It feels impossible

[zengirl]

Before we go on, how is empathy even relevant to my situation? When does it start becoming necessary, and when will a girl figure that I'm lacking it, if I am?

 

Empathy is relevant to every human interaction you ever have, from a passing conversation with a stranger to the deepest intimacy one can experience. Empathy impacts our ability to communicate with, attract, understand, and form relationships (all types) with people.

 

You neither have empathy, nor the ability to feign it (which I would never suggest nor give you tips on doing - but some can), so it's going to hinder your interactions with people at all levels.

 

Most of the people who avoid those who lack empathy (which is basically everyone who has empathy) don't actually go around thinking, "Does this person have empathy?" Empathy is one of those things people naturally look for -- without empathy on both sides, I don't think anyone could ever feel a real connection (romantic or otherwise) to another person or form one. As a lack of empathy reveals itself, it usually repels people --- note: this doesn't require they consciously understand that the person has low empathy. It's a natural reaction to the problems low empathy causes. Different people will react to this in different ways and at different times. Some may have more understanding for the lack of social cues that demonstrates a lack of empathy than others; a lot of that depends on how you come off. Even those who have more understanding of those missed social cues almost never want to date such people (this is especially true among women -- women value this subset of social skills in partners even more than men do in most cases; I'm playing with broad strokes there, though).

 

As for D, I was absolutely completely obsessed with her, wanted her more than anything in the entire world. There was no way that I could accept her feelings of not wanting to be with me.

 

Right, that's not seeing her as a person and not having empathy for her. That's not a healthy attachment style. Don't do that again.

 

If this were a one-off thing, I'd not make any predictions about your actual level of empathy. Many people do something like this at one time (generally when very young and immature) -- BUT you consistently show in the things you say that social skills, empathy, and understanding people is a problem for you.

 

I'm still not seeing how needing friends is necessary to get a girl. I see it all the time on forums. Guy and girl meet, they got out a few times, have sex. Then decide if they want a relationship. At what point do their friends come into the picture? For example, if I manage to go out with the girl at my work, do you think she'll want to meet my friends before we have sex?

 

Most people have friends. It may be possible to be a well-adjusted person with good social skills and have no friends, but I have never seen it, and I am fairly certain you are not that exception.

 

It's not like women have set time frames for when they want to meet friends or even when they want to have sex. Most women have 'boiling points' rather than time frames. I will say I have met a guy's friends (some of them) in almost every case before having sex with him, but it was never a 'stepping stone' I considered THAT way. Instead, people with healthy social lives will look for someone else with friends he talks about or hangs out with and will potentially see how you act around her friends, in public, etc. Someone who does not and cannot cultivate friendships will be a less attractive prospect.

 

I can see you already, trying to think of ways to get around, minimize, or hide this aspect of yourself instead of working on it. That sort of thinking is why you consistently fail.

[Els]

Before we go on, how is empathy even relevant to my situation? When does it start becoming necessary.....

 

Always!?!?

[xxoo]

I've been alone basically my entire life and I'm absolutely sick of it. I know there are tons of things that I'm missing out of because I haven't been in a relationship.

 

Does this include friendships? Have you ever had a good friend?

 

There are tons of things that you are missing out of without friends!

[somedude81]

Obviously you don't "see" why empathy or having basic social skills and relationships is necessary to "get a girl." People have spent countless words trying to convince you of it to no avail. So it's probably come to the point where the only remedy would be for you to have a total leap of faith and act as if you believe what everyone has been telling you, even though you really don't. Because it's the truth whether you understand, or accept it or not.

OK, I'm going to make this clear. I don't have a clue what any of you mean by empathy nor do I see how my apparent lack of it is going to have any affect on anything I do.

 

I've read a great deal of threads on this forum, and empathy is never mentioned in any of them.

 

If you "manage to go out with the girl at your work" what makes you think you will EVER have sex with her? You will have to woo her. Even if she is very "easy" sexually, you're going to have to get her to want to do it.

