aussie mum Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 Hi, I am a married (12 years) mother of 5 whose world came crashing down at the beginningof this year when after a drunken night awoke to my husband and my married bestfriend mutually masterbating eachother. When I confronted him he confessed that they had been doing this 'stuff' maybe 4 or 5 times and it had never gone any further than touching and kissing (this seems an important distinction 4 him) when they had been drinking. He was extremely sorry for his actions (as was she, both saying that they didn't quite understand why it happened and that under no circumstances would it happen again) We had many indepth discussions through which I had felt really close to him, and while I have had my meltdowns I felt that I was coping remarkably well. I did (still do) feel that I have no right to stop their friendship and it has taken lots of time and jealous moments (they text/talk/catch up daily) and as niave as it may come across I do believe that they are not persuing a sexual relationship, however there have been times that he has seen her and not told me (I discover this through intuition and questioning him). He no longer deletes her messages and is getting better at full disclosure. My trust levels are still questionable but I am consciously trying. Our families are closley entwined and I have a close relationship with the husband and her. Our children are all very close and we continually run in the same circles. All this was working well enough for me and I was able to just enjoy being altogether, starting to feel more secure in the relationships BUT last night (for the third time since the incident) my husband has said while cuddling in bed I love you Sarah (her name not mine). This is not good for me or my stability. He doesn't understand why this happens and today I feel broken. I don't know what to do anymore.
stillafool Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 You are a better woman than me. I would never speak to either of them again. 3
Feelin Frisky Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 My sympathies. Obviously at least he has fallen for her and given that she lends herself to sexual gratification with him, it is likely that there is more to it that strict and confined expressions of sexual wantonness toward each other. More often than not this provides grounds for a break up. But not always. There are such things as open marriages and couples who permit such things. Go so far as to say he loves her accidentally when he's with you is something you'll have to work out. Does he really still love you first and foremost? Do you accept polyamory? What are your tolerance levels and alternatives? Can you engage your husband in honest conversation and get the real truth out of him and live with it? Most Americans can't handle that kind of stuff but people have lived that way eons ago and some cultures still permit it. Are you a rural Australian where civilization isn't on top of you and you can accept so manner of polyamory? Or are you a city-dweller and subject to gossip if not laws and prying third parties who will force your hand more than what might be true of an isolated region?
Wanderer25 Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 tell her husband. he should be working on the trust issues. Not you. Both of them crossed the line. They are the ones that should re-adjust their boundaries.
Artie Lang Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 you mean, they're still in communication with each other?! not good.....not good at all. he, nor you, can ever be friends with this woman, ever again. furthermore, her husband has a right to know. you can't keep this from him you are being extremely passive, given the current circumstances. these are grave errors on your part for not putting your foot down, when it comes to NC: and keeping this under wraps, in regards to exposure. no matter how they're spinning this, there is waaay more to this they're not telling you. BELIEVE IT! i suggest you get right to work on these things i've touched upon-- PRONTO! 2
maybealone Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 Four or five times does not qualify for not being able to "quite understand why it happened." I did (still do) feel that I have no right to stop their friendship and it has taken lots of time and jealous moments (they text/talk/catch up daily) I don't know any guys that text/talk/catch up daily with their male buddies, so I don't see why this is a necessary component of your husband and best friend continuing a friendship. Personally, I don't think they have a "right" to remain friends, but if they are going to continue a friendship, that friendship needs to have very strict boundaries. As for your original question on what the "I love yous" mean, did he ever make that error before he started doing sexual acts with her? If not, then I think that's at least part of your answer.
Try Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 You are a better woman than me. I would never speak to either of them again. How does being a rub sweeper make her a better woman than you? It does not. She is allowing her husband and so called best friend to cheat while doing nothing to stop them. They are already in love so the situation will only get worse. If not divorce, then there should be full not contact at a minimum.
