes something a valid marriage? or a legitimate R?

It doesn't matter what (who really) I think makes a valid M or R target.

What matters is the MM took ACTIONS to keep BOTH and did not choose one or the other. This means that the WS, for whatever reasons, is choosing the BS to keep the label "spouse" and the AP gets the label "OW/OM".

Which label is legitimate in society's eye?

That is what I meant by your quoted line....the MM CHOOSES to hand the OW/OM the illegitimate title.

I was not meaning the OW/OM is less than human or deserving in ANY way...I was speaking from a label/title perspective.

May 2, 2012

It doesn't matter what (who really) I think makes a valid M or R target.

What matters is the MM took ACTIONS to keep BOTH and did not choose one or the other. This means that the WS, for whatever reasons, is choosing the BS to keep the label "spouse" and the AP gets the label "OW/OM".

Which label is legitimate in society's eye?

That is what I meant by your quoted line....the MM CHOOSES to hand the OW/OM the illegitimate title.

I was not meaning the OW/OM is less than human or deserving in ANY way...I was speaking from a label/title perspective.

Thx for clarifying I was a bit confused.

May 2, 2012

Interesting notion. I can only speak from my own experience. I left my ex-wife more than six months before my partner was ready to join me. She would certainly never have held me back, she is not bossy or domineering like that and would never have told me what to do but it was clear that my timetable was a lot quicker than her timetable and I was in a greater hurry to be together than she was.

As for "how long before it becomes clear nothing will change" I think only the people inside the relationship can tell if progress is being made. Some progress may seem glacial to an outsider but insiders might see how dramatic it is because they recognise the true significance of some of the psychological shifts that have to take place. It seems odd that people here often speak about how many years of work it takes for an unfaithful spouse to overcome the issues that lead them to be unfaithful yet when it comes to recognising that that length of time is required for the unfaithful spouse to overcome the issues which keep them trapped in an unhappy marriage so that they can leave the marriage and self-actualise then they refuse to see that although those are usually the same issues and the same process at play. Speaking for myself I admit it took me a long time and a good deal of counselling to work through my issues which allowed me to recognise the problems in my marriage and why I was staying and to be able to overcome those and overcome those issues in myself I needed to address. Yes it took me a lot longer than I would have liked but the bonus is my wife gets a better-than-new husband she can love, trust, respect and enjoy instead of the damaged goods she'd have gotten had I escaped before I had completed the work on myself I needed to do. It was hard work but she's more than worth it.

You left within 6 months and she joined you within 1 year?

You went to counseling to repair marital damage and to become a better partner for your new spouse?

Your relationship is that very rare exit affair, three out of 100. Your marriage was dead long before you crashed into your affair partner.

I am happy for you that it worked out so well. Exit affairs usually do, as the MP has a foot out the door already. When they find normal, as in a new partner, they leave usually within a year.

It is the other 97percent of all affairs that are so heartbreaking.

May 2, 2012

Why do you feel the ap has no power? Technically they have all the power.

Is that what I said?

May 2, 2012

You left within 6 months and she joined you within 1 year?

You went to counseling to repair marital damage and to become a better partner for your new spouse?

Your relationship is that very rare exit affair, three out of 100. Your marriage was dead long before you crashed into your affair partner.

I am happy for you that it worked out so well. Exit affairs usually do, as the MP has a foot out the door already. When they find normal, as in a new partner, they leave usually within a year.

It is the other 97percent of all affairs that are so heartbreaking.

"I left my ex-wife more than six months before my partner was ready to join me." doesn't necessarily mean that the WS left the marriage within 6 months from when the EMR started. So no way to know if it really was an exit affair or not.

May 2, 2012

Your relationship is that very rare exit affair, three out of 100.

I would be interested in seeing the source of this statistic.

May 2, 2012

But perhaps a lot fewer than you think, it's all an estimation game.

Not really, I saw it first hand.

May 2, 2012

I would be interested in seeing the source of this statistic.

The only source I could find was Yahoo Answers (there was no actual link backing up these findings) and another internet forum, and that one said 5%.

From what I personally witnessed, I think this is a made up figure and is far from realistic.

May 2, 2012

The best possible d-day I can imagine is when the WS is honest with all involved, but we don't seem to hear about that case very often. Even in successful Rs, it seems it often takes a while to switch from being so deceitful to being honest.

If I understand it correctly d-day means the day the spouse discovers their spouse was unfaithful? In which case my ex-wife's d-day would have been during the divorce process when she realised I was serious about marrying my wife and had no intention of reconciling no matter how hard she tried to persuade me otherwise. This was not due to my withholding the information. I told her I had found someone else and gave notice of my intention to leave her and end the marriage a good while before I moved out. She chose not to believe me. She chose not to believe I would leave until I had left. She chose not to believe there was "someone else" until the divorce papers recorded that fact. For a d-day to be successful the message has to be received as well as given.

May 2, 2012

You left within 6 months and she joined you within 1 year?

No. I left six months before she was ready to join me. The affair had been underway for about three years when I left. Yes I went through counselling, both individual counselling and family counselling with my children, prior to leaving and continued for a while after leaving until the counsellor felt the issues had been adequately resolved.

May 2, 2012

If I understand it correctly d-day means the day the spouse discovers their spouse was unfaithful? In which case my ex-wife's d-day would have been during the divorce process when she realised I was serious about marrying my wife and had no intention of reconciling no matter how hard she tried to persuade me otherwise. This was not due to my withholding the information. I told her I had found someone else and gave notice of my intention to leave her and end the marriage a good while before I moved out. She chose not to believe me. She chose not to believe I would leave until I had left. She chose not to believe there was "someone else" until the divorce papers recorded that fact. For a d-day to be successful the message has to be received as well as given.

