This Is Not Suggested

[Avarage]

I have no idea why you guys keep turning this into a men-women thing. I'd be offended if a woman did this to men too. Why are you so insistent on turning it into a gender war and how irrational female posters are??

 

Because this is loveshack where the gender trenches run deep across the dating field, shrouded in a misogyny fog covering the misandry mines. All's fair in loveshack and war.

[Els]

Because this is loveshack where the gender trenches run deep across the dating field, shrouded in a misogyny fog covering the misandry mines. All's fair in loveshack and war.

 

Damnit, can I quote that in my sig???

[Avarage]

Absolutly!

I would never deprive anyone of my "witty charm".

[dasein]

but this was something that never needed to be turned into a gender issue. If instead, daesin had simply said, "Hey, here's a woman who did this too" and saw what reaction women truly had --- instead of assuming the same women who have a problem with it when the guy does it will not when the women does -- all gender controversy could've been taken out of this discussion, really.

 

It's a gender issue from the very start of the thread in that OP cites an article from a highly biased, misandrist source blatantly exaggerating the "wrongness" of actions of a single man as part of that source's ongoing campaign to paint men in a negative light. This kind of thing is pervasive in the media, there are dozens of examples of it every day. A large element of pop culture today thrives on painting men negatively.

 

The Duke woman did something much worse. Kept a trophy list of Duke athletes she had slept with that included their pictures, critique of them physically, measurements, critique of sexual performance, and then "accidentally" leaked it, probably for personal gain and publicity. None of the athletes knew of her list or her habits. Had they, many would likely have refused her due to health concerns or other reasons.

 

It's ironic that this took place at Duke also, a campus where not too long ago, men's lives were ruined by a false rape accusation. The media was full to the brim of outrage upon the allegations, on every national desk. Yet when the claim was proven false, and the D A FIRED, where was the national outrage then? Where were the apologies to men with ruined reputations?

 

No one here has answered the question, "how would you feel if someone did that to YOU?" How would you feel if someone kept a log of their -many- sexual encounters without your knowledge (and disclosure of possible STD issues) that included your picture and other details, then leaked it, and instead of being keelhauled by the media, was either mildly scolded or told "attagirl!" Would you feel your privacy had been violated in a very malicious way? Would you be astonished at the media treatment or lack thereof? Won't reply to anyone who responds to this post without answering those questions. That no posters, particularly female posters, have answered these questions or agreed that what Duke girl did was bad makes TBQs point. A certain element of female posters on this forum will bend over backwards to rationalize, spin, backpedal, distort, basically do any kind of dishonest thing to avoid merely admitting that women share accountability for... pretty much anything. I don't see a parallel male poster idiosyncracy at all here on LS. Men freely admit when they or men are to blame for dating issues.

 

It's absolutely fair game to point out the discrepancy in a thread such as this, and especially telling that no one, not even male posters, has said that what she did was awful and reprehensible. We have been brainwashed to such a degree with gender bias in the media that bad things women do are unduly pardoned, while bad things men do are exaggerated or assumed worse than they are.

 

And OP, spare me the blame for making this about gender. You did that by starting the thread and citing Jezebel for anything gender related. Or did you really think we all needed the advice not to send out spreadsheets used to organize dates to the dates themselves? Was it really your intent to offer meaningful dating advice here? Your posts here in many threads seek to paint men in our lowest common denominator, you are perpetuating that here, and I have every right to respond in kind.

Edited April 18, 2012 by dasein

[zengirl]

I firmly believe if you'd started a thread about the Duke girl without saying before hand, "Here's what women will think about this," you would've gotten the reaction that what she did was absolutely wrong. Much harsher reactions than towards this man. The fact of the matter is that someone interrupting a criticism of one behavior of a particular man with, "Well, women do this stuff that's worse -- here's an example" is different than simply trying to talk about what the woman did on its own. Just as it would be wrong of anyone to insert an article about something a man did wrong to try to prove that men do bad things to a post about a woman behaving badly. I think it was pretty gross, but I'm not going to directly address much about that article because of the way you chose to bring it in. That was my point.