Thank you Captain Obvious.

That's where the social skills come in. Or just having tremendous sex appeal.

Isn't that where flirting and communicating desire comes into play? Social skills isn't the same thing as seduction. I see social skills as what can make people want to be your friend, and I can easily make her into a friend if I wanted to.

 

If she's the type who wants to get to know a guy before boning him, she is going to take how ever long it takes to get to know who you really are. That entire time is a journey without the destination of "sex" or "girlfriend/ boyfriend." It's just sharing who two people are, and any time, either one of them can decide it's not for them and move on.

And again that's all obvious.

 

I was asking how either of our friends come into play.

 

A normal guy has interesting stories and experiences to share involving friends, social events to attend and take her to, friends to introduce her to (even if you do mostly cocoon together for a short stage).

 

All of that comes out naturally in the first few meetings, talking about your life and interests. If it isn't there, that's going to stand out as odd.

Thank you xxoo for something I can actually work with.

 

So she's going to want to hear stories of things I do with my buddies?

 

Introducing her to my friends seems like it would be something that happens later.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Originally Posted by SmileFace

Personally it doesn't seem as if you are looking for a girl friend but someone to complete you.

 

That's completely true.

 

And it's also completely true that NOBODY wants to be the "thing" that completes another person.

 

You might say you wouldn't mind … but the forums that you seem to believe as if they were the word of some god are full of tales of the guys (the same ones who go out a few times, have sex and then decide whether they want a relationship or not) who are running for the hills when that girl goes all "you complete me" on them after the "have sex" part of the story.

[zengirl]

OK, I'm going to make this clear. I don't have a clue what any of you mean by empathy nor do I see how my apparent lack of it is going to have any affect on anything I do.

 

Therein lies the problem

 

I've read a great deal of threads on this forum, and empathy is never mentioned in any of them.

 

This is because most people don't have to 'work on' having empathy, so most people who do have it don't think about it much.

 

Also most people who don't have empathy don't know they don't have it. Some do, and they have a harder road to hoe, with far more problems and struggles in interpersonal relationships --- which almost never come naturally to them and they often don't know why.

[xxoo]

So she's going to want to hear stories of things I do with my buddies?

 

Introducing her to my friends seems like it would be something that happens later.

 

No, it isn't that she wants to hear the stories, necessarily. It is just normal and expected as part of getting to know you. You talk about your life, and that should include friends, family, work, school, etc.

 

Like, I don't necessarily want to hear stories about a guy's job. But if he doesn't have anything to say about work at all, I would definitely wonder if there is a job issue...

[somedude81]

Empathy is relevant to every human interaction you ever have, from a passing conversation with a stranger to the deepest intimacy one can experience. Empathy impacts our ability to communicate with, attract, understand, and form relationships (all types) with people.

 

You neither have empathy, nor the ability to feign it (which I would never suggest nor give you tips on doing - but some can), so it's going to hinder your interactions with people at all levels.

 

Most of the people who avoid those who lack empathy (which is basically everyone who has empathy) don't actually go around thinking, "Does this person have empathy?" Empathy is one of those things people naturally look for -- without empathy on both sides, I don't think anyone could ever feel a real connection (romantic or otherwise) to another person or form one. As a lack of empathy reveals itself, it usually repels people --- note: this doesn't require they consciously understand that the person has low empathy. It's a natural reaction to the problems low empathy causes. Different people will react to this in different ways and at different times. Some may have more understanding for the lack of social cues that demonstrates a lack of empathy than others; a lot of that depends on how you come off. Even those who have more understanding of those missed social cues almost never want to date such people (this is especially true among women -- women value this subset of social skills in partners even more than men do in most cases; I'm playing with broad strokes there, though).

I am still not seeing how I am lacking empathy as the people on this forum are describing it.

 

Do you have any examples? Something that does not relate to D, simply because I was so desperate to get her. Even then I was always trying to make her happy and have a good time when we were together. I cared about her thoughts, feelings and problems. But of course my own took priority. Though the only time they ever conflicted was over the dating issue. And even then I was being very hands off and low pressure with her.

