Ladies, be assured, this forum does NOT represent the majority of men

[wwwjd]

I feel PUA "PICK UP ARTIST" has deeper "player" connotations to it. I'm not out to "seduce" but to learn and grow. After a long courtship, yes, seduction will come later - that is where most screw up by starting with that first, "Geee, why didn't it last? Im so stupid, I don't know where I went wrong..." that gets old.... anyway.... where I have personal skills that I feel work great, I don't want to be throw in the bucket labels PUA, as it is not an ART to me, nor am I trying to pick anyone up. I don't even GO to bars. ... where picking up USUALLY takes place.

 

If I meet someone at Trader Joes, I am not picking them up, I am meeting them to see about compatibility, not to seduce.

It's mostly semantics here, I know, but I feel you are making it the same when it isn't really.

I've never not gotten a date from someone I wanted to... does that make me a PUA? No, because it took a lot of time.

 

Not wanting to argue here, just explaining my differing perspective on this and I DO APPRECIATE you explaining yours also. It is interesting and I am learning other's perceptions.

[Anela]

Aaaand this, too. I definitely think there are more bitter POSTS by male usernames than female, here, but that's really most likely because the males for some reason feel the need to spawn lots of underlings under a poor guise.

 

Any bitterness from me, comes and goes with the level of my self-esteem, along with how much my reality is jiving with the nasty stuff I see posted here. I pay attention to the good, too.

[dasein]

I feel PUA "PICK UP ARTIST" has deeper "player" connotations to it.

 

It's obvious that you and many of the female posters here do also. It doesn't though, and saying it does is akin to saying all female self-help relationship books have "player" connotations.

 

I'm not out to "seduce" but to learn and grow. After a long courtship, yes, seduction will come later - that is where most screw up by starting with that first, "Geee, why didn't it last? Im so stupid, I don't know where I went wrong..."

 

You admit that you don't go to bars, yet feel free to opine on what happens there?

 

Ignoring the need to be seducing women from the first smile is a dreadful mistake men make, and the primary reason for all the "he's a great guy but..." "I just don't feel the butterflies..." "Am I superficial for wanting someone more exciting..." "ther's just no chemistry," threads and their countless variations here on LS. OTOH, there are also just as many threads here made by female posters along the lines of "I'm in a LTR but have this office crush...," "I slept with this guy on the second date..." "I have this connection with..."

 

Read 1000 or so of these threads, and you should begin to realize that seduction is a very necessary component of being successful with women, not to be dismissed as cheap tricks used for manipulation. And if they -did- respond to cheap tricks and BS better than sincerity, we are tool makers and tool users. If a hammer works, we use a hammer, not a screwdriver.

[GorillaTheater]

Some of the younger (and older too, come to think of it) guys I know have so little game that PUA stuff is actually a step in the right direction. If they get out there and start approaching women, most of them will amend their approach over time to something that they're comfortable with and works for them.

 

No big deal.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Shocker that you would actually admit that, and I suspect that is the state of knowledge of most/all of the "PUA debunkers" here on LS, OP included.

 

To clarify: I hadn't heard of PUA until I found out about it here, but after that, I checked it out thoroughly on the Web. I don't need you to 'splain it for me. I have quite a lot of info on it by now, directly from the "masters," and I've formed my opinion. Thanks anyway.

 

Every couple of years some female "flirting expert" comes out with a book, yet because it's coming from a woman, is just A-OK with everyone, gets favorable press, talk show appearances, etc.

 

Speak for yourself. Sure, there's advice written by and for both men and women that is actually A-OK by me, but all the PUA and books for women like "The Rules" I consider to be ridiculous, insulting garbage.

 

Lumping all male relationship advice under "PUA" is just as disingenuous as lumping all female relationship advice under "Gold-dig 101" would be.

 

I agree with you.

Edited April 17, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[wwwjd]

You admit that you don't go to bars, yet feel free to opine on what happens there?

 

Do I have to pound my hand with a hammer to know it is painful? No. I can observe remotely. And have no interest (nor need) for that action.

I HAVE been in bars in the past. I'm familair with the whole "watering hole" mating customs.

 

A Toast: TO ALCOHOL! The reason for, and solution to all of our problems!!

 

[thatone]

You're right, there's not that much, but most of it that's here probably arrived during the "sosuave" migration, and they are very vocal artists who seem ready to shout others down and back each other up with their agenda. So they can seem pretty daunting at times.

 

I'd never heard of this stuff until encountering those guys here on LS.

 

never heard of it before i started seeing it mentioned on here either.

 

i'm thinking patheticness along the lines of the 'biker' with his 'harley owner group xyz city chapter' leathers on giving people the stink eye at applebees in the suburbs, and/or the fake tan, bleach blonde, fake tits loud drunk girl at any public event who thinks she's the hottest thing there.