Try Posted April 23, 2012 Posted April 23, 2012 (edited) @aussie mum: Have you told your so called best friend's husband? If not then you are no more a real friend to him than the other woman ("OW") is to you. He has a right to know. He has right to try to defend his marraige. Unless you tell him right now, then he will rightfully view you as a protector of the affair and as an enemy to his marraige. Your husband is already in love with the OW. He says I love you to her so often that he sometimes says her name when he says it to you. Every day that you allow their relationship to continue, the stronger that love will get. Having sex with each other while you were right there asleep, is one of the most hurtful (to you) things that I have every heard about. This shows a complete lack of respect for you by either one of them. The only chance that you have for your marraige, if you would even want to save it, is to demand full no contact forever with the OW and to tell the OW's husband right now without telling her or your husband that you are going to do so. Edited April 23, 2012 by Try 1
Author aussie mum Posted April 24, 2012 Author Posted April 24, 2012 Thanks for your thought provoking ideas. I don't yet know how to navigate this system properly so you will need to bear with me while I respond long hand. 1. I don't feel like a better woman - I am trying to hold together my marriage. The other family involved are long time friends that I had thought would be friends forever - to a point of exclusion of our other friends. Previous to me finding out, I was in a very happy, secure place within the boundries of our box. Both my BF and her husband do a lot to support me - 5 young children, a job and a husband that works long hours make it difficult to do on my own. Her husband and I particularly spend a lot of time together as we are both the main carers (sporting coaches etc) and my H and BF are very similar in terms of working hours and self orientation. Do I find her husband attractive? To a degree. We have always had a very easy relationship and I feel very safe with him. 2. I have not told her husband, I do not think this is my place - I am aware that this contravines friendship but I know that he would not cope with the revelation and I guess on some level I am aware that by telling him I would lose him too. I had felt that I was protecting him. He knows that I don't believe the version of events that he was told. He has not questioned me further and I think that is because he is not yet ready to know. I did tell him (and this I would do) if anything happened down the track and I knew I would tell him. He was, however, the first person I wanted to run to when this happened (Which I couldn't as we were on holidays and he was not) I believe that it needs to come from his wife or my husband. I am aware that if he ever found out he would now have every right to feel angry and betrayed by me - but I do think he would understand my decision. He knows me very well. 3. I guess my instinct is that my H is in love with my BF though he insists he does not want to leave me to be with her. He doesn't understand why these words come out and I am now pressing him to have some counselling and figure it all out. Until he understands it, I have no guarantee that it won't happen again (the I love you Sarah bit) I do believe that there is nothing more sexually happening as he devastated at the hurt he has inflicted upon me. He insists they are good friends and that he has never had a friend that supports him the way that she does. again, they are very similar personalities. 4. A little bit of background - we live in a small town. The last thing I want, or need is for my life to be gossiped about. I don't want peoples sympathy. I am a teacher at the local school, which all our children attend. My husband owns and runs a successful building company. We married at 21 and were together since high school. He was very inexperienced sexually and we were each others firsts. I am not good at failure. The community believes I am superwoman who has it all together. That I live a busy but charmed existance. The reality is obviously quite a different story. 5. The reason I have not demanded full no contact is that I am not his keeper. I am his wife. There is a distinct difference. I am not a under-the-rug sweeper either, I just don't need to broadcast the finer details of my life. I have asked for full disclosure - knowing when they have seen eachother and to have access to his phone at my discretion. I feel that if there is nothing to hide then this shouldn't be an issue. I have no problem letting either of them know that I have seen her husband. 6. I don't know that I am 'crazy naive' I will however read the suggested article and reserve judgement. 7. Maybealone, it only started post sexual activity. Not ever happened in our marriage before. I like (and agree) with your points. I have already put this to him. Part of my answer how? 8. Feelin frisky - I may have answered some of your questions already. While it is not a path I thought my life would ever go down, I have of course considered the possibilities. The issue with this is that it is one in all in and I cannot be the spokesperson for the OH who, in past conversations with me alluded to not being able to cope with that sort of arrangement whatsoever. I am not sure that my husband knows the honest truth. He believes that all he wants is me, that his future is with me etc, but I obviously think that there is more to it. He was never bought up to question feelings or thoughts or situations. He doesn't have an understanding of psychology, or agree that talking about what it may or may not mean helps. I believe that he loves me. I like the different perspective you gave me (better than be slammed!) Thanks. I do appreciate all your responses and please keep them coming. Nothing is ever black and white huh.
