no more interest in CHIVALRY?

[samsungxoxo]

It's not dead but it's rare unless I were travelling to UK (United Kingdom). I heard more people are more educated there than the US.

[wwwjd]

This question has been plaguing me for many many years in my young adult life. But finally, I do believe I have the real answer to it. Maybe.

 

The most stereotypical chivalrous stance one could take assumes that the "maiden is always in distress".

 

It's not entirely true, some women are independent in their very nature and can decide and do things on their own.............. whether to their own benefit or their detriment. Those women don't need a knight in shining armor, rather more like someone who accept them for who they are.

 

Women aside, pursuing Chivalry for it's own good, without selfish intentions is it's own reward.

 

I love where you went with this, but let me challenge it a little with more text book, dictionary definition dissection. Let's drop the whole KNIGHT thang and focus on DEF #2

 

2. courteous behaviour, esp towards women

 

courteous: having or showing good manners; polite. polite and considerate in manner

 

Courteous has nothing to do with knights or weakness or sexes, just manners and polite. The word CHIVALRY has been pegged with meaning ESPEICALLY Courteous to women. Nothing wrong with that, that is just how the word was done. So, I'd say your definition of Chivalry can mean whatever you want it to inside your head - maidens in distress if ya want - the real meaning is simply manners.

 

Women can remain independant, do their own stuff and what not and still allow a man to be Chivalrous with them. No?

 

True, nowdays, espeically with youth loosing manners, SOME Chilvary is done with expected payment, SOME but not all. There is not always selfish intension behind it. I enjoy being nice because it makes ME feel good to make someone else feel good.

 

Reguardless of whatever media is pounding into our heads these days, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH BEING NICE. And EVERYONE is not selfish.

[Patrice]

There is not one thing wrong with being nice, considerate and having manners .. including holding doors open. I think most women love it .. including me.

[firehawk_1]

ive always been brought up on good manners. i always do that however given todays society and how women are, i forget about it as its not worth the effort or time since they are always rude and unappreciative. they are only appreciative if you are "hot". since when did doing nice and decent things result in being thankful for if you are "hot"?

 

next time if I see some man beating a woman - I wont help cos im not "hot" enough.

[dasein]

"Chivalry" is sexist by definition, women generally don't mind sexism that benefits them. Chivalry is also a semantic nullity. It doesn't mean what people think it does.

 

Chivalry never even existed in much of a historical sense, it is a literary writing device that reanimated in the middle 20th century after being dead for centuries. It's similar to Valentine's Day in that respect, a purely literary device that has taken on new modern meaning mostly related to marketing, journalism and writing generally. IIRC, it was completely unused for 400 or so years before marketers and copywriters got ahold of it and "necroed" it up in the 1950s.

 

Historical chivalry is a creature of literature surrounding "courtly love," something that hasn't existed -at all- since feudalism, and also something that was never a concern for rank and file humanity anyway, only the elite. It only ever applied to the tiny top 1% or less of the population, not to everyone else. Chivalry is something out of the pages of Chaucer, Byron etc. MUCH more than it was ever anything real.

 

What we call "chivalry" today is actually cultural largesse extended to women as the seat of the reproductive capacity or by weak men without the power to mate without trading resources for mating privileges. Common courtesy, not letting the door slam in someone's face, is completely different, and doesn't discriminate based on gender.

 

The kind of "women and children first" protective treatment mistakenly termed "chivalry" is habituated over thousands of years, tribes good at it flourished despite high mother and infant mortality and low life expectancy. Tribes bad at it are extinct. It's really that simple. That's really all chivalry is. People notoriously confuse chivalry, basic civility and courtesy, and survival imperatives, mostly due to chivalry being "made up" more than historical fact.

 

In the technological environment of the 20th century, low infant and mother mortality, the survival of the tribe is no longer an issue, yet it takes some time for habituated behavior to rescind, that time will be hastened by the level of social problems caused by excess children and overpopulation.

 

Other than weak, supplicating men, seeking to exchange their resouces for sex, what writers and we misterm as "chivalry" will be completely gone within a few decades.

 

Good.

[Patrice]

Women are just as considerate as men, or you haven't met the right one yet

[samsungxoxo]

a hot man could beat a woman and all too often he gets away with it.

Wouldn't he get jumped by some of the other men watching it (if they happen to be there too)? Only bad news if it the woman has a really low self-esteem she might end up defending that loser.

