RiverRunning Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 If I didn't have to work, it would be awesome to spend my time writing or getting more involved in some charities. I've actually received Red Cross training to be a volunteer, but I rarely have the time to devote to it. I'm usually working. It would be nice to have freedom and liberation from bills. To some extent, my ex offered me that - but I had my own bills to pay. I felt incredibly guilty in the short span during which we lived together that I wasn't working. I just couldn't do that again, I don't think. I need to bring in SOME semblance of an income for my own sense of self-worth.
ForgetMeNots Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 Actually I have been thinking about something similar to this on a very deep level. I am an artist, and love to be at home and producing more paitings and digital art. The only problem is that without working a 2nd job, I would not be able to do what I love on the income I make from it alone. There is just not enough time to balance the 2 out,at least until I hit a big art company or become more known,though that is not te obkective of why I do art(It is truly a passion and hobby). If I was a kept woman, the worry and stress of that 2nd job would dissapate and if my would be SO understands my passion for doing art, then I would be all for it. Though the downside would be if my SO would not understand and pretty much just wants me to be stay at home babymachine and housemaid. I would not mind being at home, taking care of the kids and doing some of the housework and laundry to keep things in order and once in awhile a homecooked meal. But if I get no help with any of the house work or kids, and expected to make dinner from scratch everyday,and practically no time left to do any art projects or paintings,while everyday being "dutily" chained to the house. I think I would prefer what I am doing now and remain single rather than being "kept." Though that is just my own fear and the extreme example case of being "kept" by someone who is not exactly right for me. Though I have watched a couple of my friends in this small town go through that nightmare scenerio that I have described and are extremely unhappy and bored at home.
xxoo Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 ooh. this sparks more direction to this topic. Do we REALLY WANT to break out of these roles, or... at our baser, instictual level would we prefer the man/provider, woman/nester thing. All the woman I knew in a deep, DEEP level, down along side all the things women never like to admit to themselves let alone other people, they all longed for role definition like that. And I know many men like it too.... man, nother better than seeing that smile on our gals face when we provide something, ANYTHING: money, love, intimacy, a surprise flower, a child, a house, a car, some time.... whatever. I'm not saying that is everyone, not saying that works, not fist pounding that is how it should be, just discussing it. Are we fundementally happier with our confusing and swapping roles of today or is that just how society has made it (because it is the most profitable), we accept it, take our meds, and plan our overly complicated lives in our iPad and everything is fine? Not everyone wants to break out of these roles, but we will all benefit if we break out of the expectations. Not every man or woman will fit neatly into these traditional roles. Some will, and some won't. We benefit by having the flexibility to find our own best role, as individuals, without society telling us that we should be good at and enjoy based on our gender.
zengirl Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 real quickly, this stems from my personal experiences with women... first, there seems to almost always be things women can not admit EVER aloud to themselve or anybody. bad example, an anorexic girl telling herself and others she is TOO FAT. deep down somewhere buried she KNOWS she is not too fat, if nothing else, just comparing to other women's dress sizes if she is a 1 or 0 or whatever and everyone else averages a 3 (I don't know real numbers) yet she REALLY BELEIVES she is too fat. I don't get the analogy. The mindset of anorexia is often complex and not really about the weight, yes, and they can intellectually "know" (or pretend to know, more often, because they understand what is expected rationally, just as we all "know" 2 + 2 even if we really thought otherwise because we understand 4 is the expected answer) they're not fat, but what they believe is truly what they believe. The "know" you're speaking of is just leeway they'll give rationality when forced to. And these girls I know were all self supporting, career driven, hard core women who were successful and indepedent. Yet, under all that surface distraction was the little girl wanting to be wisked off to a castle and protected by her Prince. Yes, fantasy, but completely acheivable if you redraw the landscape and clothing. IF one allows this to exist. I'm not sure what you mean by this either. You mean, they wanted to give up their careers, get married, have babies, and stay in the home, but they were afraid to admit that to themselves or others? How would you ever glean that information then if they never admitted it? I do think we can be busy chiseling away at knowing ourselves and it can take time. There were times I thought, because of socialization, I might want to have kids. I luckily realized it wasn't what I actually wanted and I'd secretly been sabotaging relationships that might lead to pregnancy and children all along. Certainly we do that, but until we admit it to ourselves and others, it's relatively unknown. No one "knew" how I felt any better than I did. I simply hadn't decided how I really felt yet. Feelings aren't just THERE; we do have to decide about them quite often. So . . . I'm still missing what you mean. At first I disagreed with this, then read it a few more times and realized we were going at the same point from entirely different directions. My initial reference to the "natural order of things" was to underscore how we are as a species when you get right down to base instincts and evolutionary urges. It's fairly obvious in all aspects (health, reproduction, psychology, etc.) that industrialized societies are removed from that natural order, but, like you said, we have no idea what it really is. We can hypothesize and speculate and masturbate over the idea all we want to, but at the end of all of it the only constant among the majority of societies is that women are primary caregivers until weaning, which is more a biological imperative (in the absence of formula) than a cultural norm. Yes, I think the "natural order" is a phrase often used the same way "the good old days" is used to keep things from moving and changing and growing is all. Since we cannot know what it is, why assume anything about it? Let's just try to figure out what's best for us in the here and now.