 

As to the source, Jezebel, I've never read or heard of it before. The article linked in the OP doesn't seem set out to make the guy look like a creep even, let alone levy any blame at ALL men or his masculinity for it, so I question how it could be a misandrist article aimed at making all men look bad. The title is a bit incendiary, of course, but they included a lot of his comments and didn't seem to twist them to make him look worse at all. The guy did something pretty darn stupid in sending it out, and he made some comments people are going to take umbrage with. Even he can admit that! Nor does it reflect on all men -- there was no assumption in the article that men commonly do this, etc. It was not a gender issue at all at that point.

[Els]

I question how it could be a misandrist article aimed at making all men look bad.

 

On the other hand, on LS pretty much everything is offensive and misogynistic

 

I think this answers the question for you, ZG, except that we have to flip 'misogynistic' around to its counterpart.

[dasein]

I firmly believe...

 

You didn't answer the simple questions I posed, hilarious rationalizations noted.

[zengirl]

I said precisely why I would not address your questions. Feel free to start a thread without the incendiary gender notions, about that girl, and I'll be happy to share my opinions with you, if you truly want to know. As to this thread, the topic appears to be a man who put his foot in his mouth, spreadsheet-style. Bummer for him and certainly not suggested, I think.

[Els]

No one here has answered the question, "how would you feel if someone did that to YOU?" How would you feel if someone kept a log of their -many- sexual encounters without your knowledge (and disclosure of possible STD issues) that included your picture and other details, then leaked it, and instead of being keelhauled by the media, was either mildly scolded or told "attagirl!" Would you feel your privacy had been violated in a very malicious way? Would you be astonished at the media treatment or lack thereof? Won't reply to anyone who responds to this post without answering those questions. That no posters, particularly female posters, have answered these questions or agreed that what Duke girl did was bad makes TBQs point. A certain element of female posters on this forum will bend over backwards to rationalize, spin, backpedal, distort, basically do any kind of dishonest thing to avoid merely admitting that women share accountability for... pretty much anything. I don't see a parallel male poster idiosyncracy at all here on LS. Men freely admit when they or men are to blame for dating issues.

 

Wait, weren't you the one all gung-ho about responding solely to the OP's question and not derailing threads? If the Duke poster wants, he can start his own thread, yes?

 

Or does that rule only apply when the OP is male?

 

And OP, spare me the blame for making this about gender. You did that by starting the thread and citing Jezebel for anything gender related.

 

Offensive and misandrist. Nod. We get it. You're absolutely stellar proof to TBQ's assertion that women are the ones who are overly sensitive to perceived 'offensive and misogynistic' overtures and unable to laugh it off, yes? Interestingly, the men I know IRL would just have a good laugh at the article and the man involved, instead of immediately trying to find a female corollary and getting their hackles raised when instead of taking the bait, other women choose to respond to the OP instead.

[dasein]

A certain element of female posters on this forum will bend over backwards to rationalize, spin, backpedal, distort, basically do any kind of dishonest thing to avoid merely admitting that women share accountability for... pretty much anything.

 

:laugh:

 

If the thread is to be taken at face value, as offering advice on a dating board, my first reply merely enlarges that by adding another similar example to what OP posted. That I somehow went "off-topic" is the funniest rationalization offered by two of the usual suspects. But anyone reading the thread knows exactly why it was made and posted here on LS, and real "advice" wasn't in the cards.

 

Note that they will post any kind of thing -other than- simply stating, "Yeah, if I was one of those Duke athletes, I'd be really pissed off!"

[verhrzn]

:laugh:

 

If the thread is to be taken at face value, as offering advice on a dating board, my first reply merely enlarges that by adding another similar example to what OP posted. That I somehow went "off-topic" is the funniest rationalization offered by two of the usual suspects. But anyone reading the thread knows exactly why it was made and posted here on LS.

 

Note that they will post any kind of thing -other than- simply stating, "Yeah, if I was one of those Duke athletes, I'd be really pissed off!"

 

Um I've already said that if a woman did the exact same thing the guy in this article did, I'd be pissed off. I don't even have to go "as far" as the Duke women... I think the BEHAVIOR is distressing, not the gender behind it. Why are you ignoring these comments of mine?