 

just sounds like more people trying to turn their persona into a costume.

[fishtaco]

I don't see a problem.

 

PUA stuff at best only has dubious effectiveness anyway. I think, since I'm not a woman, I have to guess here, that as long as men do not harass or go into insult mode once they are turned down, who cares what "strategy" they use?

 

Guy #1 uses PUA. You don't bite. You tell him politely thanks but no thanks. He goes away. No drama.

 

Guy #2 does not use PUA. You're not interested. You tell him politely thanks but no thanks, he turns into a creeper and doesn't give up tailing you the whole night.

 

I'd think women much rather deal with guy #1.

 

Approaches are just that, approaches. Maybe PUA works, maybe PUA doesn't. As long as the guy does not cross boundaries, and will take a no for an answer without starting drama, who cares?

 

If the woman next to you responds to PUA, why does that matter to you? If you don't respond to PUA, then guess what? Even better. All PUA guys will hit a brick wall with you, more power to you.

 

PUA at it's worst is a money syphoning scheme, and it's to the detriment of men's wallet. Men should be the one to complain about it if anything.

 

And don't even start about oh but then these men would come up to me and do these PUA things. Well, guess what? If PUA didn't exist those same men would come up to you with other strategies anyway. It's pretty much an agreed upon point than men have to make the move most of the time. So we do. PUA or no PUA, we HAVE to make a move.

 

And when a move is made, there are only two types of moves. An effective move, or an ineffective move. So PUA is bad, but a natural charmer that gets his way with women is all of a sudden okay? I don't see the difference.

[dasein]

To clarify: I hadn't heard of PUA until I found out about it here, but after that, I checked it out thoroughly on the Web.

 

Yet you and others don't share any specifics or substantive points you find objectionable, merely go on and on about "PUA this PUA that," suggesting that you very much -do- need someone to "spain" it to you...

 

all the PUA and books for women like "The Rules" I consider to be ridiculous, insulting garbage.

 

and continue on your merry way using the term "PUA" as synonymous with "bad."

 

I have every right to rebut a poster who, after a couple of weeks here, claims enough knowledge about "men who post to LS" to categorize them/us in an insulting way. He didn't just generalize women or men or ponies, but made -specific- claims about 1) the male posters who post here, and 2) his level of knowledge about "what's out there" in the dating world. Obnoxious on two levels.

 

But of course, that wouldn't be at all making the types of undue stereotypes you constantly lie here about "speaking out against no matter the target" would it? No, because you and others are only interested in "speaking out against" things posted that you find offensive to women, and "speaking out" for you translates into sitting back and imperiously tut-tutting male posters on how sorry and worthless they are as human beings... Springer style. It's telling how many of the usual suspects here leaped on "liking" OP's groundless, insulting post, isn't it.

Edited April 17, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[dasein]

Well, guess what? If PUA didn't exist those same men would come up to you with other strategies anyway. It's pretty much an agreed upon point than men have to make the move most of the time. So we do. PUA or no PUA, we HAVE to make a move.

 

This is another great point. PUA exists as an -alternative- to stale pickup and approach lines that women have been complaining about as insulting forever. Men start learning to approach and seduce women in less trite ways, and... women still complain.

 

The truth to be learned from threads like this is that women are going to complain endlessly about how they are approached, or not approached, by men, no matter what we do... they will complain.

 

Women complain about men no matter what we do. Just a given reality.

[Kamille]

This is another great point. PUA exists as an -alternative- to stale pickup and approach lines that women have been complaining about as insulting forever. Men start learning to approach and seduce women in less trite ways, and... women still complain.

 

The truth to be learned from threads like this is that women are going to complain endlessly about how they are approached, or not approached, by men, no matter what we do... they will complain.

 

Women complain about men no matter what we do. Just a given reality.

 

And that you will complain endlessly about whatever it is you're pretending all women do.

 

But enough about that. How are you doing Dasein? Life treating you well?

[garycoleman]

this forum is a lot better than those Pick Up Artist forums. Some of the things they suggest doing seem so lame.

 

Aren't most normal girls (non-bar/club sluts) turned off by pick up artists?

[dasein]

And that you will complain endlessly about whatever it is you're pretending all women do.

 

I'm only going by what is posted here, in this thread and certain others, about PUA, the alarmist reactions to it here, as indicative of ignorance about PUA here on LS, and about women's tendency to complain -here-. It goes without saying that whenever someone uses the word "women," "men," or "cats," that they aren't claiming to say anything about "all women," "all men," or "all cats." Or it -should- go without saying.

[NXS]

 

PUA at it's worst is a money syphoning scheme, and it's to the detriment of men's wallet. Men should be the one to complain about it if anything.