Artie Lang Posted April 24, 2012 Posted April 24, 2012 DENIAL! DENIAL! DENIAL! sounds like you're in a fog of your own. this behavior of yours confounds me. you seem to enjoy their little fling. remaining in stasis as you are will guarantee a full fledged affair in no time. i can't believe how nonchalant you're being about being double-betrayed by the way, you are being selfish keeping this from her husband. it's not for you to decide his fate. he has a right to know what his wife has been doing. you are rugsweeping, hoping it all goes away-- you're delusional!
Author aussie mum Posted April 24, 2012 Author Posted April 24, 2012 Make no mistake . . .I am NOT in any, way, shape or form happy about their 'fling'. I am however doing my best to salvage my marriage and friendships that are very important to me. Nor am I nonchalant. I have been extremely hurt. I am now in a place that I can control my emotions and body I understand the thought that he has a right to know, but I don't believe it is my place to tell him. I am not hoping it all goes away - I am dealing with the reality of it every freaking day, the best way I know how. I am trying to protect myself . . . . hence why I have reached out here.
Artie Lang Posted April 24, 2012 Posted April 24, 2012 (edited) friendships that are very important to me. you mean, you still consider her a "friend?" OMFG! why is it not you place to tell him.....she was involved with your husband! her husband has been involved as soon as they crossed the line. contrary to what you may believe, you're not protecting yourself, you're protecting these two scumbags-- one you call a friend, and the other you call a husband. of course it's your place to tell him. Nor am I nonchalant. I have been extremely hurt. I am now in a place that I can control my emotions and body you could've fooled me. you're still letting them communicate. that shows how nonchalant you're being. there is no reason for them to be talking still. I am trying to protect myself . . . . hence why I have reached out here. just posting is not going to protect you. you need to take action. am i the only one who thinks this? Edited April 24, 2012 by Artie Lang 1
seren Posted April 24, 2012 Posted April 24, 2012 Aussie Mum, Hi, I couldn't have the same friendship with someone who had been intimate with my H. The line that has been crossed by them both would mean I could not trust either of them again. I also think that you are betraying your male friend's friendship and trust, if it were my best mate that needed telling anything then I would tell, even at the expense of our friendship. You ask what does love mean? it means different things to different people and everyone has their own expectations. If yours is that the intimate relationship between your H and the woman friend makes no difference to how you are now and to how you love your H, have you accepted that he will likely be intmate again? The texts, email's and the continuing friendship makes no sense to me, TBH, it would twist my insides silly to know there was continued contact between my H and the XOW. Mutual masterbation is an A, however you cut it, a line was crossed that can never be stepped back over again, the sexual connection between them both was acknowledged and acted upon a number of times. Has you H addressed why this was? what was it that allowed him to do this, or doesn't he and you think that it was infidelity? As for the male friend, sorry but my best friend looks out for me and has my back, always and I hers, I would continue to do so, even if it hurt me and ended our friendship, not telling is betrayal also. I get the public image being important, believe me I know what that is like, but people move along and forget when someone else's misfortune crops up. It's not what others think of your actions that matters, what matters is if you are OK with it all. That you are on LS suggests you are not.. What do you want to happen next and can you continue to be friends with the female friend?