[Els]

Oh, so we're attacking an OP's motives now instead of responding directly to the topic broached in the OP? Tsk tsk. You seem to be on a roll today, breaking the very guidelines you sought to uphold not so long ago, mm?

 

Why are you so against starting your own thread? If you were genuinely interested in responses, clearly that would be the most logical thing to do by a long shot. You get responses - you win. We get to resume discussion on the article that was actually quoted in the opening post - we win.

 

If you're only interested in picking out bits of scrap metal to painstakingly carve into ammo, though, likely not.

[dasein]

Oh, so we're attacking an OP's motives now instead of responding directly to the topic broached in the OP?

 

Read my posts. I've responded directly to the topic, both as to the guy's behavior and to OP's obvious agenda of spotting and singling out bad male behavior.

[TheBigQuestion]

Clearly you do not fall into the same trap, judging from your total lack of heated responses in gender war threads.

 

IRL, most people I know are less 'sensitive' than people on LS, in almost virtually anything. Honest to god, I don't know ANY man IRL who discusses who pays on dates in the same way LS guys do - they either pay or they don't, they don't go on for aeons and aeons and aeons about it, at most they crack a couple of wry jokes about women and free lunches, and move on. Equally so, yes, the women can joke about porn, hot celebrities or anything of the sort.

 

Being 'overly sensitive' to topics on LS is most certainly NOT a negative behaviour more prevalent in women than in men. Pretty sure both genders have, cumulatively, equivalent responses here, just to different triggers.

 

I wouldn't consider my participation in gender war threads to be particularly heated, but I guess you're free to characterize it as you wish.

 

From what I've seen, there have only been a small handful of regulars who have discussed the "who pays" debate to any significant extent. Musemaj11 is one, but I haven't seen him around for a while. I might fall into this category myself. The reason I've discussed it extensively has little to do with the fact that I dislike the notion that men are still expected to pay for dates and everything to do with the completely hysterical reactions I've gotten just for expressing that viewpoint. If you have the time and feel so inclined, read my thread from a few months back about who pays on dates. All I did was explain to other male posters that if one has a robust social life where one frequently becomes acquaintances with the opposite sex, you can sidestep much of what constitutes early dating. My advice was tailored to guys who are either tired of forking out money on early dates or to guys who have never thought about it one way or the other.

 

At no point in that thread did I ever insult anyone. But you can read for yourself the litany of completely unfounded insults that were slung at me. For not believing in paying on first dates and for having the AUDACITY to suggest an alternative, I was called cheap, poor, insecure, small-minded, and perpetually single, none of which are true. Did any female LS regulars chime in and say "hey now, he has a different viewpoint, stop making unfounded assumptions"? Absolutely not.

 

I can't speak for everyone else, but I don't "respond" to "triggers" in the same way women on LS do. I respond to people making intellectually lazy or insulting responses to perfectly reasonable posts.

 

For the record, I don't agree with the reasons dasein gave to essentially make this thread about gender because I firmly believe all the regulars on this board would NOT celebrate what the Duke college student did. He makes a good point, and he should start his own thread about it, but I agree that it doesn't belong here.

 

verhrzn posted this because it simply feeds her insecurities about herself and how she relates to men. I agree with dasein that it had nothing to do with advice that she wanted to give, but it also wasn't intended to start a gender war.

[dasein]

He makes a good point, and he should start his own thread about it, but I agree that it doesn't belong here.

 

1. Citing another example of "spreadsheet dissemination" is completely topical in this thread. There's no reason at all to start another.

 

2. Because no one here nor anywhere needs the advice "don't send spreadsheets out to your dates," it's fair to comment on poster motives for posting such in THIS thread, especially in light of OP's many other posts always seeking to paint men as lowest common denominator. Normally, I wouldn't cross thread like that, but OP has posted HUNDREDS of similar posts to this forum with the same exact expressed motive.

[dasein]

Um I've already said that if a woman did the exact same thing the guy in this article did, I'd be pissed off. I don't even have to go "as far" as the Duke women... I think the BEHAVIOR is distressing, not the gender behind it. Why are you ignoring these comments of mine?

 

Because you are still hedging and making it about what the -guy- did as opposed to simply acknowledging specifically that what the Duke woman did, in essence the same thing the guy did but much worse, is reprehensible.