 

 

It's not like women have set time frames for when they want to meet friends or even when they want to have sex. Most women have 'boiling points' rather than time frames. I will say I have met a guy's friends (some of them) in almost every case before having sex with him, but it was never a 'stepping stone' I considered THAT way. Instead, people with healthy social lives will look for someone else with friends he talks about or hangs out with and will potentially see how you act around her friends, in public, etc. Someone who does not and cannot cultivate friendships will be a less attractive prospect.

So she's going to be paying attention to the things I talk about? And that's how she'll know if I have friends or not?

 

When it comes to interacting with her friends, in public, etc I'm not going to have any problems at all. I'm not some anti-social guy who can't talk to anybody.

Does this include friendships? Have you ever had a good friend?

Several.

[zengirl]

SD, To be clear: some people who lack empathy are socio-paths and so forth. I don't think you're in THAT boat, where you can't tell the difference between right and wrong at all, etc.

 

What you can't do is understand people and why they might do what they do. That is a crucial component of empathy. Everyone is boggled by someone at some time, but you are consistently surprised and mystified by people AND you are consistently surprised by people's reactions to things you say (on LS and things you report).

 

Empathy doesn't simply include 'caring' about someone else -- it requires understanding and connecting to them, person to person, and valuing and respecting the totality of who they are, even when that conflicts with your goals.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I give up. Go to a therapist, tell him/ her that you have no concept of empathy and no interest in it unless they can explain exactly how it will enable you to "get" a girl to fill the giant empty space inside of you.

 

Work on that for a while.

 

Or, just stay exactly like you are.

[somedude81]

SD, To be clear: some people who lack empathy are socio-paths and so forth. I don't think you're in THAT boat, where you can't tell the difference between right and wrong at all, etc.

 

What you can't do is understand people and why they might do what they do. That is a crucial component of empathy. Everyone is boggled by someone at some time, but you are consistently surprised and mystified by people AND you are consistently surprised by people's reactions to things you say (on LS and things you report).

Of course I can understand people. And there is also a lot of things I don't understand because I don't have any experience and can't always relate.

 

Once again, can you or anybody else give me some examples of how I've shown a lack of empathy?

 

Empathy doesn't simply include 'caring' about someone else -- it requires understanding and connecting to them, person to person, and valuing and respecting the totality of who they are, even when that conflicts with your goals.

So then your basis about me not having empathy is that I couldn't fully accept that a girl I was obsessed with didn't want to date me? You do know I'm human right and a man?

[reallyhotguy]

Isn't that where flirting and communicating desire comes into play? Social skills isn't the same thing as seduction. I see social skills as what can make people want to be your friend, and I can easily make her into a friend if I wanted to.

 

And again that's all obvious.

 

I was asking how either of our friends come into play.

 

 

Thank you xxoo for something I can actually work with.

 

So she's going to want to hear stories of things I do with my buddies?

 

Introducing her to my friends seems like it would be something that happens later.

So, you look a guy who's successful with women, right? And you ask yourself, "man, what is it about him that makes him so attractive to women?" You might notice that "oh, he's 6'2"", or "oh he has a sweet job", and find those aspects to be relevant. But when you also find that men who are successful with women also have good friends, you discredit it. Maybe you think it's more of an effect than a cause, or maybe you don't understand exactly how it would be relevant, seeing as the girl may never meet or even know about those friends. Yet, the bottom line is that people who are successful with women also have friends.

 

I think it would be good for you to make friends anyway. I know you perseverate on getting a girlfriend, because you don't think you're worthy of happiness until you do. But you would be surprised by how much of that hole in you is companionship, I.e. friendship. People we date are our new friends, we just also perform sex acts with them. They can either be acquaintances (hookups) or close friends (lovers, LTRs). Most of the time spent with a woman is goofing off like you would with a friend. Somedude, if it's so easy as you claim to befriend new women, I suggest you do it today!

