Fiancé owes me money, need some perspective

April 23, 2012

My marriage was like what you have set up. We didn't have a joint account and split bills. It doesn't work. If you live together and are getting married everything should be shared. If you aren't willing to do that then there is no reason to marry this woman.

April 23, 2012

"For the record," since they are cohabitating, that's the same exact thing, not one iota different other than she may be wearing a ring.

A relationship that is leading towards not eventual but impending marriage is very different from a BF/GF relationship not only IMO but in the eyes of many. It's not the same thing. I'm not suggesting that a 50/50 split is even "wrong" in a marriage. It isn't my idea of any kind of a marriage to be so worried about such things and "owe" each other money, but as LT says, some do that. And they're entitled to their way. Pierre is also entitled to his opinion that the way is petty. Personally, I wouldn't go that far, but I see the perspective. I also would be very frustrated if my SO said he was going to pay for something and then just blew it off, regardless of a 50/50 split, so I don't think the 50/50 split is necessarily the issue here.

I saw that quirk too. Could it be that there is more to it, and if you sat down with OP he could likely explain it in 30 seconds? but that explanation would take a huge wall o text to type out here? Focusing on that little tangent of minutiae rather than OP's main point and question is just so "Loveshack" isn't it?

Could be any number of things, but unless I know what they are, I cannot know what they are. *shrugs* To me, his mindset, as he explained it on that, seemed odd. He essentially turned down $300 she offered to pay him back -- almost the full sum she owes for the mattress -- because he didn't like the WAY it would be paid back. That, to me, seems small or petty, but you can view it as simply a quirk if you choose.

April 23, 2012

PF if you insist on marrying this woman, at least wait for this. I imagine theres no way youre going to sell the tv to get your money back. She knows where her money is going, she just doesnt want to tell you. Thats the "oh yeah"... She does not plan on paying you back, she knew you would trust her. From this point on, you have to put your foot down. As an experiment to see her behavior, If you go shopping with her, get cash from her first, or dont buy food. If you want to buy something over a couple hundred dollars, get her half cash first, or tell her you wont buy it.

If her intentions arent right, you will see her behavior towards you change if she cant take advantage of you. Then you can have the talk. And dont get a joint account until you can feel like you can trust her, because it sounds like she will keep your joint account in the red. Does she frequently spend extra money on things other than the essentials? Are you entirely sure she isnt in a mass of credit card debt, that she hasnt divulged to you yet?

April 23, 2012

A cohabitating couple is different from a married or soon to be married couple only in the lack of a contract with the state, and certainly not in any way related to financial arrangements other than applicable state law governing property in marriage.

The day-to-day "who pays and how much?" financial issues are no different between a married, engaged and cohabitating couple.

April 23, 2012

A cohabitating couple is different from a married or soon to be married couple only in the lack of a contract with the state, and certainly not in any way related to financial arrangements other than applicable state law governing property in marriage.

The day-to-day "who pays and how much?" financial issues are no different between a married, engaged and cohabitating couple.

Yes, they are, in most cases. In most cases, people join money, partially or totally, when they marry or plan to marry. This is not done nearly as frequently when people are cohabitating with no intent to marry.

ETA: In Pierre's worldview, it seems petty to consider money "yours" in such a relationship instead of "ours." I would think so to a milder degree than him -- I think for the first few years of marriage, some degree of yours and mine still exists, but it fades over time, as that's the personal philosophy I take, but I can easily see that most marriages are predicated on the idea of "yours" and "mine" being totally eliminated in favor of "ours." Of course, everyone has a different sort of idea of marriage -- that's just the most common.

Edited April 23, 2012 by zengirl

April 23, 2012

Yes, they are, in most cases. In most cases, people join money, partially or totally, when they marry or plan to marry. This is not done nearly as frequently when people are cohabitation with no intent to marry.

Once more, as far as day-to-day finances, there is absolutely no difference between marrieds and those cohabitating as it bears on OP's financial issues with his GF/fiance. NONE. Moreover, many cohabitants pool resources, don't, mingle, keep separate, just like there is an infinite variety of how marrieds handle their finances.

Trying to condition how couples who live together do or should handle finances on state involvement alone (marriage) in an effort to somehow make OP look "not a team player" is ridiculous.