Radagast, I don't understand your situation where it sounds like you did everything right and yet your exW was still so unreasonable and irrational. If you think there is more there, you might consider starting a thread of your own since you do seem to still have a lot of feelings about your ex. However, when one is open and honest and treats others with kindness and respect, then I think one can be peace. One cannot control how others respond. If you were always open, honest and respectful, then that is a success.

More generally on d-days, while the blow of a d-day may be softened by denial by the BS (not speaking of your case Radagast, speaking of the case where there is deception) I doubt it erases all pain. Maybe in some cases it just suppresses the pain to the level that the BS can deal with at that time. We sometimes hear of extreme cases where BS does great harm to themselves or others with d-day and if some temporary denial is needed to keep that from happening, then I would see that as a self-preservation strategy. If a BS (or AP or WS) chooses to life their life in denial, however, I see that as a negative and missing out on much of life.

Edited May 2, 2012 by woinlove

May 2, 2012

I always thought WS stood for Wesley Snipes.

May 2, 2012

Radagast, I don't understand your situation where it sounds like you did everything right and yet your exW was still so unreasonable and irrational. If you think there is more there, you might consider starting a thread of your own since you do seem to still have a lot of feelings about your ex. However, when one is open and honest and treats others with kindness and respect, then I think one can be peace. One cannot control how others respond. If you were always open, honest and respectful, then that is a success.

More generally on d-days, while the blow of a d-day may be softened by denial by the BS (not speaking of your case Radagast, speaking of the case where there is deception) I doubt it erases all pain. Maybe in some cases it just suppresses the pain to the level that the BS can deal with at that time. We sometimes hear of extreme cases where BS does great harm to themselves or others with d-day and if some temporary denial is needed to keep that from happening, then I would see that as a self-preservation strategy. If a BS (or AP or WS) chooses to life their life in denial, however, I see that as a negative and missing out on much of life.

Radagast makes his first wife sound like the dumbest, most useless woman on the planet earth. I think since we're getting a very biased onesided story of the marriage. Wonder why he ever married such a pathetic dense woman.

May 2, 2012

Alexandria, It is all a matter of justifying bad behavior. Pros call it demonizing.

May 2, 2012

Affairs affect one of every 2.7 couples, according to counselor Janis Abrahms Spring, author of After the Affair,as reported by the Washington Post on March 30, 1999. Ten percent of extramarital affairs last one day, 10 percent last more than one day but less than a month, 50 percent last more than a month but less than a year, but 40 percent last two or more years. Few extramarital affairs last more than four years.
A lesser known fact is that those who divorce rarely marry the person with whom they are having the affair. For example, Dr. Jan Halper’s study of successful men (executives, entrepreneurs, professionals) found that very few men who have affairs divorce their wife and marry their lovers. Only 3 percent of the 4,100 successful men surveyed eventually married their lovers.

Infidelity Statistics

Thank you Donna. i was looking for this study. Also, Dr. Frank Pittman will put it higher, at 25%, or 1 in 4 relationships that started as affairs succeeding but only after the couple has gone for extensive....couples therapy to ensure old patterns do NOT repeat. Dr. Pittman bases his estimation on counseling over 10,000 couples.

And, Dr. Emily Brown who has done extensive research on Split-self affairs also mentions Exit Affairs.

She does believe the marriage is dead, but the leaving partner forgot to inform the spouse. Nevertheless, exit affairees are stil labeled conflict-avoidant by her.

May 2, 2012

I really don't see why an exit affair is different. It's no more justifiable. It's no less scummy a way to treat your partner. Perhaps there are benefits like the BS gets more support than if she were left and there was no betrayal, but in the end it is soul destroying to be cheated on and I'm sure it is damaging to the soul to be in the "illicit relationship" hidden for any length of time at all. So on the whole not better than any other affair. And it need not be more honest. A person can lie to themselves just as much as lying to other's and tell that "lie/truth" to everyone. Doesn't make it true.

Agree. But they are very recognizable for a variety of reasons and should be examined because they have the highest rate of success.

Characteristics include:

Little to NO secrecy. Spouse is informed, new partner is introduced fairly soon to friends and family. Friends and family are supportive.

A plan to divorce is put in place fairly quickly.

This is the marriage that truly was a mistake with both partners so miserable or out of sync and mismatched that everyone is almost relieved for the both of them when it ends. The marriage is long dead-in-the-water waaaay before the new partner is found.

DDay is not characterized by high-drama, anger, betrayal. It is more along the lines of "well....that was inevitable."

Less secrecy, less lies, less betrayal, more surety. These can and do work out well.

May 2, 2012

Agree. But they are very recognizable for a variety of reasons and should be examined because they have the highest rate of success.

Characteristics include:

Little to NO secrecy. Spouse is informed, new partner is introduced fairly soon to friends and family. Friends and family are supportive.

A plan to divorce is put in place fairly quickly.

This is the marriage that truly was a mistake with both partners so miserable or out of sync and mismatched that everyone is almost relieved for the both of them when it ends. The marriage is long dead-in-the-water waaaay before the new partner is found.

DDay is not characterized by high-drama, anger, betrayal. It is more along the lines of "well....that was inevitable."

Less secrecy, less lies, less betrayal, more surety. These can and do work out well.

Am I understanding you correctly, that divorce, and subsequent marraige, can only succeed if both spouses not only give their consent to, but actually embrace, the divorce?

How about the marriage that was a mistake for only ONE partner, who is miserable and unfulfilled? How about the spouse who tried, for years, if not decades, by suggesting MC, by expressing their feelings, by suggesting solutions, etc. to fix what wasn't working for THEM in the marriage, but still felt unhappy and frustrated?

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