[zengirl]

Once again, can you or anybody else give me some examples of how I've shown a lack of empathy?

 

I will actively point out such statements in threads, if you like, but I'm not going to go dig up old ones. There are many. The way you speak about overweight women comes to mind.

[somedude81]

So, you look a guy who's successful with women, right? And you ask yourself, "man, what is it about him that makes him so attractive to women?" You might notice that "oh, he's 6'2"", or "oh he has a sweet job", and find those aspects to be relevant. But when you also find that men who are successful with women also have good friends, you discredit it. Maybe you think it's more of an effect than a cause, or maybe you don't understand exactly how it would be relevant, seeing as the girl may never meet or even know about those friends. Yet, the bottom line is that people who are successful with women also have friends.

 

I think it would be good for you to make friends anyway. I know you perseverate on getting a girlfriend, because you don't think you're worthy of happiness until you do. But you would be surprised by how much of that hole in you is companionship, I.e. friendship. People we date are our new friends, we just also perform sex acts with them. They can either be acquaintances (hookups) or close friends (lovers, LTRs). Most of the time spent with a woman is goofing off like you would with a friend. Somedude, if it's so easy as you claim to befriend new women, I suggest you do it today!

And that's exactly why I don't see the point in having guy friends. I can do everything and more with a girl.

 

One thing I do understand is that I'll need more than one friend. As much as D and I had similar interests, there were things I wanted to do that she didn't. That just means I'd be best for me to have 2-3 girlfriends

 

OK, I'm joking. Once I get my GF, I can put in an active effort to make guy friends and I got a feeling that it would happen once I get a real job.

 

As for why I don't want to make a platonic woman friend now, that's because I'd fall for her, and I don't want to be in that situation again. I'm better off spending my time alone than with a woman who won't return my feelings.

I will actively point out such statements in threads, if you like, but I'm not going to go dig up old ones. There are many.

Fair enough.

The way you speak about overweight women comes to mind.

You do realize that I never talk about overweight women to anybody in real life right?

 

LS is my speaking freely place. And it has helped me learn what subjects are taboo.

[reallyhotguy]

Well, successful dating men have male friends, but I won't belabor that point.

 

Why is it that you don't like guys your age?

[zengirl]

You do realize that I never talk about overweight women to anybody in real life right?

 

LS is my speaking freely place. And it has helped me learn what subjects are taboo.

 

Right, but empathy isn't just about what you say -- it's about what you think. Freely.

[jobaba]

1) There are women who post here who are so emotionally unstable, every relationship is a soap opera. They have used men emotionally, and date (or have dated men) primarily for the way that man makes them feel as opposed to a connection. Does that show empathy? These women have admitted this openly and freely. Such women are swimming with male prospects.

 

2) I will admit it is rare and unusual that you have NO friends. But if that doesn't bother you, it's your life. One of my buddies had to scrap all of his friends because they were a bad influence in terms of partying too much and doing recreational drugs. So, he really doesn't have any friends he hangs out with regularly. Sometimes his GF complains about it, but she still loves him. I mean, I'm his friend, and he has others, but we don't hang out often.

[zengirl]

1) There are women who post here who are so emotionally unstable, every relationship is a soap opera. They have used men emotionally, and date (or have dated men) primarily for the way that man makes them feel as opposed to a connection. Does that show empathy? These women have admitted this openly and freely. Such women are swimming with male prospects.

 

Do those particular actions 'show' empathy? No, but they don't preclude it either. "Having empathy" (the definition we're using, as a social skill; psychological, not moral) at the basest level isn't really about doing the right things or even treating people well; it's merely about understanding - consciously or subconsciously - other people and forming connections with them. Players, who mistreat women, often DO have empathy, though they mis-use it. To play a woman requires a basic understanding of her. Without empathy, you cannot successfully manipulate another person, but that doesn't mean being manipulative is a good way of 'demonstrating empathy' per se.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about "using" someone primarily for the way that makes them feel -- if a woman said that and seemed to view the man as an object, she would perhaps be someone to signal out for low/no empathy -- but your description otherwise doesn't suggest that. Loving drama and cultivating it in STRs speaks to some personal problems, but not a lack of empathy.

