Author wwwjd Posted April 21, 2012 Author Posted April 21, 2012 Apparently guys react badly to women dying in warfare. yeah... that's a shame, huh? Sorry. HAD to get that in. Must collides with our natural role... er... instinct to PROTECT But you don't have to join OUR manly army. You can make your own because you are equal to the task. good luck with that.
Mme. Chaucer Posted April 21, 2012 Posted April 21, 2012 Our cultures did not move away from tribal lifestyles just to be obtuse. Changes occurred and continue to occur because the needs of society have required them. If you want to go back to a primitive culture where gender roles are absolutely defined and unquestioned, maybe it's possible to join one. Or perhaps you might consider a fundamentalist group like the FLDS. Warren Jeffs kind of had it going on with the keeping and protecting of his wives.
udolipixie Posted April 21, 2012 Posted April 21, 2012 I actually considered bringing that up, but I don't have any data on it either way so I didn't. I kind of assume men hold the weight lifting records, but don't know for sure. More proof we are not equals. neither better or worse, but not equal, just different. As I stated before interesting that to many men when the question of humans not being equal it's only to the genders. All men will likely never be equal. Plenty of guys more handsome than other guys, more intelligent than other guys, bigger below than other guys All women will likely never be equal. Plenty of gals more pretty than other gals and more intelligent than other gals. Rarely do many men who apply inequality to the genders think men are not equal or the races aren't equal. Inequality seems limited to the genders for many men. udolipixie, I may have missed it 5 pages ago, but what was your answer? If it was an option, would you like to be a loved, protected, provided for, "kept" woman? Like maybe, stay home all day messing about in a garden, doing whatever hobbie you want (sewing, crosswords, rock climbing, whatever) MAYBE cooking the dinner IF you wanted - or maybe a maid or service does this, hanging with girlfriends, shopping, have kids if you want, be a stay at home mom if you wanted, and feeling pampered and loved and cared for and charished without having the stress of bringing home money for mortgage, car payments, cell phones etc, or job stress? Yes I'd like that as I live it now. I love, protect, provide for, and keep myself. There's no stress about money matters for me. To me in the age of equality, enlightenment, woman's rights, and independent gals one doesn't need a man for that kind of life if it appeals to them. They only need a man if they want that kind of life to be given to them by a man. Could you find happiness allowing a man the gift of loving and supporting you fully and happily? with him wanting you to do all you want, or as little as you want? as long as everyone is happy, commited and content? Most likely not. I'm already happy and content right now and he's not giving me a gift I don't already have and am giving myself. He is giving me a complication a relationship or marriage and pros/cons that come with it. To me it'd be more like burdening my life as this gift I already have now comes with relationship dynamics, support, connection, and sex. Few of which I think are favorable to me as a heterosexual woman.
udolipixie Posted April 21, 2012 Posted April 21, 2012 yeah... that's a shame, huh? It is to me. It keeps the draft from being equal. It limits the number of people in our country's forces. Reacting badly during warfare can be fatal and a setback. Interesting how many want to keep women out of warfare because of periods but men generally reacting badly aka freaking out when a woman dies doesn't have many questioning if men should be in warfare. Must collides with our natural role... er... instinct to PROTECT As much as many men claim this instinct to protect particularly women I rarely see or hear it. I think it's more of an instinct to protect loved ones. As from my experiences this instinct to protect particularly women only commonly hows for women they love/care for. In extreme cases it shows for women they know (aka women in combat). Women in general don't seem to apply I see far more men berating, degrading, insulting, and demeaning women than protecting. Perhaps this natural role exists but isn't being followed because if it were I would think advice would exist for women to yell fire rather than rape if being raped or there's an attempt wouldn't exist. Nor would so many men be excusing, diminishing, downplaying, or blame shifting rape, sexual harassment, and sexual assault. But you don't have to join OUR manly army. You can make your own because you are equal to the task. good luck with that. Our manly army..are you dismissing the women already in the army, navy, and etc? Wouldn't it be more beneficial to have a united force?
Author wwwjd Posted April 21, 2012 Author Posted April 21, 2012 Our cultures did not move away from tribal lifestyles just to be obtuse. Changes occurred and continue to occur because the needs of society have required them. If you want to go back to a primitive culture where gender roles are absolutely defined and unquestioned, maybe it's possible to join one. Or perhaps you might consider a fundamentalist group like the FLDS. Warren Jeffs kind of had it going on with the keeping and protecting of his wives. You don't go to night clubs anymore, do you. Night clubs only exist thanks to the REQUIREMENT to keep the tribal mate selection and baser roles alive. I already covered that some pages back
Author wwwjd Posted April 21, 2012 Author Posted April 21, 2012 Rarely do many men who apply inequality to the genders think men are not equal or the races aren't equal. Inequality seems limited to the genders for many men but this is a specific discussion ABOUT the sexes, not the races. or politics. or religion. or the mating habits of the south african stink bugs... it's about men and women, even the gay stuff doesn't apply here. We ARE different, which also means we are not equal. neither better or worse, just not equal.