[Els]

I wouldn't consider my participation in gender war threads to be particularly heated, but I guess you're free to characterize it as you wish.

 

From what I've seen, there have only been a small handful of regulars who have discussed the "who pays" debate to any significant extent. Musemaj11 is one, but I haven't seen him around for a while. I might fall into this category myself. The reason I've discussed it extensively has little to do with the fact that I dislike the notion that men are still expected to pay for dates and everything to do with the completely hysterical reactions I've gotten just for expressing that viewpoint. If you have the time and feel so inclined, read my thread from a few months back about who pays on dates. All I did was explain to other male posters that if one has a robust social life where one frequently becomes acquaintances with the opposite sex, you can sidestep much of what constitutes early dating. My advice was tailored to guys who are either tired of forking out money on early dates or to guys who have never thought about it one way or the other.

 

At no point in that thread did I ever insult anyone. But you can read for yourself the litany of completely unfounded insults that were slung at me. For not believing in paying on first dates and for having the AUDACITY to suggest an alternative, I was called cheap, poor, insecure, small-minded, and perpetually single, none of which are true. Did any female LS regulars chime in and say "hey now, he has a different viewpoint, stop making unfounded assumptions"? Absolutely not.

 

There were women who did speak up to say that men should have the right to decide without being judged. There absolutely were. You only need to go back to those threads to find it. I am certain I mentioned it several times, myself, and I am only one.

 

Musemaj1 is certainly not the only man who does such - I wouldn't classify you as one of the culprits though. Equally so, not all of the women cry misogyny at the slightest remark, if you haven't noticed.

 

I can't speak for everyone else, but I don't "respond" to "triggers" in the same way women on LS do. I respond to people making intellectually lazy or insulting responses to perfectly reasonable posts.

 

I thought we were speaking about people getting offended at the slightest thing and calling it 'misogynistic/misandrist', regardless of intellectual poise or insult? DY's posts, for example, tend to be very well written and eloquent, as are dasein's, but it doesn't change the fact that half of their posts are centred around perceived misandry/misogyny. I don't think those two even NEED a trigger, tbh.

 

For every female poster you find making an 'intellectually lazy or insulting responses to perfectly reasonable posts', also, I guarantee you that I can find a male poster doing the same.

[Els]

Read my posts. I've responded directly to the topic, .

 

And so have I. Your point?

[dasein]

And so have I. Your point?

 

-You- accused -me- of off-topic posting, not the other way around. Sheesh.

[Els]

-You- accused -me- of off-topic posting, not the other way around. Sheesh.

 

Having some on topic posts does not negate the fact that you (or I) also have some off topic posts, does it? That was my entire point.

 

That being said, I think I've pretty much used up my off-topic post quota for the day, so I shall return to solely responding to discussion related to the article that the OP quoted. I would heartily recommend that you do the same. Seriously, make another thread. The forum bandwidth can handle it.

[dasein]

Having some on topic posts does not negate the fact that you (or I) also have some off topic posts, does it? That was my entire point.

 

None, 0, nada of my posts to this thread are off-topic, other than those responding to your accusations of such.

[verhrzn]

Because you are still hedging and making it about what the -guy- did as opposed to simply acknowledging specifically that what the Duke woman did, in essence the same thing the guy did but much worse, is reprehensible.

 

 

Because the Duke woman is completely off topic. She did something similar, but I've already said (over and over) that swap a guy out for a woman in this exact same situation, and I'd still have a problem with it. Which means it has absolutely nothing to do with gender for me.

 

verhrzn posted this because it simply feeds her insecurities about herself and how she relates to men. I agree with dasein that it had nothing to do with advice that she wanted to give, but it also wasn't intended to start a gender war.

 

I have no idea how it would feed my insecurities about myself. That doesn't even make sense. I posted it as half-joking advice (because honestly, did it really need to be said?) but also because I wanted to gauge how abnormal my opinion about the situation was. In the article I posted, MOST of the comments are that aside from sending it out, the commentors had no problem with keeping a spreadsheet of potential dates.

 

I find that behavior (and the comments ABOUT the potential dates) creepy, so I wondered if my thoughts on the subject were dissimilar to what most people think (as there is a certain "type" of poster on Jezebel, just like there is here.) This thread has confirmed that, yep, my opinion is different than most other people's.

