Author somedude81 Posted April 27, 2012 Author Posted April 27, 2012 Fine, one exception. Delurking again, SD, to give you an example of a time I think you were lacking empathy. I read a post of yours, a long time ago, where you described telling a girl in one of your classes that you were 21, and how she giggled and said "you're 21?", or something like that. In the post, you mentioned that you were confused by her reaction and weren't sure what it meant. Never happened. I let people guess my age, I don't lie to them about it. Another example is that you basically always describe your interactions with girls as positive, you say things like "she was really having fun, we were laughing a lot", etc. I've never read you saying anything like "she was laughing but I could tell she was bored/uncomfortable/etc". It's your lack of empathy that prevents you from seeing past people's masks of politeness to what they are really feeling, and adjusting your behavior appropriately. Why would somebody be laughing, looking like they are having a good time but really be bored and uncomfortable? That doesn't make any sense. If all your interactions with girls were as positive as you think, you wouldn't be having the issues that you're having. That's because I'm a poor flirt, and can't get girls to think about me in a sexual way. This is why you need friends, because friends provide the sort of social checks and balances that allow you to build up empathy. I know because it wasn't intuitive for me either. The thing is that strangers will never call you on a lack of empathy, because that's just how people are socialized. Friends will. Even the most socially inept friends do this for each other unconsciously. Never in my entire life have I had a friend call me on something like that. Sure they've told me when I said an unkind comment about something too loudly, if that's what you are talking about. Here's a finally example of empathy- I know that it's strange that I stalk your threads even though I'm not part of this community and don't post anywhere else. I know that not because it feels strange to me, but because through empathy I realize that it will look strange to others. I've never even noticed you as a stalker. That's because you only have a few posts in each of my threads and that is completely normal. Though somebody like Teknoe, 3/4ths of his posts are in my threads or directed to me and that is completely creepy.
veggirl Posted April 27, 2012 Posted April 27, 2012 Analyzing SD to death isn't going to work, it's not going to help him progress at all. Everyone gets worked up that he doesn't take the advice offered, but everyone offers the same advice to him over and over and over, not changing the advice or the approach. SD is stubborn as hell, that's for sure. But anyone really interested in helping him surely has gathered that there is a way to talk to him that he responds to and a way that doesnt....? He just wants some direct ideas, not a whole psychological analysis......... (I think) SD I don't think you're as socially retarded as some of these posts people write make you sound. Have you seen the girl again yet? I do think male friends would be helpful for you just cause it'd hopefully put you in more situations where you'd meet girls / work on flirting, but if a girl actually likes you she isn't going to give a crud if you really have friends or not IMO. 1
jobaba Posted April 27, 2012 Posted April 27, 2012 (edited) I have gotten good advice, but I need to make sure to throw away the crap. I'll let you in on a little secret. The best advice is that which works for YOU and only YOU. Of course, everybody here thinks they have the best advice. A woman who has never had trouble getting dates is NOT going to have good dating advice for me, and I would not have good advice for her. The dating game is different for everybody. Would you believe that I was in the same position as you, on a message forum asking advice, years ago? It's true. And those people told me to try and connect with women before making interest known. The WORST advice ever for ME. For another guy, it's probably great advice. Since I've been where you've been, I try and tell you what has worked for me. It seems logical, doesn't it? But only time and ACTION will tell what works for you. Edited April 27, 2012 by jobaba
ThaWholigan Posted April 27, 2012 Posted April 27, 2012 Analyzing SD to death isn't going to work, it's not going to help him progress at all. Everyone gets worked up that he doesn't take the advice offered, but everyone offers the same advice to him over and over and over, not changing the advice or the approach. SD is stubborn as hell, that's for sure. But anyone really interested in helping him surely has gathered that there is a way to talk to him that he responds to and a way that doesnt....? He just wants some direct ideas, not a whole psychological analysis......... (I think) SD I don't think you're as socially retarded as some of these posts people write make you sound. Have you seen the girl again yet? I do think male friends would be helpful for you just cause it'd hopefully put you in more situations where you'd meet girls / work on flirting, but if a girl actually likes you she isn't going to give a crud if you really have friends or not IMO. You're right admittedly, but I am unsure as to how the direct ideas are going to help him, especially if he feels uncomfortable taking direct action. He says he wants to learn how to flirt, but it's not that simple. We can't give him a play-by-play account of how the interaction is going to go. It requires a lot more than telling him almost what to say. I try to fuse both elements together with regards to ideas and analysis, but it's difficult when he doesn't have the tools to carry out what he wants to do and is asking for advice on how to do it. I agree that having friends won't necessarily get him the girl, but it will make it a lot easier in my opinion, as it helped me meet a lot of girls myself, and ease myself into interacting with them easily. 1