Author wwwjd Posted April 21, 2012 Author Posted April 21, 2012 Wouldn't it be more beneficial to have a united force? Not gonna happen. But, since you can believe men and women can be equals, women are free to create an equal army. As an equal to men, it should be easy. Heck, just copy our guy-army as a blueprint and should take no time at all. You might even be able to improve on it. Like I said... Good luck with that.
Author wwwjd Posted April 21, 2012 Author Posted April 21, 2012 What the heck is a "kept" women? A word wrongly used as a humorous and quick description, capable of derailing a thread faster than any other.
udolipixie Posted April 21, 2012 Posted April 21, 2012 but this is a specific discussion ABOUT the sexes, not the races. or politics. or religion. or the mating habits of the south african stink bugs... I know what the discussion is about. As men/women are people me talking about how many men don't apply inequality when discussing people in general does apply here to me. I was stating it seems for many men inequality only comes when talking about genders. Rarely do the we're not equal bit come into play when talking about people in general. Generally people are different trait wise which also means they are not equal. Yet differences means we're not equal seems for many men only apply to genders not people in general. Seems differences means we're not equal only applies when the difference is genitals. There's rarely the notion of people aren't equal that: All men will likely never be equal. Plenty of guys more handsome than other guys, more intelligent than other guys, bigger below than other guys All women will likely never be equal. Plenty of gals more pretty than other gals and more intelligent than other gals. it's about men and women, even the gay stuff doesn't apply here. Quite unsure where you got "the gay stuff" from my post.
udolipixie Posted April 21, 2012 Posted April 21, 2012 Not gonna happen. But, since you can believe men and women can be equals, women are free to create an equal army. As an equal to men, it should be easy. Heck, just copy our guy-army as a blueprint and should take no time at all. You might even be able to improve on it. Like I said... Good luck with that. Hasn't it already happened as there are men and women in the army? Our guy-army..are you dismissing the women already in the army, navy, and etc? To me it'd make more sense for women to just join the existing army. Quite unsure why they'd have to create a new one when one already exists. Why would believing men and women can be equals mean that women have to create a separate army? I'd think being equals means being able to partake in the same group/organization that isn't defined by a gender factor rather than having to create your own because of your gender with restrooms being the exception.
Author wwwjd Posted April 21, 2012 Author Posted April 21, 2012 I was stating it seems for many men inequality only comes when talking about genders. Rarely do the we're not equal bit come into play when talking about people in general. ok.... how is any of this applicable to a discussion about the two sexes? I mean, that is what this IS about. We are talking about 2 sexes here: male and female, not 6 billion individual people that are all different adn unequal. We can talk about how nobody is equal in another thread. THIS thread is talking about roles for TWO SEXES... ... so... what does "men not talking about the inequality between men or races or spare ribs" or anything have anything to do with a talk about TWO sexes? I'm really not tracking you here.
Author wwwjd Posted April 21, 2012 Author Posted April 21, 2012 Why would believing men and women can be equals mean that women have to create a separate army? we are getting so circular, my head is spinning. Why can't you join our guy army? Because of the way males react seeing their females blown apart. That is why joining is NOT GONNA HAPPEN. So, because it is NOT GONNA HAPPEN, I guess the only thing to do would be to create your own army made of all these women that are our equals. And it will be easy because women are equal... right? Wait what? Go for it. and around and around we go.
udolipixie Posted April 21, 2012 Posted April 21, 2012 ok.... how is any of this applicable to a discussion about the two sexes? I mean, that is what this IS about. We are talking about 2 sexes here: male and female, not 6 billion individual people that are all different adn unequal. We can talk about how nobody is equal in another thread. THIS thread is talking about roles for TWO SEXES... ... so... what does "men not talking about the inequality between men or races or spare ribs" or anything have anything to do with a talk about TWO sexes? I'm really not tracking you here. The sexes are people right? The topic is inequality right? The defense is "we're different so we're not equal" right? To me it's applicable in showing the "we're different so we're not equal" seems for many men to only apply to the genders not to people. I'm stating that it's telling to me how this "we're different so we're not equal" defense many men have about the genders. That inequality in any sense or being different means inequality only seems to comes when talking about genders. Rarely do the "we're not equal" or "we're different so we're not equal" bit come into play for many men when talking about people in general.