[threebyfate]

I love chivalry.

 

Does your reference to responses in "another post" refer to your thread about how most or even all women secretly want to be kept and protected by men, even if they don't realize it?

 

I hope not, because that concept is a far cry from courtesy to women, courage, honor, justice and willingness to help the weak. I can't imagine a soul having a problem with any of those qualities.

As usual, it's the lack thereof that creates the lack thereof.

[udolipixie]

Some women and men are interested in chivalry.

Some women and men aren't interested in chivalry.

 

To me is a sexist custom as it's especially towards women. Not too sure many guys would enjoy laws that are nice especially towards women. There are laws like that already and many call it sexist, discriminatory double standards, and ant-male. I see no difference in the discrimination in chivalry and such laws.

 

To me:

• You are being sexist in the sense that it's something you do for a woman but not for a man solely based on genitals.
   
  
• You are being role pushing as it's a custom you do because you have male genitals and think it's your role.
   
  
• Whether you're a pig or reducing the equality of women is a toss up.
  

 

 

I hope chivalry dies.

 

I can't seeing why men should be especially courteous to women because he has a stick and she has a hole.

 

I can see why many women would enjoy a guy they care about being especially courteous to them and why many men would love that reaction. I can see that custom being applicable in a romantic relationship but as a general way of life....

 

I'd rather human decency defined as courteous behavior especially towards loved ones, children, and animals. To me discrimination that favors children and animals being well treated while others are also treated well is okay to me. As well as I think most people discriminate when it comes to loved ones.

 

It's quite interesting how many men bemoan how women feel entitled to this & that because they have female genitals or expect this & that treatment but uphold chivalry. To me that's supporting the thing you're complaining about.

 

Going so far as many MRAs and anti-feminists say chivalry is not raping women and feminists should beware as they're killing chivalry. If that's chivalry = chivalry rather than human decency it suggests that for men not raping women isn't a part of basic human decency to them but some special treatment they give women under chivalry.

[ThaWholigan]

Some women and men are interested in chivalry.

Some women and men aren't interested in chivalry.

 

To me is a sexist custom as it's especially towards women. Not too sure many guys would enjoy laws that are nice especially towards women. There are laws like that already and many call it sexist, discriminatory double standards, and ant-male. I see no difference in the discrimination in chivalry and such laws.

 

To me:

• You are being sexist in the sense that it's something you do for a woman but not for a man solely based on genitals.
   
  
• You are being role pushing as it's a custom you do because you have male genitals and think it's your role.
   
  
• Whether you're a pig or reducing the equality of women is a toss up.
  

 

 

I hope chivalry dies.

 

I can't seeing why men should be especially courteous to women because he has a stick and she has a hole.

 

I can see why many women would enjoy a guy they care about being especially courteous to them and why many men would love that reaction. I can see that custom being applicable in a romantic relationship but as a general way of life....

 

I'd rather human decency defined as courteous behavior especially towards loved ones, children, and animals. To me discrimination that favors children and animals being well treated while others are also treated well is okay to me. As well as I think most people discriminate when it comes to loved ones.

 

It's quite interesting how many men bemoan how women feel entitled to this & that because they have female genitals or expect this & that treatment but uphold chivalry. To me that's supporting the thing you're complaining about.

 

Going so far as many MRAs and anti-feminists say chivalry is not raping women and feminists should beware as they're killing chivalry. If that's chivalry = chivalry rather than human decency it suggests that for men not raping women isn't a part of basic human decency to them but some special treatment they give women under chivalry.

How did you come to the conclusion that it is many men who hold these views? Again, I sometimes wonder with bemusement what bleak planet some of you guys live on .

 

Having said that, I have no knowledge of MRA or even feminism. Simply because it doesn't really interest me much.

[udolipixie]

How did you come to the conclusion that it is many men who hold these views?

What men themselves say, my experiences/observations, other women's experiences/observations.

 

I stated many men have the what I see as supporting the thing you're complaining about by bemoaning woman expect special treatment because of behavior but upholding chivalry.

 

The chivalry = not raping women is something I see commonly in male MRAs and anti-feminists.

 

Again, I sometimes wonder with bemusement what bleak planet some of you guys live on .

America for me.

 

There's tons of American men, experiences/observations of American men, and what American men say themselves on sites, blogs, forums, and chatrooms detailing their hate, bitterness, and resentment towards women.