ThaWholigan Posted April 27, 2012 Posted April 27, 2012 I'll let you in on a little secret. The best advice is that which works for YOU and only YOU. Of course, everybody here thinks they have the best advice. A woman who has never had trouble getting dates is NOT going to have good dating advice for me, and I would not have good advice for her. The dating game is different for everybody. Would you believe that I was in the same position as you, on a message forum asking advice, years ago? It's true. And those people told me to try and connect with women before making interest known. The WORST advice ever for ME. For another guy, it's probably great advice. Since I've been where you've been, I try and tell you what has worked for me. It seems logical, doesn't it? But only time and ACTION will tell what works for you. Well, this is the thing Jobaba. Your advice is as direct and is the best advice: Action. Frankly if he never followed my advice but ended up getting the girl, I'd be ecstatic. I just want him to take action, any old action. Anything I'm saying in this thread and others is semantics. It doesn't matter in the grand scheme, I just want him to succeed. 2
reallyhotguy Posted April 27, 2012 Posted April 27, 2012 SD, excuse me for being frank, but: the fact that you have no friends and also, have no girlfriend, is not a coincidence. It's the same problem. Your insistence in narrowing the discussion to "only how to be 'good with girls'" -- in other words, your insistence in not confronting the issues -- is what has kept you in the same place for 5 years on LS, and double that in life. The problems are in front of you, either talk about them, or don't. But don't accuse the helpful members of LS of wasting your time. 5
veggirl Posted April 27, 2012 Posted April 27, 2012 You're right admittedly, but I am unsure as to how the direct ideas are going to help him, especially if he feels uncomfortable taking direct action. He says he wants to learn how to flirt, but it's not that simple. We can't give him a play-by-play account of how the interaction is going to go. It requires a lot more than telling him almost what to say. I try to fuse both elements together with regards to ideas and analysis, but it's difficult when he doesn't have the tools to carry out what he wants to do and is asking for advice on how to do it. I agree that having friends won't necessarily get him the girl, but it will make it a lot easier in my opinion, as it helped me meet a lot of girls myself, and ease myself into interacting with them easily. I agree with you 100% on the friend thing. It would do HIM a world of good. I don't think in general it's that big of a deal in dating if a person has loads of friends, but for him it'd put him in new social situations and all that stuff, it'd be good! Yes he does kinda veer into "...and after I say that, then what? okay, and then what?" --def agree with you on that. But there have for sure been times when people give him examples of specific things he could say (when that is what he is asking for) and hell if he doesn't have the confidence to go out and actually say it, that's a whole other issue and he can ask for help on that too if he wants. I don't know why I'm in this thread
Author somedude81 Posted April 27, 2012 Author Posted April 27, 2012 Analyzing SD to death isn't going to work, it's not going to help him progress at all. Everyone gets worked up that he doesn't take the advice offered, but everyone offers the same advice to him over and over and over, not changing the advice or the approach. SD is stubborn as hell, that's for sure. But anyone really interested in helping him surely has gathered that there is a way to talk to him that he responds to and a way that doesnt....? He just wants some direct ideas, not a whole psychological analysis......... (I think) SD I don't think you're as socially retarded as some of these posts people write make you sound. Have you seen the girl again yet? I do think male friends would be helpful for you just cause it'd hopefully put you in more situations where you'd meet girls / work on flirting, but if a girl actually likes you she isn't going to give a crud if you really have friends or not IMO. Thank you veggirl. I don't have any desire to be analyzed and it's definitely not helping. Right now all I wanted were some direct ideas, and I have gotten a few of them but I need to read over this thread again to find them. And no, I haven't seen her since I made this thread. All I'm waiting for is a day when our work schedules coordinate and we both only work part-time. When I see her, I'll be sure to act flirty and look for opportunities to use innuendo. Hopefully I'll ask her out, get a number or do something that shows my interest. SD, excuse me for being frank, but: the fact that you have no friends and also, have no girlfriend, is not a coincidence. It's the same problem. If I've never had friends, or couldn't make female friends, then I'd agree with you. Your insistence in narrowing the discussion to "only how to be 'good with girls'" -- in other words, your insistence in not confronting the issues -- is what has kept you in the same place for 5 years on LS, and double that in life. I completely disagree with you. I've been in the same place for so long because I've lacked focus and haven't addressed the underlying issue of why I do badly with women. Look me in the eye and tell me that learning how to flirt and be more sexual with women is not going to help me.
