Do affair partners “owe” anything?

[Quiet Storm]

What I do know, is that many WS have a need to be honest to their AP exactly because they are dishonest at home. They need to have one relationship where they can be totally honest.

 

This one is right out of the MM handbook. They say things like this to foster an emotional connection to the OW and it works.

[stillwater]

One of the biggest mistakes an OW can make is to assume MM's dishonesty is situational.

^^^^ This is perfect.

[woinlove]

This one is right out of the MM handbook. They say things like this to foster an emotional connection to the OW and it works.

 

I agree, although there is a grain of truth in there. I think some WS do need their AP to give them positive reinforcement about some of the things the are doing to their family. They may particularly need to hear that they are a good parent, or to be told in some way they deserve to have an A (not in those exact words, but the end result is that kind of reinforcement), One shouldn't confuse this with them being honest, as honesty doesn't have much to do with it. They confess certain things, looking for certain reinforcement and support.

[whichwayisup]

A simple question that another thread got me thinking:

 

Do APs “owe” each other anything?

 

Overall, I think my AP/xMM owes me honesty and consideration both during and after the A (in ending it and while maintaining a frienship) and a proper NC (meaning informing me if he wanted to go NC). I feel like I owe him the same.

 

Thoughts?

 

No. Going into an affair, the OW/OM KNOWS the AP is married. Knows that the AP LIES and deceives his/her spouse every single day. Neither of you are obligated to one another. The A is based on lies, secretecy and ON the expense of a BS and their family.

[herenow]

I agree, although there is a grain of truth in there. I think some WS do need their AP to give them positive reinforcement about some of the things the are doing to their family. They may particularly need to hear that they are a good parent, or to be told in some way they deserve to have an A (not in those exact words, but the end result is that kind of reinforcement), One shouldn't confuse this with them being honest, as honesty doesn't have much to do with it. They confess certain things, looking for certain reinforcement and support.

 

I'm sure in many cases these MM really believe what they are telling the OW is the truth. A MM may be looking for justification by convincing the OW he is a "good man". These "truths" they tell about themselves are different than the lies they tell to both the BW and the OW to be able to keep the affair alive for whatever reason.

[herenow]

No. Going into an affair, the OW/OM KNOWS the AP is married. Knows that the AP LIES and deceives his/her spouse every single day. Neither of you are obligated to one another. The A is based on lies, secretecy and ON the expense of a BS and their family.

 

Exactly, but some OW's are not concerned about the lies he tells his wife. They expect him to be honest in the affair. Even as I write this post I find it to be a silly expectation at best.

[Quiet Storm]

I agree, although there is a grain of truth in there. I think some WS do need their AP to give them positive reinforcement about some of the things the are doing to their family. They may particularly need to hear that they are a good parent, or to be told in some way they deserve to have an A (not in those exact words, but the end result is that kind of reinforcement), One shouldn't confuse this with them being honest, as honesty doesn't have much to do with it. They confess certain things, looking for certain reinforcement and support.

 

Yes, because of the waywards needs for admiration and validation. That is the main reason they are even in an affair. Ego.

 

The wife stops admiring and validating because over the years she has started to question his character. The OW fills that need for him, she doesn't know his shortcomings like his wife does. Yet.

[trinity1]

Exactly, but some OW's are not concerned about the lies he tells his wife. They expect him to be honest in the affair. Even as I write this post I find it to be a silly expectation at best.

 

It's no different than the teenager who lies to his/her parents but tells the best friend everything. The best friend expects honesty and the truth even though he/she knows the teenager is lying at home.

[herenow]

So, I have engaged in this conversation before and what is coning is the question of why a BW would stay with such a liar.

 

Let me head this off and say that many of us kicked our CS out the moment we found out that he was such a liar. It took many of us time to be able to let our H's back in our lives. Most of us will agree that there is no excuse for the lying and cheating.

 

And, many of us will tell you that the changes we saw in our H's allowed us to give them another chance.

[Owl]

It's no different than the teenager who lies to his/her parents but tells the best friend everything. The best friend expects honesty and the truth even though he/she knows the teenager is lying at home.

 

ROFLMBO!!!

 

IT'S COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!!!! LOL!!!

 

The teenager lies to his parents but tells the truth to his friends HAS NO REASON TO LIE TO HIS FRIENDS.

 

The MM who is in an affair has every reason to lie to his affair partner, in order to convince her to continue in the affair despite any number of reasons she shouldn't.

 

He lies about the relationship with his wife. He lies about their interaction, about their sex life, about what life is like at home, etc... He does all of this to make him APPEAR to be the victim, and/or as good relationship material for the AP.

 

Clearly...this works for some healthy percentage of them.