udolipixie Posted April 21, 2012 Posted April 21, 2012 we are getting so circular, my head is spinning. Because of the way males react seeing their females blown apart. That is why joining is NOT GONNA HAPPEN. So, because it is NOT GONNA HAPPEN, I guess the only thing to do would be to create your own army made of all these women that are our equals. And it will be easy because women are equal... right? Wait what? Go for it. and around and around we go. Again when using the term guy army are you are you dismissing the women already in the army, navy, and etc? It has already happened. Women are already in the army and in combat despite men reacting badly to women dying in warfare. So if women are already in the army why would would believing men and women can be equals mean that women have to create a separate army? Why would creating an army made of women be the only thing to do when women can already join the army and are in the army?
sally4sara Posted April 21, 2012 Posted April 21, 2012 I feel politics is a real bad place to go with this and I will refrain saying just that politics is now a "media circus" where as before it was not so now it is kinda completely different and unrelated to this thread. Unfortunately. I do know what you are saying but I'm not going there because it is politics and that will destroy this thread. What a crock! Destroy this thread?! You mean you won't "go there" because you can't think of a good counter point. You're right. We are not equals and it seems you and I will never be. 3
zengirl Posted April 21, 2012 Posted April 21, 2012 (edited) Come on... extrapolate with me a little bit.... where are the Woman's Pro football leagues or Male cheer leading squads? There are actually male cheerleaders and female football players in the world. The fact that people are socialized to find them strange because of the gender biases still built into our socialization (that work against women and men) probably makes them less profitable and is why there isn't a pro team. "Football" is a terrible example though because it's only an American sport. Soccer and basketball -- sports with far more worldwide appeal -- both have reasonably successful female pro teams. Not as successful as the male teams, but the female teams have been around and acceptable much less time, so that makes sense. Instead of an external planet, we could seek out totally primative tribes that have both sexes in them, aren't clouded with OUR silly society and customs, and see what happens within their basic role systems. Men hunt, women nest (Of course, class of 2012, there are always exceptions) There is also socialization in these tribes. You're pretending that socialization is ever natural, and we've yet to see that really. When you find a tribe, it's going to have society and customs -- it's own -- that date back hundreds of years in many cases. Why are we fighting against our obvious reality: that "sexist" roles exist by default, whether we choose to admit it or believe it or not. That's a rather sexist attitude that gets us nowhere. We ARE self defeating saying "a woman can be everything a man can be"... yeah? Where are the woman's football leagues, the Woman's UFC, the majority populated woman's army? All those women that are stepping up to hand over the child rearing duties to the stay home daddys while she goes to work 14 hour days? We could easily have more women in the army --- there are actually A LOT of women in the army today and will probably be more in the future. I also know SAHDs who have wives with high-powered careers. There are a lot more today than there used to be. 40 years ago, there were few, if any, black people in any pro sports, the police force, or the army. What about today? Once they were accepted into those places -- not just allowed but truly accepted -- many black people flourished in all three of those fields. They are 3 of the fields I find many young black men most excited about or interested in, in fact. The idea of using history -- where sexist or racist biases were enforced, and where they are still somewhat embedded in our socialization (you don't get rid of this stuff overnight, much as our society is trying) -- is silly. And "A man can be everything a woman can be"... yeah? Where's that one guy in all of history that carried a child for 9 months and then gave birth? where is that majority count of stay home dads? Where is a man who's monthly chemical imbalance makes him go from laughing to crying and regretting life in less than a minute? Men can't be pregnant, no, but they can do anything else. Personally, I don't have a monthly chemical imbalance that makes me go from laughing to crying and regretting life in less than a minute -- and I find that characterization of a woman's cycle highly offensive. Why are you so scared of menstruation? If it weren't for the impact to sex life and the fact that it deserves pre-emptive warning in that effect, hubby would have no idea I was menstruating or about to menstruate --- and no one else ever has any idea. I guess there are women who use that as some kind of handicap, but unless they have an actual physical condition from it that causes debilitating pain (which is no different than being physically impaired in any other way), I see no reason to use it as such or for it to be as such. MEN AND WOMEN WILL NEVER BE EQUAL. Never. Wow, crappy thing to say. I'm not surprised YOU feel that way after this thread, but I don't think everyone does. I know many men who believe in gender equality and its benefits for men and women. You don't go to night clubs anymore, do you. Night clubs only exist thanks to the REQUIREMENT to keep the tribal mate selection and baser roles alive. I already covered that some pages back I don't think that's really what night clubs do at all, and I don't think many people use them for mate selection, actually. Edited April 21, 2012 by zengirl 1