SmileFace Posted April 27, 2012 Posted April 27, 2012 Look me in the eye and tell me that learning how to flirt and be more sexual with women is not going to help me. "looks directly into my monitor" It is not going to help you . Since you would will have to learn much more before learning that. 3
Teknoe Posted April 27, 2012 Posted April 27, 2012 Well, the more SD posts, the more things he reveals about what he does know and value, and what he doesn't understand and doesn't value. I just read the last 3-4 pages about empathy, friends, etc. and seeing SD shoot down the idea of ever discussing empathy/having friends again. The reason he shoots them down is because they're painful topics to deal with, and it's much easier to sweep them under the rug. It's ironic because the very things he posts in this thread show a gross lack of empathy and understanding. For example, he said something like "How much do you have to disclose in a relationship? D saw me hanging around with acquaintances on campus, but they were just strictly school friends." Basically, he understands having friends is NOT a bad thing, in fact, it could help him look GOOD in front of girls. However, if a girl isn't looking, he could give a damn about having friends, especially male friends. He's trying to lie his way into an intimate relationship, or at the very least, mask some of the shortcomings. It reminds me of the scene from TAKE ME HOME TONIGHT (again, I recommend him viewing that film on Netflix streaming) Sister to brother: I see, so you're going to fake it with your crush, and at the end you're going to take off your mask and go SURPRISE! Here's the real me! Brother to sister: Well... yeah. (note: this scene is only in the deleted scenes DVD) The fact that he's OK with using deception in the relationship context as long as it shifts the favor into his hands says it all. And the fact that he CANNOT see why this is faulty says it all even all the MORE. Finally, you want direct advice SD? Here you go. Next time you see your co worker girl, go up to her and ask her out point blank, "(Name here), may I take you out on a date Saturday night?" Just do it and see where the chips fall. At least with this method you will make your intentions clear and get a yes or no answer... and then you can move on accordingly, either with her if she says yes, or without her if she says no. But delaying and delaying it only prolongs your anxiety and allows a chance for your obsession to grow over her, which can only end up in a bad way as it has for you the last 15 years. CHANGE IT UP! Be direct with her the very next time you see her. Ask her out on a DATE. MAN UP. No more waiting around. Force her to say yes or no and see you as a potential BF, not just a "nice coworker buddy"
sweetjasmine Posted April 27, 2012 Posted April 27, 2012 Everyone gets worked up that he doesn't take the advice offered, but everyone offers the same advice to him over and over and over, not changing the advice or the approach. SD is stubborn as hell, that's for sure. But anyone really interested in helping him surely has gathered that there is a way to talk to him that he responds to and a way that doesnt....? He just wants some direct ideas, not a whole psychological analysis......... (I think) It doesn't matter what the advice is or how it's presented. People have spent years suggesting direct ideas and giving all sorts of advice in all sorts of ways. It's all a futile exercise in getting advice and then meticulously rejecting almost every single bit of it in order to justify the belief that it really is hopeless and that he really is totally and utterly f-ed. 2
marinelife3 Posted April 27, 2012 Posted April 27, 2012 Why would somebody be laughing, looking like they are having a good time but really be bored and uncomfortable? That doesn't make any sense. People do it all the time. That's just the way our society works. They want to be polite, avoid confrontation, not make the other person feel bad, etc. I think most people actually act nice as a reflex, even if they aren't feeling it, and it would take a conscious effort for them to show what they are really feeling. The fact that you don't take it for granted that people do this, at least sometimes, is a problem. It means you can't tell when you're boring a girl unless she makes a point of looking bored. It also means you aren't making the kind of perceptive judgments about the girl that would give you clues to the best way to act around her. For you it seems to be this baffling process where you meet a girl, everything goes fantastic in your perception, and then she rejects you and you can't relate the rejection to any of the social interactions that came before it. If you really don't want to make friends, at least pay closer attention to the girl you're talking to, try to figure out what she's thinking. The problem I think is that dating is not a straightforward process, it involves a lot of subtle nuances of interaction that you have to be pretty alert to- even if it looks like just a drunk girl jumping into a guys arms at the bar, that stuff is still going on. 1