 

2) I will admit it is rare and unusual that you have NO friends. But if that doesn't bother you, it's your life. One of my buddies had to scrap all of his friends because they were a bad influence in terms of partying too much and doing recreational drugs. So, he really doesn't have any friends he hangs out with regularly. Sometimes his GF complains about it, but she still loves him. I mean, I'm his friend, and he has others, but we don't hang out often.

 

Not hanging out with your friends all the time and not having them are very different things. Many people don't have time to hang with their friends and yet still maintain connections. At any rate, social skills are only gained through socializing. Pretty much all the social skills required for dating (not skills like how to kiss properly, etc, but those are not social skills) can be gained through socializing and befriending people. Flirting perhaps cannot, but flirting is actually not always required (helpful, but I've seen LOADS of people find Rs who can't flirt worth a damn).

[xxoo]

Once I get my GF, I can put in an active effort to make guy friends and I got a feeling that it would happen once I get a real job.

 

Wouldn't it be far easier to make some guy friends first? Then you would at least have one of the two goals down, you'd have some companionship, and it would help you on the road to getting a gf.

[jobaba]

 

I'm not sure what you mean about "using" someone primarily for the way that makes them feel -- if a woman said that and seemed to view the man as an object, she would perhaps be someone to signal out for low/no empathy -- but your description otherwise doesn't suggest that. Loving drama and cultivating it in STRs speaks to some personal problems, but not a lack of empathy.

 

 

It means dating a handsome guy makes you feel pretty, dating a rich guy makes you feel special, etc, etc.

[zengirl]

It means dating a handsome guy makes you feel pretty, dating a rich guy makes you feel special, etc, etc.

 

It depends on what they said and how they reacted is my point -- the fact that they like dating handsome or rich men says nothing about their empathy levels.

[jobaba]

Honest advice for SD81...

 

If you TRULY, HONESTLY want to get a woman, one of the best things you could honestly do is get the h@ll off this forum. Despite the fact that you entertain me and I root for you, it is not helping. And I DO think you are a REAL PERSON (haha) and a pretty decent guy.

 

Not only has the advice of the people here not helped you over the last 5 years, you've wasted a LOT of time on here that could have been spent improving yourself, or chasing women.

 

Being on a dating site forum for a guy like you is being like a poor kid from a poor neighborhood who drives in the suburbs and gets to see how all the rich kids play ... in a clean park with no worries of drugs or gangs.

 

People here talk about how many dates they have, how many attractive men they've rejected, how such and such trivial thing was a dealbreaker, and how they are so successful at dating they are able to pick one small subset of one ethnic or racial group and dig that mine only.

 

Nothing against those people, but it's not the type of thing that is productive to a guy like you.

 

My opinion...

[MrNate 2.0]

All of these people gave phenomenal advice in here.

 

You have more than enough to work with somedude.

 

I don't know if it's your pride or whatever, getting in the way, but man, you need to start doing things.

 

You're searching for an answer you will never find. Not because it exists, but simply because you don't want to accept it.

 

(Hint: There's now 17 pages of answers and counting.)

[marinelife3]

Delurking again, SD, to give you an example of a time I think you were lacking empathy. I read a post of yours, a long time ago, where you described telling a girl in one of your classes that you were 21, and how she giggled and said "you're 21?", or something like that. In the post, you mentioned that you were confused by her reaction and weren't sure what it meant.

 

Basically, if you were using empathy, you would of been able to put yourself in her shoes and see things from her perspective- which is that she could tell you were in fact older then 21, but wasn't going to challenge you directly on it because that would be rude, so instead she giggled.