 

The only time my insecurities/opinion of men came into it at all is when Dasein went on yet another gender war rant, and the idea that it's perfectly all right to objectify women's bodies (which is what I found creepiest and most bothersome about the original issue.)

[TheBigQuestion]

There were women who did speak up to say that men should have the right to decide without being judged. There absolutely were. You only need to go back to those threads to find it. I am certain I mentioned it several times, myself, and I am only one.

 

Musemaj1 is certainly not the only man who does such - I wouldn't classify you as one of the culprits though. Equally so, not all of the women cry misogyny at the slightest remark, if you haven't noticed.

 

 

 

I thought we were speaking about people getting offended at the slightest thing and calling it 'misogynistic/misandrist', regardless of intellectual poise or insult? DY's posts, for example, tend to be very well written and eloquent, as are dasein's, but it doesn't change the fact that half of their posts are centred around perceived misandry/misogyny. I don't think those two even NEED a trigger, tbh.

 

For every female poster you find making an 'intellectually lazy or insulting responses to perfectly reasonable posts', also, I guarantee you that I can find a male poster doing the same.

 

Yes, some women agreed with me, but my point was that no one called out the female posters for making those insulting comments. Most of the female regulars will yell from the rooftops that they consider themselves unbiased in terms of gender and that they conduct themselves accordingly. Someone behaving badly is someone behaving badly, and gender is totally irrelevant, they say. Yet when someone like me starts a perfectly reasonable thread without even the slightest undercurrent of insulting sentiment toward anyone and gets a large volume of insulting remarks and/or complete, purposeful mischaracterizations of my statements in response, criticism of those posts is noticeably absent. I'm not saying I need women to throw on their armor and ride to my rescue, but it would certainly go a long way to make their claims of impartiality more credible. I don't perceive that degree of reticence in coming to the rescue of female posters on here, and women on LS get up in arms for things said that are far, far less insulting than what was leveled at me.

 

Wait... did you seriously say DY was "eloquent?" She CONSTANTLY makes grammatical and spelling errors and her posts are extremely convoluted and scatterbrained.

 

I can try to get this somewhat back on topic. Verhrzn posted this because she dislikes the idea that men can have enough access or success with women. Her posts make this clear enough. She needs to get over herself. Period. She obviously didn't post this to tell guys to not send their date spreadsheets to their dates. She posted this because she's aghast that a guy would actually, heaven forbid, remember a woman or characterize her based on one of her attractive physical features. Yeah, when I was in college, I met plenty of girls and it was impossible to remember all of their names. So I might have used something like "The girl with the J.Lo booty" as a trigger. Sue me.

[dasein]

To all the multi-daters and people doing online dating:

 

Creepy Finance Guy With Spreadsheet of Match.com 'Prospects' Says He Was Just Trying to Be Organized

 

This isn't advised either:

 

Duke coed

 

but have had two women I dated from OLD, one for ten months, who kept a spreadsheet of various guys. NBD really, well NBD if a woman does it apparently, the sign of a hideous monster if a guy does it.... ewww CREEPY!!

 

Why don't you tell me how the response above, or any of mine subsequent, is off-topic in any way. It isn't and they aren't.

 

Or answer this, what was your intent in making this thread?

[verhrzn]

I can try to get this somewhat back on topic. Verhrzn posted this because she dislikes the idea that men can have enough access or success with women. Her posts make this clear enough. She needs to get over herself. Period. She obviously didn't post this to tell guys to not send their date spreadsheets to their dates. She posted this because she's aghast that a guy would actually, heaven forbid, remember a woman or characterize her based on one of her attractive physical features. Yeah, when I was in college, I met plenty of girls and it was impossible to remember all of their names. So I might have used something like "The girl with the J.Lo booty" as a trigger. Sue me.

 

Huh? I dislike the idea that men have success with women?? In what mirror land did you pick this up?

 

I DO care if men reduce women down to just their body parts to remember them, yes. That's called "objectification," and yeah, I find it degrading and kind of insulting that a guy can't remember a girl's name without reducing her down to her boobs or her butt.