RedRobin Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 (edited) just to recenter, my very first line: "General very broad, sweeping question:" I made this thread to bolster interesting internet discussion only. I'm not a caveman, nor live in the segmented roles I'm talking about, and all of my GFs have been the very strong willed, independent types. Yet, still deep in thier core.... And I am not looking for dates, or seeking a nest mate... just online to discuss interesting if not bizaar angles on topics that might interest others. And I shouldn't have put so much emphesis on the "KEPT" part as I sort of just meant that as a playful description, not a TRULY kept, isolated, boy toy. May bad (back pedle back pedle) I respect, appreciate, and enjoy all the ideas and opinons I'm reading here. Continue! Hope we can keep it interesting and civil to avoid locks and infractions like my last thread I think you are best served by taking a woman's word at face value. My ex-H seemed to think "at my core" I had different plans for my life than I explained very fully and demonstrated completely. He had plenty of people telling him (unfortunately) that all he had to do was make things nice and 'safe' for me, then I"d feel comfortable being a SAHM. WRONG. Not only was it wrong. It felt like the biggest betrayal of my LIFE to have a man who I thought really loved me for ME be so, well, manipulative. I can't tell you how many men have crossed my path who wanted to believe the above. I have close female friends who are married to men who used to believe what you believe too. To the point where they just couldn't stop telling themselves... oh, after we get married she'll be like THIS... Oh, now that she had a baby, she'll be like THIS. WRONG. She didn't 'change' at all. She knew herself really really well. Just like I do. She was completely upfront about her goals and beliefs up front. He nearly threw their new marriage into the waste bin with his BS beliefs and desire to mold her into the little wifey of his dreams. There is something else I'm reading in your posts too. That you believe women don't know what they want. Some don't. Especially young ones. Still, I'll say it again. It is VERY dangerous to believe this. You might just end up divorced over it should you decide you rather believe in 'evolution' over what the person you claim to love tells you about herself. Edited April 18, 2012 by RedRobin 1
Author wwwjd Posted April 18, 2012 Author Posted April 18, 2012 How would you ever glean that information then if they never admitted it? It was admitted, VERBALLY, sometimes in tears, sometimes just through very long, deep, hard conversations. Wasn't leading them, wasn't provoking on any level, just talking about life, wants, needs, desires, preceptions, reality, love, hate, purpose... those kinds of talks. Then we did it. HA! Naw, totally kidding there for shock value only. Was a very vulnerable place though, for the both of us.
zengirl Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 It was admitted, VERBALLY, sometimes in tears, sometimes just through very long, deep, hard conversations. Wasn't leading them, wasn't provoking on any level, just talking about life, wants, needs, desires, preceptions, reality, love, hate, purpose... those kinds of talks. Then we did it. HA! Naw, totally kidding there for shock value only. Was a very vulnerable place though, for the both of us. Well, then it was admitted to themselves and others. So I'm confused as to what you meant in the original statement. I thought you were saying you were reading their minds. At any rate, all people are confused about their choices sometimes. No one should feel ashamed or boxed in by gender roles, and we need to do better at that for women and men -- that's always my view. Saying men aren't nurturing is a step in the wrong direction, for instance. So is saying men NEED to work to find value in their lives. But saying women can't find value in their lives as a SAHM is wrong, too.
Author wwwjd Posted April 18, 2012 Author Posted April 18, 2012 I think you are best served by taking a woman's word at face value. whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. whoa. I believe your personal experiences to be turth, but almost every guy that likes girls KNOWS women do not always say what the mean. It's one of our biggest intersex communication problems ever. Women may WISH us to listen and believe what they are saying, but luckily we know better than that much of the time. Ask any guy, I bet almost all of them have experienced that. Sorry to focus on your one line there, but it seems like a major direction pointer thingy or whatever word I'm failing to conjur at this time
veggirl Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 I would be scared to be dependent on one person, but I think individuals in our society generally over-estimate their "independence", probably because many of the relationships we depend on have been commodified. We're embedded in relationships of inter-dependence, be it at work (my boss needs me, but I need my job), to feed ourselves, in our health care system. I also hope we depend on our families and friends for support, morale boosters, etc. As such, I would gladly accept a relationship of interdependence with a man. I personally love the feeling of protection I get when I'm in a relationship. I'm pretty good on my own, but there is something wonderful about knowing someone in your life has your back. On the kept, I won't comment, as it has been retracted. It hardly makes sense to me - I tend to do things I'm passionate about. Turns out, I'm passionate about my job. I could be as equally passionate about keeping house - which I view as a valuable contribution. Great thought, I agree completely. It doesn't really go along with what I said, or what the thread is about I don't think....of course we're all dependent on others, no one has refuted that or argued that we aren't I don't think. But what the OP is describing is not "I depend on someone for a job, I depend on my friends when I need help moving furniture or need someone to cry to". What I got more from his post was a "all my eggs in one basket" type of thing--the woman in his scenario is completely dependent on him. I don't want to be completely dependent on ONE person, and that's what I was saying.