 

Clearly, it works even better in some cases over others.

[Woggle]

It's no different than the teenager who lies to his/her parents but tells the best friend everything. The best friend expects honesty and the truth even though he/she knows the teenager is lying at home.

 

Kids are supposed to be somewhat excused but people old enough to be married should be past this nonsense and should be held accountable. Parents have authority of a child while all people are on an equal footing in this kind of situation. Do people really think somebody who can betray their vows and the person they promised to love and be faithful wouldn't lie to them? It's like investing with Bernie Madoff and thinking he will make an exception for you.

[herenow]

It's no different than the teenager who lies to his/her parents but tells the best friend everything. The best friend expects honesty and the truth even though he/she knows the teenager is lying at home.

 

I hold my H to a higher maturity standard that I do my teenage kids. I expect my kids to share things with their friends that they don't share with us. That is normal. I'm glad they have friends their own age who understand their issues. That is what being a teenager is all about. It is absolutely ridiculous to make this comparison, IMO.

[jlola]

Wonder how many OW would be ok with finding out there is OW #2 . I always wonder why it is ok for him to have a wife. But having another woman would cause jealousy and break-ups. As though wife is no competition.why is that?

[herenow]

I hold my H to a higher maturity standard that I do my teenage kids. I expect my kids to share things with their friends that they don't share with us. That is normal. I'm glad they have friends their own age who understand their issues. That is what being a teenager is all about. It is absolutely ridiculous to make this comparison, IMO.

 

Oh, unless the MM is teenager himself. Then I can see the comparison.

[Got it]

A simple question that another thread got me thinking:

 

Do APs “owe” each other anything?

 

Overall, I think my AP/xMM owes me honesty and consideration both during and after the A (in ending it and while maintaining a frienship) and a proper NC (meaning informing me if he wanted to go NC). I feel like I owe him the same.

 

Thoughts?

 

Every relationship builds expectations relevant to their relationship. I am not sure if there is a black and white "owed" but a set up guidelines, perimeters, etc.

 

We expected honesty, trust, communications, time, energy, appreciation, and compassion from each other.

[herenow]

Every relationship builds expectations relevant to their relationship. I am not sure if there is a black and white "owed" but a set up guidelines, perimeters, etc.

 

We expected honesty, trust, communications, time, energy, appreciation, and compassion from each other.

 

Even if the affair is based on a lie? If a MM is unwilling to leave his marriage, but still wants the affair, how can an OW expect any of the things you mention?

[Got it]

Even if the affair is based on a lie? If a MM is unwilling to leave his marriage, but still wants the affair, how can an OW expect any of the things you mention?

 

I don't see it as an absolute. In business you can have a contract with one vendor, follow or not follow but that same business practice is not the same for the next vendor.

 

Can the behaviors cross over? Sure. Is that an absolute? No.

 

The affair was never based on a lie. The truth was known in the affair, the perimeters were known, and expectations set out of that. Whether or not there were lies or lies of omission in the marriage are two separate things.

 

I am not sure about the "unwilling to leave his marriage" piece.

 

I can't speak for others as OWs are not all the same person. This OW had said expectations as did my MM. Based on the shared expectations we followed them for ourselves and as far as I am as aware to this day, we are both divorced and still together, we continue to follow said expectations.

[herenow]

 

The affair was never based on a lie. The truth was known in the affair, the perimeters were known, and expectations set out of that. Whether or not there were lies or lies of omission in the marriage are two separate things.

 

If the affair was not based on a lie to someone, it would not have been an affair. I am defining an affair as an intimate relationship with an individual who is married to someone else and that someone else does not know about the affair.

 

One can choose to ignore the fact that a married person is either lying or lying by omission to her or her spouse. That does not mean that the lie is not happening and not a part of the affair itself.

 

IMO, it's the lie that makes the relationship an affair to begin with. I repeat, without the lie it would not be an affair. But, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Got it]

If the affair was not based on a lie to someone, it would not have been an affair. I am defining an affair as an intimate relationship with an individual who is married to someone else and that someone else does not know about the affair.

 

One can choose to ignore the fact that a married person is either lying or lying by omission to her or her spouse. That does not mean that the lie is not happening and not a part of the affair itself.

 

IMO, it's the lie that makes the relationship an affair to begin with. I repeat, without the lie it would not be an affair. But, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

To be based on a lie, the lie would be between the two parties. But if the truth of it was known, that one or both parties is married I am not sure how that is based on a lie. There is no lying there.

 

It would stand to reason that the marriage would now be based on a lie as it was an agreement of fidelity, etc. that no longer was in place and so it was now running contrary to the set agreement.

 

But yes we may need to agree to disagree.