April 23, 2012

Once more, as far as day-to-day finances, there is absolutely no difference between marrieds and those cohabitating as it bears on OP's financial issues with his GF/fiance. NONE. Moreover, many cohabitants pool resources, don't, mingle, keep separate, just like there is an infinite variety of how marrieds handle their finances.

Trying to condition how couples who live together do or should handle finances on state involvement alone (marriage) in an effort to somehow make OP look "not a team player" is ridiculous.

You misnamed the union by calling it BF/GF. The misnomer was relevant, IMO. I am entitled to that opinion, and you've not given any real reason why the misnomer is meaningless. There is a major social difference between a fiancee and a GF and a legal and social difference between cohabitation and marriage. It still remains. If it did not, marriage would no longer exist.

I'm not trying to condition how couples who live together "should" handle finances. I think it's perfectly fine to state how they typically do so. And I think it's fine to find certain ways of handling finances petty, if you so choose. I don't find the OP particularly petty --- but I am still confused as to how any one you intend to marry could "owe" you money. I get that they seemingly agreed to this, and if that is so, that puts her solidly in the wrong. I don't know, of course, whose idea the bed or TV was at first or how the relationship dynamic works or what was said, etc, which are all valid questions that have been raised in this thread.

I think pretty everyone seeks to simplify issues like these, but they're generally complicated. Wherever relationships meet money, they become complicated. People too often fail to discuss these dynamics thoroughly and openly and wind up with miscommunications and problems, re: Money.

April 23, 2012

OP, I find the "oh yeah" and the sad look thing puzzling (as I'm sure you do, too). Is your fiancee generally conflict-avoidant in this way? Do you normally have good communication?

Because, while I understand the points people are making about ultimately joining finances, and so forth, I do think that there's a more important psychological thing going on here. I guess I'm wondering, since you know her and we don't, what YOU think is going on with her. Why won't she face this?

Along a similar vein, I happen to think that the fact that you did insist on paying back the $300 in a very specific accountable way IS significant. But what it signifies is unclear - is that just how you've always wanted to settle debts (very specifically, with very clear accounting?) Or was it just in this case, because you felt somehow like you wanted to set an example for her?

I don't think it was wrong that you did that, but clearly, she was making an offer to settle at least part of what she owes by saying you could just take it out of the debt - and yet you didn't want to do that. So what that says to me, an outside observer, is that she struggles with dealing with financial stuff (avoidant), and that it's not that she wants you to pay for everything but more that she has difficulty bringing herself to deal with it. And that you two have very different styles when it comes to dealing with the stressful issue of money - and you don't understand one another very well on that point.

She still needs to deal with this - it's not OK for her to promise to pay for things and then just not do it. That's immature. But I also think that, since you know and love her, you must on some level be aware that this kind of financial accounting stresses her out and she tends to be avoidant - therefore, perhaps you could also bend, by allowing her to erase the debt in a way that's less stressful to her, when the situation arises. Such as a chance for her to just eat your share of something, like that $300, instead of insisting that it be paid back and thus added back to her debt.

People react oddly to money issues sometimes. That doesn't mean she shouldn't woman up a bit and handle that, but it does mean that you could see things in a slightly different light, too - if you understand why she's stressed out about this stuff, perhaps you'll have more success at helping her to face it too.

Edited April 23, 2012 by serial muse

April 23, 2012

This isn't a money issue. It's about broken commitments and promises. I'd be beating a track away from marriage.

April 23, 2012

I'm obviously not the only one who thinks that. Her rush to judgment and choice of words were quite inflammatory, and not what most people would except from someone who views marriage as anything less than a partnership.

Besides, did you even bother to notice that said poster agreed with me that she's not marriage material?

Have a nice day!

Yeap, I'm not "marriage material" I'm not willing to feed & house divorced Daddies simply because they slip me the sausage occasionally, I'm not willing to give up one thin dime or a single hour of my time to care take for any man's pre-existing children. I have a name & it isn't "Gravy Train"

OP needs to get this straightened out ASAP as it would appear this young woman thinks his name is "Gravy Train" and is checking to see if he'll put up with it.

Edited April 23, 2012 by soserious1

April 24, 2012

Jeez, you guys are roommates, not partners. Do you plan to keep up this bean counting after you get married? I would not tolerate this from my partner. We have a joint account for shared expenses (furniture, groceries, travel), we both put in what we can and don't sweat the rest of it.

