Kind of getting tired of the FZ, but am I shooting myself in my own foot?

[irc333]

Lately, I've really been trying to take friend's advice on being okay with being "just friends" with women, and having no expectations that it could turn into something.

 

A woman I met on a dating site, that I had met, and really hit it off, she loved my humor, and compared to the other men she'd met, they just creeped her out or did something to turn her off. At the same time,s he's been having social issues as well, as far as getting out and socializing. She really wants just a group of friends to hang out with for now, and she's practically begging me to be "just her friend" and doesn't want me to get mad if she thinks I'm holding out hope that it'll turn into something else.

 

Basically, she enjoys our friendship SO much, she doesn't me ruining it by attempting to get physical with her. But again, she has trust issues, from a previous cheating husband/marriage gone bad. So I dunno, she's still realing from that..

 

I found to be okay with that, after she explained her situation.

 

THen I recently saw this very attractive woman (Asian) who plans on moving into my area from Hawaii, in the medical field. I live in a small area, where single people are lacking, and well....she mentioned she was looking for an old-fashioned reserved kind of man, that prefers to start the relationship as af friendship and let it go from there. We had a few hobbies in common.......she DID respond, (which so many others don't) , and said "I don't think we'd make a good match, but I would be open to having an activity partner or friendship with our similar hobbies.

 

I said, "Hm, we haven't met yet...so how can you be so sure? lol"

 

She then said, "Well, I don't think we'd make a good match, physically."

 

I finally said, "Well, after seeing your pictures, I indeed found myself attracted to you....physically (she has great curves, lol)....and I don't think I'd be okay with something platonic with you.....after all, that's what we're on a dating site for."

 

In this case I rebuked her offer of just "only friends"

 

I have friends telling me, if I"m not okay with being just only friends with women, it might not be healthy....that I SHOULD be open to it, because oyou can get USED to being around women, and if they're comfortable around you to be friends with you (Because there are just some guys that want to get into their pants, nothing more....so they don't' get invited out to any parties)

 

They don't like players either, but tend to be VERY fond of their male friends.

 

Also, if you're a man that is SEEN with other female friends OTHER women will find this attractive, being how you might have something to offer, even if these platonic friends are with you. Being around women, is attractive TO other women, yes??

 

Also, "networking" by allowing yourself to be okay with friendships with women, can allow you access to their OTHER female friends, right?

 

But lately, I dunno, just been kind of turned off by my 4th or 5th offer of friendship.

 

I used to be okay with it after a few of them, but I'm like "OKAY ENOUGH< with the friendships! Dammit!!" LOL

[Art_Critic]

You can't be just friends with a girl that you see yourself putting the salami to.

You can be just friends with a girl that you don't see in a sexual or romantic interest.

 

Its totally up to you but in reality you meet these women online and get rejected so it would seem that friendship would not work

[irc333]

Yes you can be friends to the hot girl. You see, novice, that hot girls know more hot girls who know more hot girls which leads you to hot girls that'll be receptive to my salami.

 

Right, yes...in situations such as this, perhaps it's okay to be open with having good friendships with SOME Women.

 

I jsut know some guys that had to end friendships with women they developed emotions for. The women said, "Hey, if that's what they need they feel to do, then by all means, do it...and it's okay if theydon't stay in touch anymore."

 

Though I know of social circles that have this TV Show "Friends" situation going on. A lot of hot people hangin' out, with no funny business going on. lol

[irc333]

I actually had to end short lived dating situation with a woman I met online.....she asked me how much money I made...now THAT was a turn off, even for a friendship (also , dangerous in a since a woman is trying to find out what you're financial dollar figures are)

 

I sent her an email saying that I dont think we'd make a good match (yes, she was attractive and very cute) and she kind of felt the same way, but if I ever wanted to b friends, or if I just got lonely and wanted to get together again, she'd be fine with that.

 

I said, "No, sorry....I wish you well in your search."

 

See, I couldn't even be friends with a woman who said that one thing that was off putting.

 

There are sitauitons wherey ou can't even be FRIENDS with a person, much less DATE them.

 

Meaning, if you can't be FRIENDS with them, you sure in the hell can't date them.

[RedRobin]

You can't be just friends with a girl that you see yourself putting the salami to.

You can be just friends with a girl that you don't see in a sexual or romantic interest.

 

Its totally up to you but in reality you meet these women online and get rejected so it would seem that friendship would not work

 

I agree with this... You either have to put the friendship aside or you have to find a way not to be attracted to her that way anymore.

 

As a person who did OLD for awhile, I do 'get it' why so many women are trying the friends first thing.

 

They've probably come across one too many douchbags who just want to sex them up but are basically complete strangers.

 

Are you involved in any other offline activities or meetup groups? You could possibly offer that as a possible option to women who aren't comfortable doing the one-on-one thing immediately.

 

Also, I wouldn't get too wrapped up in someone's story about past history as an excuse for avoiding a relationship. The point here is that she is not 'available' in some way. I had a guy tell me this one time after I asked him out. He made up some thing like he was too emotionally distraught from his divorce.

 

I kinda felt sorry for him, then my one of my very good (and long time married female friends) told me. "I've NEVER met a man who turned down a relationship because they were too emotionally distraught"...

 

I said, "you are SO damned right."... I put this guy immediately in the friendzone (that's obviously where he wanted to be) and life was fine after that.

 

...but back to the having women as friends. I do think it is good to establish friendships with all kinds of people. If you think they are a good person, then go ahead. Ask yourself... "if this person was my same gender, would I still want to be around them?" If no, then they don't qualify as a legitimate 'friend'.