Author aussie mum Posted April 24, 2012 Author Posted April 24, 2012 Artie Lang - I am reaching out, in order to hear other views, reinforce my notions and I have been continually striving to understand, heal and forgive. I don't disagree with what you are saying, but in my world it is not as black and white as that (clearly the bottom line is - but we don't live at the bottom line.) In an ideal world this would never have happened. Our marriage worked, our sex life was great and we had another couple that we gelled so well with us and our children. Clearly this has altered for me. I lose all round. I do believe that good people make mistakes. I also believe that neither party intended to hurt me - their actions were not about me at all. Of course there are two sides to that and it hurts to know that my H was able to 'forget' about me during and push the reality of what he was doing to the back of his mind. I digress, Seren, thanks for your words - my relationship with the other woman has been strained. I have had some very frank discussions with her too. I will never fully trust her again, but I had held out some hope for my husband. I don't know what TBH means, but I get the general gist of what you are saying. He can't explain the sexual behaviour except to say that it felt good at the time - proximity and opportunity I guess. Ahh, to be honest - yay got it! You are right, although the pair of them downplay the behavious saying it means (meant) nothing and both of them assure me that they are not having an affair nor want to run away with eachother. What do I want to do? I would like him out of the house until he sorts his own stuff out. I think his freudian slips speak volumes and he needs to understand why everything that has happened did actually happen so that he can prevent it from happening again. I would like their contact to lessen (TBH, I would love it if he didn't see her on his own - again though, I am not his keeper. He has his own choices to make, to which I have the right to feel upset, supportive of, or whatever). It does, at times, twist my insides silly. There have been times I have felt physically ill. My H knows this. I still don't react well to him telling me that he has seen her. I cannot help the way that I feel and will not apologise for it. My H doesn't believe he has 1. Had an affair, 2. Commited infidelity. He believes what he did was wrong though and that he will never be in the position that it could happen again. I do feel conflicted about the OH, but I am at this point in time still resolute in my decision. If it has changed nothing in their relationships (his & hers, my H and hers and the OH and his) what does telling achieve? It brings heartache and pain to someone I care about, very much. Puts two children I adore in pain and again, I lose everything. I am not about revenge. Their marriage is their business, however, if he directly asked me I would answer him honestly (just like I did when I told him that I didn't believe their version of events from the night I found out - he was told that I woke to find them snuggled in what appeared to be a compromising position but there was nothing to it). He knows, that I do not agree with this but has not yet pressed me further. He will if/when he is ready. I have been betrayed by two people very close to me. It hurts, no denying that. I have not coped well. It has been very hard, my foundations have been rocked and my world is now tilted. My issue is that I want some stabilty back. I don't want him to say I love you sarah when he is in bed with me. I can't control this. He doesn't know why he said it, so how can he control it? This is my breaking point.
Artie Lang Posted April 24, 2012 Posted April 24, 2012 you're putting you head in the sand.....good luck with that. UNBELIEVABLE!
Author aussie mum Posted April 24, 2012 Author Posted April 24, 2012 I disagree. My understanding of putting my head in the sand would be to pretend that none of this happened. That is not what I am doing at all. I AM continually talking to my H about how I feel and what I am going through, it does affect every facet of my life. I sometimes wish I COULD put my head in the sand, and pretend. Lots do, I can't. Clearly I just do it differently to you. But I am very happy to hear your thoughts and have you challenge mine constructively.