 

I would second this. The whole thing seems to be nothing more than a money making scam by some fairly dubious characters preying on guys that are socially inept. It's their money and choice of course, it just seems a shame that a lot of guys get sucked into this. I doubt if the results are any better than guys going out and doing the same number of cold-calling without these "techniques" and just helping each other out with what works and what doesn't.

 

Maybe it's just a reaction to the superficial nature of the dating world. Women have been coaching each other and looking out for each other for as long as I can remember. Setting codes of acceptable behaviour, warning each other about the creeps and the losers, doing each others hair and make-up etc etc.

 

It seems when men get together to do anything there's always the accusations of something sinister.

[fishtaco]

I think women, and wwwjd, associate "PUA" with "tricking women into sex".

 

I look at PUA as "a way to make women sexually attracted to you". And I don't see anything wrong with it, other than I question its effectiveness. Because I do something like that all the time -- I work out at the gym, and I wear nice clothes. I believe doing those things will increase my chances that women will find me sexually attractive. So if PUA is evil for simply having that mission statement, then gym and nice clothes are too.

[iris219]

*Shrugs* It fits the single men that I've met out and about.

 

There seem to be 3 types of single men I've seen:

1) The Player. This is the Pick Up Artist, "gotta get mine," commitment-averse guy.

2) The Whiner. This is the guy who lacks confidence, who is bitter towards hot women's rejection of him and other guys' success at dating, but does nothing to boost up his own power. (Working out, improving his confidence, etc.)

3) The Eh-Whatever. This is by far the rarest type, but they are out there... the guy who is just enjoying life, and doesn't really care either way about a relationship. If a girl who is really amazing falls into his lap, sure, he'll take it, but he isn't looking for it.

 

Nearly all of the single guys on this board fit into one of those three categories. By your observation, in what way does this forum NOT represent single men?

You forgot the kind of single guy I meet most often:

 

4. The Deceptive Loser: This guy is single because there's SO much wrong with him: addiction, untreated mental illness, selfish, insensitive, immature, emotionally unavailable, can't pay his bills, etc. He's often attractive and charismatic, so he can reel you in but the truth is revealed quickly. Relationships equal responsibility and he can't handle that. He has no idea what he wants out of a relationship or how to have one.

 

He has a take me as I am/love me or leave me attitude. He's never been able to maintain relationships, but has come to accept his faults so he's not changing. Sometimes this guy KNOWS and will even admit that he's a complete loser. He feels that if it's meant to be, the woman will accept him as he is and put up with his whims and instability. He has fleeting moments where he hopes to meet a woman who will inspire him to be different.

[johan]

Ouch.

 

 

 

 

.. ..

[wwwjd]

I think women, and wwwjd, associate "PUA" with "tricking women into sex".

 

I don't recall ever actually picking on the "PUA", but if the shoe fits, I guess it is one in the same as what I mentioned in my first post: 3 date sex, pump and dump etc etc etc.

 

But if I am attracted and start to get to know a girl slowly, how would that be exactly the same as "PUA" since it, apparently, is all the same.

 

Let's break this down quickly:

 

"Pick up" according to Urban Dictionary (because MW doesn't cover it):

To meet someone, usually at a bar or party, and persuade them to leave with you in order to have sex. Used for in-person encounters, as opposed to hookup, which can also be used for internet meetings for sex.

 

That is the commoners definition of PICK UP. I didn't make that up, that is a generally recognized definition. The MW one was like getting someone into your vehicle, but the UNabridged is not on line.

 

So, to not mince words, I go by the world's general definition of things so to be understood by teh internets.

 

"Artist" An incredibly talented person who dedicates the time and hard work to.... "pick ups?" This person has dedicated years of work to mastering his craft, and deserve as much credit as any other professional in a field. They generally have a higher level of creativity and imagination.

 

So, if MY method of meeting someone, through casual associative freindship, common interests, slow growth, into a loving long term spiritual/emotional/mental and yes, even physical relationship, is ANYTHING like being a "PICK UP" "ARTIST", I'm missing something here.

 

ONe of the posts above even said something like, "If she's not interested, move on to the next one." What? Move on the the next one? For what? What are they after at a bar HITTING on women? Doubt it is long term love and dedication to one love for the rest of their life. At a bar? REALLY?

 

So, with all the threads about 3 date sex timing, human personal skills manipulations tips and tricks, and all that, maybe that falls under "PUA", I don't even care....

 

what I am saying to all the girls reading all that is that is not a god cross section of single guys out there. That is just the ones on this sight, I am not like that, make a conscious choice to NOT assosiate with that type, and would rather not be pigeon holed into that group.

 

If some one is like that and felt offended because *I* am not into that, that is something that individual needs to deal with within themselves. I don't recall ever insulting anyone about it. I do recall saying something like ,"That is fine for them", and also that if someone is stupid enough to not know why it doesn't work out after bed hoping first, well, that IS stupid and I am calling it like it is. NOT KNOWING why a bad choice is messing things up, REPEATEDLY, is stupid. Time to reassess. Unless they are too stupid to reassess.