It sounds to me like your girlfriend is trying to establish a more committed/integrated partnership, and you are digging in your heels. Are you sure you want to get married?

April 24, 2012

Jeez, you guys are roommates, not partners. Do you plan to keep up this bean counting after you get married? I would not tolerate this from my partner. We have a joint account for shared expenses (furniture, groceries, travel), we both put in what we can and don't sweat the rest of it.

It sounds to me like your girlfriend is trying to establish a more committed/integrated partnership, and you are digging in your heels. Are you sure you want to get married?

"a more committed/integrated partnership" ? LOL funny how she's trying to do that at the OP's expense isn't it.

If you were my partner & telling me you expected me to pay for the bulk of our shared expenses & that you wouldn't tolerate otherwise you'd be told not to let the door hit you in the arse on the way out of it.

April 24, 2012

It sounds to me like your girlfriend is trying to establish a more committed/integrated partnership, and you are digging in your heels. Are you sure you want to get married?

It sounds to me like OP's GF is trying to establish a "gentleman tax" type of relationship where she gets to spend most of her money on whatever she wants while he is stuck paying a lion's share of the couple's joint expenses, TVs, beds, groceries, basically anything she can get out of paying half for by playing dumb and innocent or just refusing to live up to her word.

No, I've never seen -anything- like this before in my relationships, or my friends' relationships and marriages.

Dig those heels OP.

April 24, 2012

It sounds to me like OP's GF is trying to establish a "gentleman tax" type of relationship where she gets to spend most of her money on whatever she wants while he is stuck paying a lion's share of the couple's joint expenses, TVs, beds, groceries, basically anything she can get out of paying half for by playing dumb and innocent or just refusing to live up to her word.

No, I've never seen -anything- like this before in my relationships, or my friends' relationships and marriages.

Dig those heels OP.

When you are in a serious partnership, not just dating, there is no "yours" and "mine." Everything I have is my partner's, and everything he has is mine. If we want to buy something that would cut into our finances in a way that would stop the other person from having something they wanted, we would discuss first and come to a mutual agreement on it.

This "my half" **** doesn't even make sense to me.

April 24, 2012

When you are in a serious partnership, not just dating, there is no "yours" and "mine." Everything I have is my partner's, and everything he has is mine. If we want to buy something that would cut into our finances in a way that would stop the other person from having something they wanted, we would discuss first and come to a mutual agreement on it.

This "my half" **** doesn't even make sense to me.

Oh but there's been "discussion" in the OP's situation, she agreed to pay half of these expenses, no she's not paying & merely gives the OP sad puppy eyes & says "oh well" when he mentions it.

April 24, 2012

A cohabitating couple is different from a married or soon to be married couple only in the lack of a contract with the state, and certainly not in any way related to financial arrangements other than applicable state law governing property in marriage.

The day-to-day "who pays and how much?" financial issues are no different between a married, engaged and cohabitating couple.

I disagree:

Cohabitation is cohabitation and the marriage papers make no difference on how you sleep next to each other, how you cook diner, or how you brush your teeth.

This is not about marriage or state laws.

Couples that are truly in love and committed to each other tend to have a "ours" philosophy rather than an anal and petty 50/50 arrangement where each other keeps score.

April 24, 2012

If you were my partner & telling me you expected me to pay for the bulk of our shared expenses & that you wouldn't tolerate otherwise you'd be told not to let the door hit you in the arse on the way out of it.

If you are selfish and not willing to share then I RECOMMEND YOU to stay single.

The ME, ME, ME philosophy only works when you are single.

April 24, 2012

If you are selfish and not willing to share then I RECOMMEND YOU to stay single.

The ME, ME, ME philosophy only works when you are single.

The guilt & shame tactic won't work on me Pierre, I pay my own way 100% of the time, expecting an able bodied male partner to do the same is not "selfish"

And yes, I do have the right to say that the things I earn are MINE & no I'm not interested in sharing them with some divorced daddy who's so broke from supporting his crotch droppings that he can't even manage to pay his rent & buy groceries all in the same month. My home is not the local welfare office & any man who mistakes it for such is in for a rude awakening.