Author wwwjd Posted April 21, 2012 Author Posted April 21, 2012 The sexes are people right? The topic is inequality right? I will AGREE with you people rarely talk about "inequality" when talking about other groups. [head scratch....] THIS topic is only talking about inequality and/or difference tween sexes. I just don't get how PROVING people don't talk about inequality much between other groups: guys, football stars, or the other 6 billion people has any relevence to THIS thread. Yes, they maybe don't talk about inequality in other groups... maybe they do... who cares? Other than your pointing out that people don't talk about inequality being used for other groups. Moot. Who cares? Seems like a bizaar tangent to run off on that doesn't serve THIS discussion on any level. So, other don't talk MUCH inequality in other comparisons. So??? We'll agree. Are we done with that now? Do you think we should change where everyone else uses the term 'Unequal' 'inequality' or whatever? I can't come back to this tangent. It just doesn't make any sense here. Are you saying MEN pull the inequality card most of the time, and women pull the EQUALITY card? Ok. Again... so? That's how it is. Doesn't change the fact men and women will always be different and not equal. I'm saying "Guy army" because we are pigeon holing it as that since more guys populate it than women - IN COMBAT ON THE FIELD. In my head "Guys army" reasons out to "There are more guys than gals there" so guy army is just easier to type. In live conversation it probably would have made sense and worked OBVIOSLY, I never want to belittle all the women that ARE in the army in any way. I love women, and am really not a pig. Just trying to say GUYS populate the ARMY more with less typing.
Author wwwjd Posted April 21, 2012 Author Posted April 21, 2012 What a crock! Destroy this thread?! You mean you won't "go there" because you can't think of a good counter point. You're right. We are not equals and it seems you and I will never be. Sara, if you are unfamiliar with "conversations", religion and politics are the two most heated conversations ANYWHERE between any peoples. There are plenty of other places on the net for that. This place concerns sexes, relationships etc. I simply tend to TRY to stay out of religion and politics debates online AND in real life. It's not you, it's me.
Author wwwjd Posted April 21, 2012 Author Posted April 21, 2012 (edited) "MEN AND WOMEN WILL NEVER BE EQUAL. Never." Wow, crappy thing to say. I'm not surprised YOU feel that way after this thread, but I don't think everyone does. I know many men who believe in gender equality and its benefits for men and women. I'd like to focus on this for a sec... In my experience, this phrase causes issues with women because of our basic communications differences. Even though I repeat over and over "Neither better or worse than the other, just different" the "Not Equal" part seems to get perceived that the woman is "less" maybe? Not trying to tell you what you think.... sort of asking? Why does this statement rile women up so much? If a girl said it to me, I wold agree and move on. MEN and WOMEN ARE different, this means not equals. Trying to make them so is a waste of time. 'A' is a letter. '3' is a number. They are both similar, used as written communication and have purpose A is DIFFERENT than 3. A <> 3 3 <> A There is no way to EQUAL A to 3 because they are totally different while still being useful in the same way. Each has their strengths and faults. ... but they will never be equal. [was gonna use SALT and PEPPER as an example before someone pipes in "yeah but there are only 10 number, and 26 letters, you ditz!" but was afraid someone would try to make that a racial thing ] So, if girls want to read that above statement as making them LESSER than man, well, I can't change someone else's perception about that. I'm not saying that at all. You might be reading that into it. But, if you look at my other equations previously, women are actually worth more than men, can do more than man, and therefore probably more valuable. Maybe that is why we hate seeing you blown apart on the battlefield because WE LOVE YOU! Isn't that terrible? Edited April 21, 2012 by wwwjd
Mme. Chaucer Posted April 21, 2012 Posted April 21, 2012 You don't go to night clubs anymore, do you. Night clubs only exist thanks to the REQUIREMENT to keep the tribal mate selection and baser roles alive. I already covered that some pages back Whether I go anymore or not, I have plenty of experience with night life. Are you trying to tell me that in my years out of club scenes, they have become "tribal" beyond my ability to comprehend? Anyway, that was a lame thing to say in the context of this thread of yours. Do you think that the "tribal mate selection" that you claim is played out in night clubs has anything to do with a man wanting to "protect and keep" his woman? Or a woman seeking protection and to be provided for? Do you think that typical night club behavior should be the deciding factor in how lifelong decisions are made? Evidently you do, since you keep telling all of us that the primitive societies had it right and we are lying to ourselves if we claim we don't want to return to those halcyon years of sickness, massive infant mortality, childbirth death, and slavery - and that this golden era is played out accurately in night clubs today. Sheesh, dude. Why do you ask people to "extrapolate with you" and then fail to extrapolate at all? All you do is insist that you're right and then exhibit a very simplistic and poor grasp of anthropology to support your claims.