 

I don't encounter these types often in my life I just meet & know them. There's a difference for me between friends, social circle, people I know, and people I meet. Oddly enough the same guys in my life who aren't filled with that negative attitude are the ones these guys who likely call bad boys, jerks, or alphas because of their attractiveness, status, wealth, social skills, and ability to attract women.

 

Having said that, I have no knowledge of MRA or even feminism. Simply because it doesn't really interest me much.

[firehawk_1]

so screwed up. a non hot man might be accused of holding the door open just so he can get in her pants. a hot man could beat a woman and all too often he gets away with it.

 

 

EXACTLY my friend. EXACTLY. sorry but women make these situations for themselves and then blame men....

i just wish there were more common women who are respectful, understanding, caring and just damn right nice rather than inverting things and making it messed up.

 

the only connection I have with women, seriously, is if they are in their 50's and above because of that mentality and respect. now a days... nothing like that AT ALL.

[ThaWholigan]

What men themselves say, my experiences/observations, other women's experiences/observations.

 

I stated many men have the what I see as supporting the thing you're complaining about by bemoaning woman expect special treatment because of behavior but upholding chivalry.

 

The chivalry = not raping women is something I see commonly in male MRAs and anti-feminists.

 

I think someone posted earlier describing what you're talking about as Pseudo-chivalry, which is pretty accurate to me. I know lots of guys who do that. I don't think I've seen anyone equate it simply to "not raping women". I think that people should pracrice dealing with everyone at the same level of courtesy.

 

 

I don't encounter these types often in my life I just meet & know them. There's a difference for me between friends, social circle, people I know, and people I meet. Oddly enough the same guys in my life who aren't filled with that negative attitude are the ones these guys who likely call bad boys, jerks, or alphas because of their attractiveness, status, wealth, social skills, and ability to attract women.

 

 

At the bolded, I completely agree with this 100%. I always hear about how all the *******s get the girls, but a lot of the time, it's never as black and white as that. Most of the guys I know who do well with women have a lot of attractive traits that make them good to be around, especially as a friend. It just seems that those guys project their ire onto the image of those guys.

[Woggle]

I know very few true woman haters. Sure I hear men gripe about women but women do the same about men but I don't know too many men who just outright hate women and view them as less than human. Look at me. Yeah I complain about gender issues but I would never want to see women treated as 2nd class citizens. The MRAs that you see on the internet are a small percentage of people that nobody takes seriously yet some feminists seem obsessed with them.

 

As for chivalry I have no problem with it but I can't stand women who refuse to do any of the traditional stuff for their man yet expect the princess treatment themselves. They don't realize that you get what you give and if you want a man to be gentlemen you need to inspire that instinct in him.

[wwwjd]

Wow. Tough crowd in here. It amazes me where a thread about being nice will go on its journey.

[udolipixie]

I think someone posted earlier describing what you're talking about as Pseudo-chivalry, which is pretty accurate to me. I know lots of guys who do that. I don't think I've seen anyone equate it simply to "not raping women". I think that people should pracrice dealing with everyone at the same level of courtesy.

In many guys I see pseudo chivalry (I'm nice you owe me) and bemoaning what you're upholding (complaining that women feel entitled to special treatment because of their genitals yet I support chivalry).

In many male MRAs and anti-feminists I see the chivalry = not raping women or murdering or other extremes.

 

At the bolded, I completely agree with this 100%. I always hear about how all the *******s get the girls, but a lot of the time, it's never as black and white as that. Most of the guys I know who do well with women have a lot of attractive traits that make them good to be around, especially as a friend. It just seems that those guys project their ire onto the image of those guys.

From my experiences/observations the average/unattractive guys with traits not attractive to the women they want tend to do the projecting.

 

I rarely see guys with attractive traits to the women they want do the whole nice guys finish last or *******s get all the women. The ones that have tend to be the ones who changed and became attractive to those they wanted.

 

Such as this overweight guy in high school who wanted hot cheerleader as a gf. I told him to lose weight, lose the acne, change his style, gain confidence, and learn sarcastic dark humor as she liked the swimmer type guys who were confident and had a dark sarcastic humor. He did and he got her but was upset that she likely wouldn't have overlooked her shallowness towards weight/looks and like him for his personality.

 

I saw it as hypocrisy as he sure didn't want any of the average/unattractive women interested in him. I doubt he wanted the hot cheerleader because she was nice as he never spoke to her or interacted with her. Them lasting only 1 week with no sex seemed to solidify his beliefs of nice guys finish last with ugly women, women don't want nice, and etc.