marinelife3 Posted April 27, 2012 Posted April 27, 2012 Look, it's like when you ask someone how they are doing, and they say "I'm fine", but you know they're not fine because they look upset. It's like that, just subtler. 2
Teknoe Posted April 27, 2012 Posted April 27, 2012 It doesn't matter what the advice is or how it's presented. People have spent years suggesting direct ideas and giving all sorts of advice in all sorts of ways. It's all a futile exercise in getting advice and then meticulously rejecting almost every single bit of it in order to justify the belief that it really is hopeless and that he really is totally and utterly f-ed. +1 Also, all he's looking for are people on his side who don't really challenge him but defend him "SD's not so bad. He's a good guy." I'm surprised that HE IS SURPRISED at how people perceive him. He acts as though people's assumptions about him are totally out of left field. It's the things he's wrote time in, time out that lead people to making the educated guesses that they do. If a poster such as SD reveals a lack of empathy shown in his topics time after time -- well then after a while people are going to think "SD... a guy who lacks empathy." There's plenty of evidence that points to SD having certain traits that need some working on. But of course he doesn't want to hear that. He wants the old pat on the shoulder and for people to lie to him that everything's gonna be OK if only he'd keep on going the way he is, without having to change anything. That somehow, he just has had an extreme case of bad luck and that he's ready for dating in any capacity. People do it all the time. That's just the way our society works. They want to be polite, avoid confrontation, not make the other person feel bad, etc. I think most people actually act nice as a reflex, even if they aren't feeling it, and it would take a conscious effort for them to show what they are really feeling. The fact that you don't take it for granted that people do this, at least sometimes, is a problem. It means you can't tell when you're boring a girl unless she makes a point of looking bored. It also means you aren't making the kind of perceptive judgments about the girl that would give you clues to the best way to act around her. For you it seems to be this baffling process where you meet a girl, everything goes fantastic in your perception, and then she rejects you and you can't relate the rejection to any of the social interactions that came before it. If you really don't want to make friends, at least pay closer attention to the girl you're talking to, try to figure out what she's thinking. The problem I think is that dating is not a straightforward process, it involves a lot of subtle nuances of interaction that you have to be pretty alert to- even if it looks like just a drunk girl jumping into a guys arms at the bar, that stuff is still going on. What's alarming is SD admitted in the past he doesn't know how to read women. Yet he constantly contradicts himself whenever he claims "Oh I know she had a good time with me, she was laughing." The fact that someone laughs doesn't mean they're automatically having a "good time." There is such a thing as negative laughter, whether embarrassed, nervous etc. but can be masked to some degree for the sake of trying to be polite. Over 50% of how we communicate is body language. SD obviously struggles at comprehending body language. Again, I believe there's something deeper under the surface here. And because we don't know SD in real life, we can't really help him. If we knew him in real life we could help confirm for him like "Oh yeah, she was laughing when we were all talking but that wasn't a good laugh because ______" Bottom line, until he is more open about seeking real life help, would anyone be shocked if he's in this same exact position this time next year, or the year after that? It's up to him, and right now he's choosing the path of least resistance.... and also least success. 1
veggirl Posted April 27, 2012 Posted April 27, 2012 It doesn't matter what the advice is or how it's presented. People have spent years suggesting direct ideas and giving all sorts of advice in all sorts of ways. It's all a futile exercise in getting advice and then meticulously rejecting almost every single bit of it in order to justify the belief that it really is hopeless and that he really is totally and utterly f-ed. I guess I think it's weird then that people would do that for years if they know they aren't getting through to him. They all must be a lot nicer than I am, I sure as hell wouldn't be doing that