My_love Posted April 24, 2012 Posted April 24, 2012 Aussie, I am very sorry that you are going through this situation with your husband and your xbf (or she should be!).... But let me please give you some advise from someone who has been married to a cheater for 28 years... 1. She is not your friend. She is a bottom feeder who betrayed one of her most important relationships in the world. Friends stick together and take care of each other, and always have each others back. They do not mess with their friends husband. Even if you do work it out with your H I would NEVER have ANYTHING to do with this woman, ever. I would not want someone with such weak morals around my children either. She / they crossed a definate line that cannot be uncrossed. Everytime you see her all of these feelngs will come back to you, time and time again. It will never go away if she is a constant reminder of the dissolution of your family. 2. It is easy when you have 5 kids at home to explain away your husband's unfaithfulness. You will keep yourself so busy with work, kids, house that you will not allow yourself time to think about this betrayal. I know all you want now is for your old life to return. It never will. He was unfaithful and you deserve better. For your marriage to work he has to be completely transparent in ALL of his actions, for as long as you need to build the trust again. Once trust is broken it will take years to recover, and by her being in the picture it will definately take much longer, if ever. Again, she will be a constant reminder of the pain they caused you. 3. Your children...I feel like us, as mothers, have to show our children that it is not okay to betray the most sacred union there is. You chose this man to live your life with, he is your best friend and he is the father of your children. Show them that it is not okay to break a vow. Believe me, no matter how young, they know something is up with Mommy. Something has changed. Show them you are strong and that you deserve better! Would you want them to be treated like this? Never! But if you do not show them to respect themselves and that it is okay to stand up for themselves, then the cycle will repeat its self. Believe me, it will. 4. He has hurt you, broke your soul, your self esteem is probably in the gutter (hence the passivness). Take control. Get Mad. It will take time to get mad and stop wallowing in the pity party and being sad for what was. For me it was about 10 months for me to finally get angry. But boy once I did, my self respect returned. The fire returned and it felt good. It's time for you to take control of your life and the situation at hand. Make some demands of yor husband. Make him prove to you that he wants to salvage your marriage. Your marriage can be even stronger than it was before if he is willing to meet the necessary things that need to happen for your to regain your trust. 5. Being a doormat will not keep him there. He will loose all respect for you and will leave you. Men like a challenge and if you act desperate to hang on to your marriage whatever shape it is in, he will do this again, again, and again. All you are giving him now is the impression that it is okay to behave like this. That you will not do anything to break up your family. 6. Tell her husband. He deserves the truth. No matter what cost, no matter the gossip, no matter anything. He does not deserve to be kept in the dark. He can make the appropriate decision for his life, if he has the truth. 7. Read the book, "Love must be Tough" by Dr. James Dobson. It will empower you. It will make so much sense that you will not believe you were thinking like you were. My husband has cheated on me for years and years. Like you, I lived in a small town and had to deal with the gossip. I can only imagine what people thought of me for repeatedly forgiving him. I never caught him redhanded, but I did know and heard the gossip. I have 4 kids and was always busy with kids, house, work, etc and kept my head in the sand. I did not want to rock my boat, I didn't want anything to change. Well here we are 28 years later, still going through the same ****. Still sitting home alone while he is out doing his thing, under the pretence of working. The difference this time is that I don't have little kids to keep my mind busy now and it completely drives me crazy. It is all I think about day and night. I can't believe that I allowed him to think that it is okay to treat me like this and to betray me. I am actually strongly considering divorce. Like you, I deserve better. I just wish that I would of reacted this strongly in the beginning. Who knows maybe our marriage could of been saved then instead of continually battling the same crap. Good luck girlfriend. It sucks going through this, but this is what you've been dealt. Respond to it strongly and stand up for yourself and your self respect. No one deserves this. 7
seren Posted April 24, 2012 Posted April 24, 2012 Aussie, would it have made any difference if you had caught them mid act, rather than mutual masturbation? Just trying to understand how you can not ask for NC (No Contact), for most of us XBS (ex betrayed Spouses) NC is an absolute, and no you don't own him, you do however have the right to say what actions of your H makes you uncomfortable. I also think I don't own anyone, but I own me, I own my marriage (not the relaionship I see that as different) and I get to say to my H what makes me comfortable in that marriage and he to me. I don't know that you are in denial or whether it just comes over that it has been a case of, OK I caught you out, don't do it again. I am sure there was more to it than that, but where is his remorse, his doing all to make you feel secure, his actions and yours to address why he did this? More importantly, what is he going to do to make sure he doesn't do it again? That there is no NC makes the likelihood that they will again, far more likely. His calling you her name would suggest he is thinking of her and no, you cannot control his dreams, speach, thoughts or actions, but you can say when it is unacceptable to you. More will be along to comment and you will get lots of different perspectives but I can bet that most will say NC is the first step and necessary for this to move forward. 2
Author aussie mum Posted April 24, 2012 Author Posted April 24, 2012 Thanks for your words of advice and my sympathies to you also. I would never think this was good enough for my children, never. Neither would my H. We have discussed this. Point 4 is very interesting and I shall try. I am not a doormat. Is that the perception? I am not prepared to ride this merry go round for the rest of my life. I will look for the book, thanks. You are right, no one deserves this. x
Author aussie mum Posted April 24, 2012 Author Posted April 24, 2012 Seren, I know that it is the logical thing, it would definately be my preference and perhaps I have not made that clear enough to my H. I will try again tonight.