 

Another example is that you basically always describe your interactions with girls as positive, you say things like "she was really having fun, we were laughing a lot", etc. I've never read you saying anything like "she was laughing but I could tell she was bored/uncomfortable/etc". If all your interactions with girls were as positive as you think, you wouldn't be having the issues that you're having. It's your lack of empathy that prevents you from seeing past people's masks of politeness to what they are really feeling, and adjusting your behavior appropriately.

 

This is why you need friends, because friends provide the sort of social checks and balances that allow you to build up empathy. I know because it wasn't intuitive for me either. The thing is that strangers will never call you on a lack of empathy, because that's just how people are socialized. Friends will. Even the most socially inept friends do this for each other unconsciously.

 

Here's a finally example of empathy- I know that it's strange that I stalk your threads even though I'm not part of this community and don't post anywhere else. I know that not because it feels strange to me, but because through empathy I realize that it will look strange to others.

[somedude81]

Do those particular actions 'show' empathy? No, but they don't preclude it either. "Having empathy" (the definition we're using, as a social skill; psychological, not moral) at the basest level isn't really about doing the right things or even treating people well; it's merely about understanding - consciously or subconsciously - other people and forming connections with them. Players, who mistreat women, often DO have empathy, though they mis-use it. To play a woman requires a basic understanding of her. Without empathy, you cannot successfully manipulate another person, but that doesn't mean being manipulative is a good way of 'demonstrating empathy' per se.

Hold up, wait a minute!

 

All this "empathy" stuff just means understanding people and knowing how they work?

 

Why not just say that in the first place?!

 

My God, you were making it seem like the most complicated thing in the world and like I was some kind of psycho for not having empathy.

 

BTW, the actual definition of empathy is

 

the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.

 

 

 

Not hanging out with your friends all the time and not having them are very different things. Many people don't have time to hang with their friends and yet still maintain connections. At any rate, social skills are only gained through socializing. Pretty much all the social skills required for dating (not skills like how to kiss properly, etc, but those are not social skills) can be gained through socializing and befriending people. Flirting perhaps cannot, but flirting is actually not always required (helpful, but I've seen LOADS of people find Rs who can't flirt worth a damn).

Honest advice for SD81...

 

If you TRULY, HONESTLY want to get a woman, one of the best things you could honestly do is get the h@ll off this forum. Despite the fact that you entertain me and I root for you, it is not helping.

I'm start to get that too.

 

This whole empathy discussion was a total waste of my time. It was really causing me to start doubting myself and now that I see it was over nothing at all.

 

I only post on this forum when I'm bored and have nothing better to do. Though at least it's more productive than playing video games.

Not only has the advice of the people here not helped you over the last 5 years, you've wasted a LOT of time on here that could have been spent improving yourself, or chasing women.

I have gotten good advice, but I need to make sure to throw away the crap.

 

And no offense to Zengirl, but telling me that people can get into a relationship without flirting is crappy advice for me.

 

Being on a dating site forum for a guy like you is being like a poor kid from a poor neighborhood who drives in the suburbs and gets to see how all the rich kids play ... in a clean park with no worries of drugs or gangs.

 

People here talk about how many dates they have, how many attractive men they've rejected, how such and such trivial thing was a dealbreaker, and how they are so successful at dating they are able to pick one small subset of one ethnic or racial group and dig that mine only.

 

Nothing against those people, but it's not the type of thing that is productive to a guy like you.

That's why I tend to only focus on a few themes and ignore everything else.

All of these people gave phenomenal advice in here.

 

You have more than enough to work with somedude.

 

I don't know if it's your pride or whatever, getting in the way, but man, you need to start doing things.

 

You're searching for an answer you will never find. Not because it exists, but simply because you don't want to accept it.

 

(Hint: There's now 17 pages of answers and counting.)

And most of it is worthless discussing of nonsense topics.

Frankly all I wanted to focus on, is how I can improve my pursuit of women. That's it.

 

I'm not going to be addressing any further posts about empathy or friendship.