 

I'm not gonna change MY perspective on what *I* view here: I don't feel this is an accurate cross section of single guys out there since the nicer ones are not posting.

 

The women deserve to know this.

[Woggle]

Number 3 doesn't sound so bad. It is good to build your life and the right woman will fit into it when she comes.

[NXS]

I don't recall ever actually picking on the "PUA", but if the shoe fits, I guess it is one in the same as what I mentioned in my first post: 3 date sex, pump and dump etc etc etc.

 

But if I am attracted and start to get to know a girl slowly, how would that be exactly the same as "PUA" since it, apparently, is all the same.

 

Let's break this down quickly:

 

"Pick up" according to Urban Dictionary (because MW doesn't cover it):

To meet someone, usually at a bar or party, and persuade them to leave with you in order to have sex. Used for in-person encounters, as opposed to hookup, which can also be used for internet meetings for sex.

 

That is the commoners definition of PICK UP. I didn't make that up, that is a generally recognized definition. The MW one was like getting someone into your vehicle, but the UNabridged is not on line.

 

So, to not mince words, I go by the world's general definition of things so to be understood by teh internets.

 

"Artist" An incredibly talented person who dedicates the time and hard work to.... "pick ups?" This person has dedicated years of work to mastering his craft, and deserve as much credit as any other professional in a field. They generally have a higher level of creativity and imagination.

 

So, if MY method of meeting someone, through casual associative freindship, common interests, slow growth, into a loving long term spiritual/emotional/mental and yes, even physical relationship, is ANYTHING like being a "PICK UP" "ARTIST", I'm missing something here.

 

ONe of the posts above even said something like, "If she's not interested, move on to the next one." What? Move on the the next one? For what? What are they after at a bar HITTING on women? Doubt it is long term love and dedication to one love for the rest of their life. At a bar? REALLY?

 

So, with all the threads about 3 date sex timing, human personal skills manipulations tips and tricks, and all that, maybe that falls under "PUA", I don't even care....

 

what I am saying to all the girls reading all that is that is not a god cross section of single guys out there. That is just the ones on this sight, I am not like that, make a conscious choice to NOT assosiate with that type, and would rather not be pigeon holed into that group.

 

If some one is like that and felt offended because *I* am not into that, that is something that individual needs to deal with within themselves. I don't recall ever insulting anyone about it. I do recall saying something like ,"That is fine for them", and also that if someone is stupid enough to not know why it doesn't work out after bed hoping first, well, that IS stupid and I am calling it like it is. NOT KNOWING why a bad choice is messing things up, REPEATEDLY, is stupid. Time to reassess. Unless they are too stupid to reassess.

 

I'm not gonna change MY perspective on what *I* view here: I don't feel this is an accurate cross section of single guys out there since the nicer ones are not posting.

 

The women deserve to know this.

 

Have to say I find your posts here irritating and condescending. I mean what exactly do you think you're telling women that they "deserve to know"? Do you think women here haven't already made up their minds about PUA, or what kind of men they believe are out there?

Edited April 17, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[mesmerized]

I would hope so although the things you mentioned are pretty common (guys bragging etc). I read some really misogynist woman hating stuff on here that I never heard of in real life. For example, I honestly NEVER had a guy talking crap about women with career. In fact, they always acted as if they prefer it. My friend is a lawyer and it's a big point for her when it comes to getting guys, believe it or not. I guess I just don't hang out with low quality men that hate on smart successful women.

[wwwjd]

I don't even CARE about PUA!!!

 

From what I read in women's responses here, they are getting the impression that most guys are like that. Just voicing that they are not.

 

I've offended the bar-flys. hmmmmmm.... wonder why that is?

[ThaWholigan]

That doesn't make any logical sense. Because unless everyone marries the first person they ever seriously date everyone will be single at some point. How can all the single people be bad and all the taken people be good?

Agreed. As a single man, I take exception to being boxed into such rigid and unflattering categories.

[Kamille]

That doesn't make any logical sense. Because unless everyone marries the first person they ever seriously date everyone will be single at some point. How can all the single people be bad and all the taken people be good?

 

Agreed. As a single man, I take exception to being boxed into such rigid and unflattering categories.

 

+1

I hate it when it's done to women and hate it when it's done to men.

 

There's something so unforgiving about the categories, like people are not supposed to grow, change, learn, have rough patches, or, simply, be incompatible.

[verhrzn]

Would it help if I specified that these are categories of people who are single for significant lengths of time?

 

I think we're touched on this idea in the forum before, but there is a prevailing thought that if you are not single by choice, then there IS something wrong with you. If someone has been single for several months or longer, and can't find anyone to date, isn't our immediate impression that they are screwing up somehow?