Author wwwjd Posted April 21, 2012 Author Posted April 21, 2012 fun story: 6 foot 2 guy lifting weights. 5'9" girl walks up and snarks, "Hey, tough guy! I'm your EQUAL! I can bench 210lbs! What are you benching??" Guy says, "320 on a good day" "Oh, well that's one thing. Let's go play tennis!" He beats her on the court by 5 points with many blazing fireballs at her where she jumped out of the way. "Hmmmph." She says, "well, I'm a Female Seal in the Marines and can out drink you... lets go tip some glasses!!!!" Sometime later, due to body size and consumption factors, she's completely plowed and he is still humming along. She slams her empty shot glass on the bar, and slurrs," ya know... ya know what, big guy?? Ya ya you're right.... we're not equal. I know this now.... be be... ya know.... because... I'll tell ya why because why... why we're not equal.... becuase *I* can make a baby!!" The big guy drops his head onto the bar with a heavy thud, and tears well up in his eyes. She was right. They aren't equals and he knew it. She was better.
sid3 Posted April 21, 2012 Posted April 21, 2012 fun story: 6 foot 2 guy lifting weights. 5'9" girl walks up and snarks, "Hey, tough guy! I'm your EQUAL! I can bench 210lbs! What are you benching??" Guy says, "320 on a good day" "Oh, well that's one thing. Let's go play tennis!" He beats her on the court by 5 points with many blazing fireballs at her where she jumped out of the way. "Hmmmph." She says, "well, I'm a Female Seal in the Marines and can out drink you... lets go tip some glasses!!!!" Sometime later, due to body size and consumption factors, she's completely plowed and he is still humming along. She slams her empty shot glass on the bar, and slurrs," ya know... ya know what, big guy?? Ya ya you're right.... we're not equal. I know this now.... be be... ya know.... because... I'll tell ya why because why... why we're not equal.... becuase *I* can make a baby!!" The big guy drops his head onto the bar with a heavy thud, and tears well up in his eyes. She was right. They aren't equals and he knew it. She was better. What was fun about that story?
Author wwwjd Posted April 21, 2012 Author Posted April 21, 2012 Why do you ask people to "extrapolate with you" and then fail to extrapolate at all? All you do is insist that you're right and then exhibit a very simplistic and poor grasp of anthropology to support your claims. Because after all our posturing and patting ourselves on the back about how modern we are, how far we've come, had advanced we are into equalities and all that, VAST MAJORITIES still flock to clubs every Friday and Saturday night to take part in the ritualistic SEX ROLE REDEFINING, tearing away all those modern constructs we've worked so hard to build up. Women put on extra tribel paints, LESS loin cloth and dance the mating dance. And a very large percentage are hostly there to get f****d - this is known because a large percentage DO get f****d. And the guys only go because they know this. Yes, there is relationship mate selection going on there also. Why does this keep going on? Why aren't all the clubs closed due to lack of business these days? Everywhere I have ever been, they are all doing extremely well on Friday and Saturday nights. Honestly, I have very little experience with participating in night life and this has been my personal choice in life (and I'm very happy with it). Maybe being further away from it makes it easy to see how it is? Doesn't mean I can't see or hear what is going on. Did I ever claim to be some anthopologist expert whatever? I can probably quote where I said I WASN'T anything special. But, I have eyes and a reasoning brain...
Mme. Chaucer Posted April 21, 2012 Posted April 21, 2012 I disagree that sex roles have been "redefined." I think that they have expanded. We don't need big men to kill dangerous prey for our dinners these days. A woman can still have value in society whether she bears children or not, and after her childbearing years are over. Gay men and lesbians can contribute as much value to society as straight people. So men and women have evolved to embrace characteristics that far outreach the narrow parameters that used to confine us. If a woman wants to be "kept and protected" by you, spend her days shopping and gardening and maybe cooking dinner if she feels like it, to refer back to your OP, and you are up for that - it's a choice that's available for both of you. If a woman wants to be president and CEO of PepsiCo, for one example, I doubt she is selling herself short by not choosing instead to be "kept and protected" by a guy so she can garden and shop. She made the choice that was right for HER. My hope is that all women and men realize the positive choices that they really do have and don't be enslaved to societal pressures, including traditional gender roles, to define the paths their lives will follow. To thine own self be true. 3
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