Teknoe Posted April 27, 2012 Posted April 27, 2012 I guess I think it's weird then that people would do that for years if they know they aren't getting through to him. They all must be a lot nicer than I am, I sure as hell wouldn't be doing that Well a lot of people like trying to lift up others, especially when they have once been in that person's shoes before but somehow got up out of the mud. I think 95% of us trying to help SD actually like him. Or at the very least, wants to like him and see him do well in his own life. As I've said many times before, I was once in his shoes (except I had friends and I was very open to learning from those who had more experience than I did) and I also have a 23 year old cousin who SD reminds me a ton of. I love my cousin. I guess it's become an association thing for me. The only reason SD calls me replying to him consistently "creepy" is because A. I'm saying things he doesn't want to deal with (i.e. making friends) B. I have a great memory (it's true, I remember useless facts like nobody's business) and recall what SD's said in the past and can point it out to him. In some way, I'm almost like his friend since I can recall past SD episodes accurately, call him out on it and try to hold him at least 20% accountable. In other words, I'm too close for comfort (not just another anonymous LS poster). Obviously, he enjoys keeping people at a relative distance. Moreso when you try to challenge him for actual growth C. I'm a guy. If I were a good looking girl, I don't think he'd mind as much 1
Feanor Posted April 27, 2012 Posted April 27, 2012 Don't get fixated on some woman from work that you aren't even dating or romantically involved in. If you get the nerve to ask her out then do so, if you're too nervous then just move on. Join an online dating site. Send out tons of messages, it may take a little while to get some responses. It may take a while to actually get a date even up to two months. Set up a date with one of the women, go to a pub or bar for lunch or dinner and drinks. Have a few drinks to relax yourself and have a fun conversation. If it seems she likes you, hold her hand and go for a kiss near the end of the date.
USMCHokie Posted April 27, 2012 Posted April 27, 2012 I guess I think it's weird then that people would do that for years if they know they aren't getting through to him. They all must be a lot nicer than I am, I sure as hell wouldn't be doing that I invited him to a free Vegas trip on multiple occasions...seriously... 4
veggirl Posted April 27, 2012 Posted April 27, 2012 I invited him to a free Vegas trip on multiple occasions...seriously... Now THAT he should do! Although it wouldn't get him a gf. So, maybe not. lol. The socializing aspect might be cool! I don't know. I forgot I was leaving this thread. I am now 1
Meeks7 Posted April 27, 2012 Posted April 27, 2012 (edited) I invited him to a free Vegas trip on multiple occasions...seriously... I remember reading about that. Why hasn't he taken you up on your offer? Speaking of offers, I've also offered him the chance to meet up with my friend's friend who may be able to give him some pointers/tips, but he declined. He did give me the whole "I'll think about it..." spiel before politely declining. The weird thing is, I only offered it to him because he was crying for help in one of his topics. He said something like "What I ABSOLUTELY need is someone to talk to right now." I know a girl friend who has plenty of SoCal connections, particularly professionals who are trained to help hurting people process and find healing, and I offered SomeDude81 exactly what he claimed he "absolutely" needed. So much for "absolutely" as he turned me down and has since not addressed it. For the record, my offer for free help still stands. As a result, from this experience I've had with him, and from hearing about yours Chokie, it's transparent to see real life social interaction is a mental roadblock for him. Because when it comes down to it, he much rather be alone in his apartment where it's safe and comfortable for him. A couple things have been running through my mind in this thread. SomeDude can you answer these questions: 1. SomeDude's 30 and going to school. Part time? Full time? What is your major? 2. You're working part time you said in this thread. What kind of job? 3. Earlier in this thread you mentioned your boss chewing you out in front of the coworker interest. Why did he single you out and do you feel he was justified? Why or why not? 4. How long have you been working at this part time job? 5. How long have you been attending this college? Do you socialize at this college or do you mainly go to classes and then head straight back home? 6. Someone mentioned somewhere you went to junior college in your younger days. What happened during your life between junior college and your current college? In other words, what have you done with your life when you weren't in college between I don't know, ages 22-26, 27? 7. How many jobs have you held and what's the longest you've been at one? Edited April 27, 2012 by Meeks7