RedRobin Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 Here's a question, OP. Why are you so bent on converting 'career' women into a SAHM? Why not just find a woman who says up front she wants to be a SAHM?
RedRobin Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 (edited) whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. whoa. I believe your personal experiences to be turth, but almost every guy that likes girls KNOWS women do not always say what the mean. It's one of our biggest intersex communication problems ever. Women may WISH us to listen and believe what they are saying, but luckily we know better than that much of the time. Ask any guy, I bet almost all of them have experienced that. Sorry to focus on your one line there, but it seems like a major direction pointer thingy or whatever word I'm failing to conjur at this time I'm telling you... on something as major as kids and life goals... you had BETTER believe she says what she means. Would you prefer a woman not trust YOU to say what you mean and mean what you say? Sounds like pretty dangerous territory, especially if you are hoping for a situation where she is completely dependent on you. I am a bit perplexed though, why you would rather convert a 'career' women into a SAHM than find someone who says up front she wants to be a SAHM. This whole conversation is starting to feel a bit condescending (women don't know what they want) and manipulative (I know what she secretly wants, and will do what it takes to bend her to my will). Edited April 18, 2012 by RedRobin 1
Author wwwjd Posted April 18, 2012 Author Posted April 18, 2012 I never wanted to convert anybody. It was just something interesting I found in the background. It doesn't work like that for the majority anyway. This is 2012.
RedRobin Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 I have another explanation why your girlfriend cried. She gave you the answer she thought you wanted to hear because she was afraid of losing you. Even if you can get said 'career' woman to go along with your desires, she will resent you and you will be poisoning your relationship. I fear you are walking a treacherous path, my friend. 1
Author wwwjd Posted April 18, 2012 Author Posted April 18, 2012 page 5. topic has run out and there is no place but incorrect assumptions and bad directions to go from here. I think it's time to move on
AD1980 Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 Theyres billions of us the idea that each Man thinks exactly the same and has the same personality and needs and fits into a box and the same with women is pretty out there 2
xxoo Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. whoa. I believe your personal experiences to be turth, but almost every guy that likes girls KNOWS women do not always say what the mean. It's one of our biggest intersex communication problems ever. Women may WISH us to listen and believe what they are saying, but luckily we know better than that much of the time. Ask any guy, I bet almost all of them have experienced that. Sorry to focus on your one line there, but it seems like a major direction pointer thingy or whatever word I'm failing to conjur at this time Are you certain that women don't say what they mean? Or is it possible that some of the miscommunication rests on the receiving end? That is not to blame men, but to say that the communication problems are a two-way street.
Author wwwjd Posted April 18, 2012 Author Posted April 18, 2012 Didi I say I was trying to bend anyone? I'm just talking about experiences I had that were interesting to note. SOME of those women were NOT my GFs, just very close friends that we talk about anything.
2sure Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 I was a single mom with a job that didnt pay enough for child care and all of my other expenses . I did get help from someone I was in a relationship with - my rent was paid, my car was bought. It certainly made it easier - but I never felt independent OR kept. I dont think I wanted to be a SAHM - especially with just one child. We both would have been bored. I of course do know women who do not work, having husbands that are able to earn enough to cover everything comfortably - including a full or part time Nanny. But they arent Kept either . They are a vital and participating member of the parenting team & style Chosen by both the H and the W. Kept. Phhhp.
Author wwwjd Posted April 18, 2012 Author Posted April 18, 2012 AAARGH! Lock this thread! QUICK!! hahahahahahaa
2sure Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 I think its easier to work than stay home. Maybe not Better - but I couldnt do it.
RedRobin Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 (edited) Never mind... Edited April 18, 2012 by RedRobin
SteveC80 Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 I dont think its fair to say every women deep down thinks this way but ive noticed the "alpha" women so to speak i dated who were assertive loud agressive types deep down wanted to feel feminine and vulnerable and be that submissive little women lead by the big strong knight in shining armor man
sid3 Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 AAARGH! Lock this thread! QUICK!! hahahahahahaa Why? Because you suddenly don't like the responses...I think you can learn quite a bit from the ladies.
Author wwwjd Posted April 18, 2012 Author Posted April 18, 2012 Why? Because you suddenly don't like the responses...I think you can learn quite a bit from the ladies. Did you even READ everything on all 5 pages?
ASG Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 I was having a conversation like this with one of my best friends yesterday. I don't want to be a kept woman. Ever. I want to have my own money! But I would love tp be so filthy rich that I had to do absolutely nothing for the rest of my life. I would fill my days with books, tv shows, computer games, the internet in general and whatever else I could think of. Plus my amazing social life(it is amazing as it is). I would travel the world, go see every tennis masters and just do whatever I pleased! So yeah, I would love to not do anything and have everything provided for me... but I'd want to own the money myself, thank you very much!
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