 

He didn't seem to get that it didn't matter how nice you were if the women you want don't find you attractive or see traits they find attractive.

[udolipixie]

I know very few true woman haters.

I meet & know plenty.

 

I read/see far far far more than I meet/know.

 

Sure I hear men gripe about women but women do the same about men but I don't know too many men who just outright hate women and view them as less than human. Look at me.

I'm not talking about griping but having a notion considered rational, logical, fact, and truth when it is really griping/complaining/sexist. Such as all women are evil, whores, gold diggers, and all women deserved to be X.

 

Yeah I complain about gender issues but I would never want to see women treated as 2nd class citizens.

I meet & know and met many men who do.

 

Those are the ones who have the nice views.

 

I meet & know far more who want women as slaves or cattle.

 

I read/see far far far more online from men about taking away rights or creating slavery for women than what I meet/know.

 

I'm not concerned about many men griping and considering it rational, logical, fact, and truth.

 

I'm intrigued by the many men who want mistreatment of women as it mostly seems to come from men in the country I live in.

 

The MRAs that you see on the internet are a small percentage of people that nobody takes seriously yet some feminists seem obsessed with them.

To me that's a bit illogical to say as plenty do take them seriously enough to identify with them and create sites, blogs, forums, and chatrooms.

 

As for chivalry I have no problem with it but I can't stand women who refuse to do any of the traditional stuff for their man yet expect the princess treatment themselves. They don't realize that you get what you give and if you want a man to be gentlemen you need to inspire that instinct in him.

I agree with the hypocrisy in the double standards wanting traditional but not realizing you may have to be traditional yourself.

 

I disagree on the inspire that instinct. I often get quite . by that advice as it's mainly geared to women. When women aren't acting the way a man way he's often told to 'put his foot down' or leave. Seems men get told not to put up with bad behavior from women while women get told to reward bad behavior in hopes it'll change.

[zengirl]

Personally, I love courtesy. I just don't understand why we cannot apply it across the board. I'm happy to hold the door open for hubby, and I love when he holds the door open for me. I don't get offended if someone wants to give me extra courtesy because I'm a woman per se --- but I do find it totally unnecessary and I do question someone who would not also be courteous towards men. I especially dislike someone who only extends courtesy towards me because he finds me physically attractive. MMV, of course. However, I certainly never assume any of that based on someone holding a door for me --- I just assume he's a nice person unless I see him let it slam in some guy's face or something.

[ThaWholigan]

From my experiences/observations the average/unattractive guys with traits not attractive to the women they want tend to do the projecting.

 

I rarely see guys with attractive traits to the women they want do the whole nice guys finish last or *******s get all the women. The ones that have tend to be the ones who changed and became attractive to those they wanted.

 

Such as this overweight guy in high school who wanted hot cheerleader as a gf. I told him to lose weight, lose the acne, change his style, gain confidence, and learn sarcastic dark humor as she liked the swimmer type guys who were confident and had a dark sarcastic humor. He did and he got her but was upset that she likely wouldn't have overlooked her shallowness towards weight/looks and like him for his personality.

 

I saw it as hypocrisy as he sure didn't want any of the average/unattractive women interested in him. I doubt he wanted the hot cheerleader because she was nice as he never spoke to her or interacted with her. Them lasting only 1 week with no sex seemed to solidify his beliefs of nice guys finish last with ugly women, women don't want nice, and etc.

 

He didn't seem to get that it didn't matter how nice you were if the women you want don't find you attractive or see traits they find attractive.

 

It's funny to me. Guys like that really overthink the whole attraction process. I admit that I overanalyze it myself, but it's in my nature to be like that so I'm not exactly going to use it to beat myself up and blame women simultaneously. I think they would do better putting their energy into worthwhile pursuits, and they will in turn attract the right women.

 

With regards to women, I find that attraction works as mysteriously as love does, in that a lot of women end up with guys that normally wouldn't be attractive by conventional standards, causing me to believe that attraction is indeed subjective amongst individuals, as guys have appeared to be the same. One of my closest friends has had 2 LTRs with 2 overweight women, and appeared to be completely attracted to them. They were nice girls, even though I likely wouldn't have dated them. This is why I believe guys and girls both have varying attractions.