 

Regardless anyone can have expectations regardless of circumstance, context, or origin. The two parties can broker agreed upon expectations that run contrary to other relationships. Whether or not it is accepted does not mean that it isn't possible.

 

So, like I stated, based on MY experience, we agreed upon X, we followed through with X and we continue to follow X.

[jwi71]

Every relationship builds expectations relevant to their relationship. I am not sure if there is a black and white "owed" but a set up guidelines, perimeters, etc.

 

We expected honesty, trust, communications, time, energy, appreciation, and compassion from each other.

 

I agree.

 

In an A setting, the AP's often have those expectations. They are reasonable and almost universal to all human interaction.

The issue is those same expectations were ALSO established (and codified via M) to the BS. And it becomes painfully difficult for the AP's (especially, perhaps exclusively to, the OW) to know if its the truth or not.

 

Actions conflict with words and doubts creep in. The whole trust thing. Most AP's have it.

 

If I recall, and maybe I don't, you also had these issues - in fact were dating others aside from MM. Yes? No?

[silktricks]

IMHO, neither AP is "owed" anything by the other. Both have entered into an illicit relationship. If either chooses to remove themselves from the relationship they have the right to do so without notice or fanfare. That may not be the "kind" thing, the "civil" thing or the "loving" thing, but it is certainly their right to do so. The whole idea of an affair is about no strings - well one of those strings is having "rights" in the relationship. There are none - not on either side.

 

In regards to an OP expecting truth and honesty from a MP "because they have no reason to lie" - pardon me, I'm still laughing uncontrollably . The MP has just as many reasons to lie to the AP as they do to the BS - possibly even more. Much depends upon the reason for having the affair in the first place. Exit affairs may be somewhat of an exception. But there are a lot of reasons for affairs, and to assume that affair partners are telling the truth is probably one of the biggest mistakes a person can make.

 

BTW - an assumption that has been stated many times in this thread is that the BS has lost respect for their spouse over the years, and that this has in some way contributed to the existence of an affair. That is no more a "truth" than many other assumptions - and again, it is placing "blame" for the affair on the spouse (the lost respect). I can't say it enough - the BS shares responsibility for the state of the marriage - but NOT for the affair. What the BS has or has not done during the marriage did NOT cause the affair - the poor coping skills of the MP is the cause of the affair; especially if it is not an exit affair.

[MissBee]

It's no different than the teenager who lies to his/her parents but tells the best friend everything. The best friend expects honesty and the truth even though he/she knows the teenager is lying at home.

 

It is a bit different I'd say, in that teens lie to their parents so as not to get into trouble, whereas they can't really get into trouble with their friend and don't need to lie to maintain the friendship. Often MM lie to the OW so as to obscure the reality of their situation and keep them in the A. It may not be the case in all affairs...it depends on what the OW is willing to put up with and whether or not the MM feels that unless he obscures the truth she won't go along for the ride.

 

I think most affairs including lying to the OW as well. You say there is no reason to, well sometimes there is a reason to. If an OW wants things he can't give, he may promise these things to keep her content even if he won't do it. If an OW seems like she would only be in an A for love and if he is going to eventually leave, a MM who has no such intention may pretend he does. It depends on the OW and how she is and what she wants that determine the kinds of lies. There ofcourse are OW who act as the MM's therapist who pick out gifts for the wife, plan his vacations with the wife, counsel him on his relationship (I have heard OW on LS say this) and don't expect him to leave...so in such cases, that seem rarer to me, perhaps he doesn't lie to this woman at all and she is his therapist/bestfirend/counselor whom no matter what he does she will be there.

 

In my case, I don't know what he lied about but I know that he omitted the truth or just avoided certain topics so as not to have to lie. But to believe that I was receiving full disclosure...welll I was smart enough to know that that was not true. Maybe the MM does not lie to the OW; however, perhaps she simply does not receive full disclosure.

Edited April 20, 2012 by MissBee

[Gentlegirl2]

I DO owe xMM big time.

 

I phoned him one evening when I knew I was very very ill and couldn't drive.

 

He cameand drove me to hospital, where I was diagnosed with acute kidney failure. He stayed until he knew I was stable. If it hadn't been for him I most probably would not be here typing this today.

 

I owe him my life because the doctors said I would have been dead in 12 hours without mediacl assistance.

 

For that I 'owe' him and am always grateful.

 

GG

[wannabdone]

Personally I owe my xMM a swift kick to the balls.

 

Just sayin....

 

[trinity1]

...in that teens lie to their parents so as not to get into trouble, whereas they can't really get into trouble with their friend and don't need to lie to maintain the friendship.

 

That's exactly what I was getting at.