Ladies, be assured, this forum does NOT represent the majority of men

[zengirl]

No it's not, counseling men not to say ILY too fast?

 

I'm actually referring to the part in it to not say it first and make sure you say ILY less times than she does, rather than simply too fast. Have you read The System?

 

How exactly is that manipulative of women in the same way not picking up one's phone is manipulative of men?

 

Purposefully not picking up your phone to gain a reaction IS manipulative and I disagree with advice that suggests that be done. I've listed many manipulative texts for women that I disagree with. So. . . I'm confused as to your point with this.

 

One act involves rudely ignoring another human being, the other does not. If Doc Love's system is manipulative of anyone it's his CLIENTs who are manipulated, in good ways, not the women they date.

 

Huh? I don't believe his System provokes real growth of any kind or manipulates the people reading it. Rather, it gives them "tools" to manipulate others INSTEAD of growth.

 

Which is not to say I think people should say ILY immediately or that they cannot hold back on that. But when you're NEVER saying it first or even echo it back right away AS A TECHNIQUE TO BUILD INTEREST, that is manipulation. As is not answering your phone to seem unavailable. I'm not a fan of social manipulation. You clearly are a fan of SOME social manipulation but not others. That's fine. We disagree. Most moral discussions result in some disagreement among human beings -- from my perspective, doing such things is immoral, albeit mildly so, as all manipulation is.

 

despite what women think, most men are honorable and won't do the above,

 

I agree. That's not what I'm saying PUA is either. I do think it's a manipulative culture, though.

 

No, I don't want to read the "Tao of..." anything other than the Tao of... Te Ching, nor do I want to read watered down feminized male dating advice one tends to get in the "relationship book" arena. PUAs cut through lots of nonsense to tools and results, and men respond to that business model moreso than we respond to book authors trying to fluff a 50 page book into 500 pages.

 

It's not a feminized book at all. Nor is the Tao itself a feminine concept. It is just an Eastern concept. I'm not saying anyone has to read it or that it's for everyone, but I am saying it embraces masculinity and the masculine side of people (the Yang side) without being manipulative. That is possible. Your perspective seems to be that men are manipulative in general and only respond to that, and I really strong disagree. I know loads of men who feel the same way I do about social manipulation and can assert themselves, be themselves, and recognize that taking actions simply to get a response is an improper way to live. It's also not a long book, btw.

 

Personally, I don't neg women and don't think it's an effective technique either, but the above is unresponsive to what I posted for the most part. The main point was that it gets paralyzed men comfortable with normal as opposed to stilted interactions with women.

 

Nor was that point directly responsive to what you quoted in my point about negs, which was what I was elaborating on. As to your point here, I also disagree with that. ALL negs I've ever seen WERE stilted interactions.

[serial muse]

I don't post things because I want women to apologize for the actions of other women. I just sometimes need reassurance that not all women are like the horror stories I hear about. It's why I really am trying to cut back on the negativity and I start those positive relationship threads.

 

So why is it so bad that this poster is doing just that - telling women on LS that not every guy thinks like the ones that say nasty stuff about women?

 

Or are you saying that you want women to "suck up" to men, the way that you (and others) are accusing the OP of sucking up to women?

 

You really can't have it both ways.

[zengirl]

Hair splitting. What we say and do -is- who we are by definition, already dealt with lying, which no PUA counsels. Also "sincere" and "self-interested" are not mutually exclusive. How truly "sincere" do you expect men to be when approaching total or near total strangers?

 

No, it's really not hair splitting. The fact that you think it is suggests we have very different moral codes. If I do something out of a sincere desire to do it, it is VERY different than if I do something, hoping to elicit a particular response.

 

This is also why I find RL PUA guys tend not to go away with the original "No," as I mentioned in response to Fish's post. They are trying something FOR a reaction and when they get something vastly outside the box of reactions they're expecting (anger or success, generally), they won't go away right away and instead become passive-aggressive and borderline harassing. Because whatever they were doing, they wanted the RESPONSE. They wanted the ego boost of either total success or total failure. They didn't want to see me as a person.

 

See, when we do things to get a particular response from others and are transactional in our interpersonal relationships in a moment-to-moment way, we are both avoiding personal growth AND lying to them. To me, at least. Again, that's my moral code and why I find that wrong. Not that you're ever interested in listening to the perspectives of others.

[Woggle]

So why is it so bad that this poster is doing just that - telling women on LS that not every guy thinks like the ones that say nasty stuff about women?

 

Or are you saying that you want women to "suck up" to men, the way that you (and others) are accusing the OP of sucking up to women?

 

You really can't have it both ways.

 

This guy just seems like he is apologizing for being born with a penis plus not all men on here are like that. Look at all the men on the divorce forum who were loving and faithful husbands but were betrayed in some of the worst ways.

[wwwjd]

I didn't take the original post as having anything to do with me, so I didn't feel insulted.

 

This is more the way I see it, and how it felt to me.

[serial muse]

This guy just seems like he is apologizing for being born with a penis plus not all men on here are like that. Look at all the men on the divorce forum who were loving and faithful husbands but were betrayed in some of the worst ways.

 

And yeah, plenty of women too.

Edited April 17, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[wwwjd]

How truly "sincere" do you expect men to be when approaching total or near total strangers?

 

What?? FULL, REAL, SINCERITY has worked for me my entire life. I guess maybe PUA "system" is not the end all.

[zengirl]

This guy just seems like he is apologizing for being born with a penis plus not all men on here are like that. Look at all the men on the divorce forum who were loving and faithful husbands but were betrayed in some of the worst ways.

 

I didn't get the impression he was apologizing for being a man. Nor should he have to. Men are great. Especially the good men he wants to highlight!

 

I do agree with you that not all men on LS are like the men he describes (so does he, in his OP, though he could give the post a better title). But I think he was more trying to put forth a different, more true picture of manhood. I think sometimes the loudest and worst types of men try to claim manhood from the other many types of men out there --- I'm not sure if that's a good description but I'm basically talking about the bully, Alpha, cowboy, locker room types who think the world should conform to their ideals of gender as well as probably loads of other things and label men as being unmanly or weak or beta or feminized when those men are outside of what they consider masculine. I think we need to accept that there are A LOT of forms of masculinity (and femininity) and those guys aren't actually really helping other men much, especially men like the OP who probably felt that non-acceptance by that group in his life at sometime.

 

Gender studies are about men and manhood too. I think the OP was perhaps just presenting a different picture of manhood that's a little quieter and gets stated less but is just as masculine. I'm not saying he did it perfectly, but who speaks perfectly all the time?

[William]

Closed for moderator review.......