Edited April 24, 2012 by soserious1

April 24, 2012

Broken promises and crappy financial management. This does not sound like good partner material unless you want to spend your life with someone who can't keep promises and is more than happy to spend what she AND you have earned.

"Wife, you promised to take the kids to the birthday party."

*sad look* "Sorry Husband, I was too busy watching my soap opera."

Like I said previously, run away!

April 24, 2012

Couples that are truly in love and committed to each other tend to have a "ours" philosophy rather than an anal and petty 50/50 arrangement where each other keeps score.

Bizarro. Couple agrees to buy a bed and tv that guy can't afford by himself. They agree to split the costs so they can afford it, she completely reneges and leaves him paying the whole thing. There's nothing anal or petty about expecting someone to keep their word, especially when it is relied on.

Couple agrees to split grocery bills. He ends up buying most/all the groceries. There's nothing anal or petty about expecting her to share the expenses SHE AGREED TO SHARE.

Keeping one's word to one's partner and simple fairness trumps some touchy feely notion of "love conquers all" where finances are concerned. Characterizing OP as anal or petty is beyond ridiculous here.

Though it hasn't been outright expressed, there's lots of presumption of "man is supposed to pay because he's a man" subtext in this thread. Don't buy it OP, it's 2012, make this freeloader step to or show her the door. The days of "teeheehee, oh you really meant it when we agreed to pay half??" are over as in O-ver.

April 24, 2012

And yes, I do have the right to say that the things I earn are MINE & no I'm not interested in sharing them with some divorced daddy who's so broke from supporting his crotch droppings that he can't even manage to pay his rent & buy groceries all in the same month. My home is not the local welfare office & any man who mistakes it for such is in for a rude awakening.

Oops, I thought you were a man. I agree with you. Your stuff is yours!

I am "old school" and I like to financially support my wife or partner. Any money she makes she can spend on her own. I take care of the rest.

April 24, 2012

I am "old school" and I like to financially support my wife or partner. Any money she makes she can spend on her own. I take care of the rest.

So because you are "old school" means everyone else has to be too? Are people not free to establish their own parameters of their relationships? or must they confirm to the Pierre credo?

You really showed your hand here. Just come out and admit that you think OP should pay because he is the man and spare further rationalizations re: petty, selfish, anal. It's because he's the man that he should pay, in your opinion, right?

April 24, 2012

Oops, I thought you were a man. I agree with you. Your stuff is yours!

I am "old school" and I like to financially support my wife or partner. Any money she makes she can spend on her own. I take care of the rest.

Pierre, I don't expect any man to pay my expenses, in fact all I'd expect a male partner to "share" generously with me is the 5-8 inches of yummy meat stick he's gotten tucked away beneath the zipper of his pants.

This is 2012, I have a great job, expecting a guy to pay any of my expenses is totally out of the question.

April 24, 2012

Oops, I thought you were a man. I agree with you. Your stuff is yours!

I am "old school" and I like to financially support my wife or partner. Any money she makes she can spend on her own. I take care of the rest.

That breeds financial irresponsibility long term in that person. They spend more money than they earn/have. You really shouldn't do that.

April 24, 2012

When you are in a serious partnership, not just dating, there is no "yours" and "mine." Everything I have is my partner's, and everything he has is mine. If we want to buy something that would cut into our finances in a way that would stop the other person from having something they wanted, we would discuss first and come to a mutual agreement on it.

This "my half" **** doesn't even make sense to me.

I don't get it either!

It seems to me that everyone thinks in terms of tit for tat these days: you can't expect something from a partner if you don't have it yourself - whether that's good looks, a six pack, good job, a house, money etc

Whatever happened to teamwork? Pooling resources and making the most of each individual's strengths? Give and take? Accepting someone for who they are and forgiving imperfections because they have great things to offer that make up for what they don't have? Supporting one another - whether that's physically, emotionally or financially?

In my view, when two people are committed to one another they become a team.

Two individuals living together but keeping everything separate are flatmates and nothing more - flatmates who have sex perhaps but still flatmates. It is impossible in a committed long term relationship to define what belongs to whom when you are sharing lives - that's why there are laws that govern splitting of assets when a marriage or long term cohabitation comes to an end.

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Fiancé owes me money, need some perspective

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