Author somedude81 Posted April 28, 2012 Author Posted April 28, 2012 "looks directly into my monitor" It is not going to help you . Since you would will have to learn much more before learning that. Heh, I highly doubt that there are prerequisites in learning how to flirt. People do it all the time. That's just the way our society works. They want to be polite, avoid confrontation, not make the other person feel bad, etc. I think most people actually act nice as a reflex, even if they aren't feeling it, and it would take a conscious effort for them to show what they are really feeling. The fact that you don't take it for granted that people do this, at least sometimes, is a problem. It means you can't tell when you're boring a girl unless she makes a point of looking bored. It also means you aren't making the kind of perceptive judgments about the girl that would give you clues to the best way to act around her. That's all sounding really complicated. It almost sounds like people have on this fake happy face all the time but I just don't see it that way. The almost sounds like the old stereotype of asking a girl what's wrong and she just says "I'm fine." For you it seems to be this baffling process where you meet a girl, everything goes fantastic in your perception, and then she rejects you and you can't relate the rejection to any of the social interactions that came before it.I never think that things are going fantastic. I am 100% aware that I'm not making women attracted to me. There are many times where I wish I knew what to say and that a different guy would be able to handle the situation. If you really don't want to make friends, at least pay closer attention to the girl you're talking to, try to figure out what she's thinking. I'm not saying that I don't. The problem I think is that dating is not a straightforward process, it involves a lot of subtle nuances of interaction that you have to be pretty alert to- even if it looks like just a drunk girl jumping into a guys arms at the bar, that stuff is still going on.And it's something that I need to get a lot more experience with. Look, it's like when you ask someone how they are doing, and they say "I'm fine", but you know they're not fine because they look upset. It's like that, just subtler. Ha! I wrote what I did, before I saw this post. It doesn't matter what the advice is or how it's presented. People have spent years suggesting direct ideas and giving all sorts of advice in all sorts of ways. It's all a futile exercise in getting advice and then meticulously rejecting almost every single bit of it in order to justify the belief that it really is hopeless and that he really is totally and utterly f-ed. Honestly, so much stuff has been said, it's hard to remember what the direct stuff was. Just like this thread, there is so much noise, it's hard to get the message. And I'm trying to keep it on topic, but so many people have their message they want to preach. Don't get fixated on some woman from work that you aren't even dating or romantically involved in. If you get the nerve to ask her out then do so, if you're too nervous then just move on. I'm not fixated on her. She's just the most recent girl I have my eye on. When she rejects me, I'll look at somebody else, and so on. Join an online dating site. Send out tons of messages, it may take a little while to get some responses. It may take a while to actually get a date even up to two months. Set up a date with one of the women, go to a pub or bar for lunch or dinner and drinks. Have a few drinks to relax yourself and have a fun conversation. If it seems she likes you, hold her hand and go for a kiss near the end of the date.From what I've heard about online dating, it's not even worth the effort. Meeks, what's with the 3rd degree?
USMCHokie Posted April 28, 2012 Posted April 28, 2012 Heh, I highly doubt that there are prerequisites in learning how to flirt. Yes, there are. Knowing how to talk sociably in real life to a person you have no interest in is one of them.
Author somedude81 Posted April 28, 2012 Author Posted April 28, 2012 Yes, there are. Knowing how to talk sociably in real life to a person you have no interest in is one of them. Yeah I can do that. So that's a check. Not sure how it's related though. What's next?
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