findingnemo Posted April 24, 2012 Posted April 24, 2012 Aussie mum, there are people who take their time to react to things. You seem like one of those. It's a good thing because once you decide what to do, you will have no regrets. Here's my opinion. 1. Your BF and H have gotten into something that will not stop unless they suffer serious consequences. Since you don't police them, there's nothing to stop them from continuing the game playing. It's a game to them. It must be because you caught them red-handed. I, for one, don't see a distinction between having sex and mutual masturbating. Isn't that a form of sex? You caught them in the act. 2. You know you don't want to deal with this shyte for the rest of your life. So you must find a solution. So far your H has felt so damn comfortable with how things are that he called you someone else's name when saying he loved you. Oh oh... Believe me when I say they are in a full blown A. Where did you walk in on them again? Your house? Her house? Whichever. What kind of guts are those to have sex in such close proximity? They act like swingers. Their attitude is very alarming. Please take your time and make a plan. It is your life, your H, your small town and you know what, even if you lost it and yelled at the top of your voice, it is your right to be angry. 1
maybealone Posted April 24, 2012 Posted April 24, 2012 7. Maybealone, it only started post sexual activity. Not ever happened in our marriage before. I like (and agree) with your points. I have already put this to him. Part of my answer how? How to have strict boundaries? I'm not sure how, with any level of "friendship" they are allowed to have, you will not be able to keep them from "dating." Because that is essentially what they are doing. Even if you restrict them from seeing each other only when it's the four of you together, that's just dating with chaperones. both of them assure me that they are not having an affair nor want to run away with eachother. Why would they run away together? They can each have their kids full time and the spouses watch the kids while they are talking and texting and spending as much time together as they want. I can't see any reason for either of them to give that up. 5. Being a doormat will not keep him there. He will loose all respect for you and will leave you. Men like a challenge and if you act desperate to hang on to your marriage whatever shape it is in, he will do this again, again, and again. All you are giving him now is the impression that it is okay to behave like this. That you will not do anything to break up your family. I have doubts that this will cause him to leave you, since he is in the ultimate have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too situation, but I agree that he could see you as a doormat. Look at it from another point of view -- how much respect would you have for your husband if he caught you sleeping with another man and did nothing to stop you from having a relationship with that man? Or how would your kids feel if, five years from now, your husband and Sarah end up together and the kids find out the whole story about how you knew about it the whole time? The reason I have not demanded full no contact is that I am not his keeper. This is a sincere question, not an attempt to be mean: Do you have any lines in the sand? Is he allowed to go out drinking every night if he wants to, or sleep with other people if he wants to, or spend money on frivolous things even if it impacts the needs of the children? I totally understand wanting to save your marriage. I just think you need to take some more time to process what has happened to you, and figure out a way to handle it that will allow you to continue to respect your husband, your marriage, and YOU.
stillafool Posted April 24, 2012 Posted April 24, 2012 1. Your BF and H have gotten into something that will not stop unless they suffer serious consequences. What are the consequences you have set in place for your H and BF Aussie Mom?
stillafool Posted April 24, 2012 Posted April 24, 2012 4. A little bit of background - we live in a small town. The last thing I want, or need is for my life to be gossiped about. I don't want peoples sympathy. I am a teacher at the local school, which all our children attend. My husband owns and runs a successful building company. We married at 21 and were together since high school. He was very inexperienced sexually and we were each others firsts. I am not good at failure. The community believes I am superwoman who has it all together. That I live a busy but charmed existance. The reality is obviously quite a different story. What is more important to you, your happiness or what other people think? That is what you need to ask yourself. If you keep the above mindset you will be miserable for the rest of your life.
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