 

I think it's important to embody the internal traits that your ideal woman finds attractive, if possible. I talked with one of my brothers who is quite small about attracting women, and he explained that his confidence has brought him much success despite his height. He is 5 foot 8, which isn't that small, but still.

[Woggle]

Sure there are plenty of MRA sites but there are also plenty of misandrist sites. Trust me on that one. I have seen women saying that men are good for nothing other than our sperm and after that we might as well be slaughtered. MRAs who genuinely do want to enslave women are just very loud and very vocal. Usually you see the same few men in every forum.

 

I am never saying that women should put up with bad behavior but don't expect a man to go that extra mile if you are treating him like pond scum. I think that there are some women and I am not talking about all that feel that they have the right to treat men any way they want but still feel they are entitled to the princess treatment but with me a person gets what they give.

[yongyong]

Let me explain it simple.

 

Restaurant-sushi (you), Chivalry (customer service)

 

1: She likes Sushi and she had a great customer service there. She will keep coming back.

 

2: She hates Sushi. Now does she give a damn about good customer service??????????

 

Attraction first then Chivalry. You can't change her mind by being nice.

[NXS]

I meet & know plenty.

 

I read/see far far far more than I meet/know.

 

 

I'm not talking about griping but having a notion considered rational, logical, fact, and truth when it is really griping/complaining/sexist. Such as all women are evil, whores, gold diggers, and all women deserved to be X.

 

 

I meet & know and met many men who do.

 

Those are the ones who have the nice views.

 

I meet & know far more who want women as slaves or cattle.

 

I read/see far far far more online from men about taking away rights or creating slavery for women than what I meet/know.

 

I'm not concerned about many men griping and considering it rational, logical, fact, and truth.

 

I'm intrigued by the many men who want mistreatment of women as it mostly seems to come from men in the country I live in.

 

 

To me that's a bit illogical to say as plenty do take them seriously enough to identify with them and create sites, blogs, forums, and chatrooms.

 

 

I agree with the hypocrisy in the double standards wanting traditional but not realizing you may have to be traditional yourself.

 

I disagree on the inspire that instinct. I often get quite . by that advice as it's mainly geared to women. When women aren't acting the way a man way he's often told to 'put his foot down' or leave. Seems men get told not to put up with bad behavior from women while women get told to reward bad behavior in hopes it'll change.

 

Lol, nice story.

[truth_seeker]

A classy woman appreciates chivalry.

[udolipixie]

It's funny to me. Guys like that really overthink the whole attraction process. I admit that I overanalyze it myself, but it's in my nature to be like that so I'm not exactly going to use it to beat myself up and blame women simultaneously. I think they would do better putting their energy into worthwhile pursuits, and they will in turn attract the right women.

The putting your energy into pursuits most likely would have attracted the gal he wanted. He had gals just not the type he wanted so I told him what he would have to put his energy into to get that type.

 

With regards to women, I find that attraction works as mysteriously as love does, in that a lot of women end up with guys that normally wouldn't be attractive by conventional standards, causing me to believe that attraction is indeed subjective amongst individuals, as guys have appeared to be the same.

I don't agree that this shows attraction as mysterious as you may find the men the women end up with not attractive by conventional standards but those may not be her standards so he may be attractive by her standards.

 

One of my closest friends has had 2 LTRs with 2 overweight women, and appeared to be completely attracted to them. They were nice girls, even though I likely wouldn't have dated them. This is why I believe guys and girls both have varying attractions.

I agree on the varying attraction showing attraction is mysterious.

 

I think it's important to embody the internal traits that your ideal woman finds attractive, if possible. I talked with one of my brothers who is quite small about attracting women, and he explained that his confidence has brought him much success despite his height. He is 5 foot 8, which isn't that small, but still.

This.

 

The guy and many guys don't get this that it doesn't matter how nice you are or whatever other traits you value if the women you want don't find you attractive or see traits they find attractive.

 

For some reason many men think I need to find her attractive because of X, Y, Z and she'll want me because I'm nice/decent/good something that is generally expected by default in adults.

[dasein]

Going so far as many MRAs and anti-feminists say chivalry is not raping women and feminists should beware as they're killing chivalry. If that's chivalry = chivalry rather than human decency it suggests that for men not raping women isn't a part of basic human decency to them but some special treatment they give women under chivalry.

 

Have never seen that sentiment stated or even implied anywhere other than possibly in trolls, where a man or men are claiming that they are doing women some kind of favor, paying them a courtesy or being chivalrous merely in not commiting rape.