[oldshirt]

As someone who spent years getting sucked into the friendzone I feel your pain. There is a way to get out of the friendzone blackhole though so don't despair.

 

For starters you need to learn to read between the lines a little bit. Basically all women are going to 'SAY' they are looking for friends and are wanting friendship. Noone is going to come out and say they are looking for some di(k for a night, but if they find you attractive and desirable anything is possible so stop putting so much emphasis on what people are saying upfront. Remember actions speak louder than words.

 

I agree with the above poster that lots of people will say they are looking for friendship because it is a defense mechanism against douchebags that are just trying to score some poontang for a night. People are sexual beings and people are interested in meaningfull romantic, sexual relationships. They just don't want to be used as sperm depository for a night and then forgotten. People want to be treated as a whole human being with dignity and respect and basic common courtesy.

 

So basically treat them as a whole human being and talk to them, do things with them, go out and have fun with them but DON'T I repeat DON'T FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY be asexual or act like someone's little gay girlfriend!!!!!!!!! A huge part of being a whole human being is having a romantic/sexual nature so don't for the love of God try to deny that, hide that, ignore that or suppress that!!!!! Acknowledge their romantic/sexual nature every bit as much as their nonsexual nature.

 

Agree to be friends and go out and do things that friends do but DON'T hide your sexuality or your masculinity. Don't try to suppress your romantic or sexual interests and don't try to worm your way into her good graces by pretending to not have a romantic/sexual interest in her.

 

Flirt with her. Tease her. Compliment her. Make sexual innuendos and discuss romantic/sexual ideas and feelings etc. Don't be afraid to touch her and make romantic gestures and advances.

 

Respect her boundries and don't do anything that she is not consenting to but don't for the love of God deny your own sexual being or your own romantic or sexual interests!!!!!!

 

If she doesn't want to go there she won't. Respect her wishes and don't pressure her but if she is not showing any signs of romantic/sexual attraction to you then let her walk away and don't pursue anything further with her.

 

It is important to remain on good friendly terms with someone and it's good to have women in your life that think you are a decent human being for the networking reasons that you mentioned and yes, if you have women on friendly terms in your life that will make you look a million times better to a potential love interest rather than being a loner.

 

HOWEVER ( this is the real important part) do NOT under ANY circumstances try to worm your way into someone's pants by pretending to be asexual and not interested in them romantically/sexually!!!!!!!! That is the critical piece that people have trouble with. People think that a woman's feelings will change if they hide their sexual interests in them...THEY WON'T!!!!! The more you try to appease them through friendship and asexuality the LESS interested in anything romantic/sexual they will become.

 

What will happen is you will spend months trying to be her friend and cuddle-bunny and she will tell you tales of men mistreating her and using her for sex and she will tell you that she isn't ready for a boyfriend and that she has been hurt and not ready for a relationship and then she will screw some guy in the bathroom of a bar that she met 1/2 hour earlier.

 

If you want to have a romantic and sexual life you simply can not spend your time and energy on women that are not attracted to you. You need to do the opposite of what people tell you and you need to wear your romantic and sexual feelings on your sleeve. You can treat women with dignity and respect and you can respect their comfort levels and boundries but you absolutely cannot try to worm your way into their hearts and into their beds by trying to hide and suppress your sexuality and masculinity.

 

You must be a whole human being and you must treat them as whole human beings and a big party of people's humanities is that they do have romantic and sexual natures so you can not achieve that by trying to hide that.

Edited April 15, 2012 by oldshirt

[jobaba]

You can't be just friends with a girl that you see yourself putting the salami to.

You can be just friends with a girl that you don't see in a sexual or romantic interest.

 

Its totally up to you but in reality you meet these women online and get rejected so it would seem that friendship would not work

 

Yes you can.

 

I have imagined' putting the salami' to all my female friends, whether attractive (in the eyes of society) or not. So wanting to have sex with a woman and being friends with her... not a problem.

 

Now ... being friends with a woman you have feelings for ... a little more difficult. I have many female friends and a few of them are among my best friends. They can also introduce you to other females.

 

I have three friends (two guys, one gal) who all dated each other (not guy/guy combination) in serious relationships, and then cheated on each other with the other and they are all still friends. It's all what the individual can handle.

Edited April 15, 2012 by jobaba

[irc333]

So basically treat them as a whole human being and talk to them, do things with them, go out and have fun with them but DON'T I repeat DON'T FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY be asexual or act like someone's little gay girlfriend!!!!!!!!! A huge part of being a whole human being is having a romantic/sexual nature so don't for the love of God try to deny that, hide that, ignore that or suppress that!!!!! Acknowledge their romantic/sexual nature every bit as much as their nonsexual nature.

 

Exactly, but why is it women seem to somehow encourage a straight man to act like a gay friend? That's what I don't get, and also expect the guy to act AGAINST their human nature?

 

Remember back in the good ol days when women didn't friendzone men? Of course, I wasn't alive back then, but up speaking from the baby boomer generation and younger.

 

You always hear stories of how some man, points at some random woman int he room he has the hots for, and says, "That's going to be my future wife"

 

And 60 anniverseries and 20 great-grand kids later, they're still married to this say.

 

We have to blame the woman's liberation for this whole friendzone thing, don't mean to gender bash, but that's the reality of the situation. Women expect straight men to be their gay friend to some extent.

[fortyninethousand322]

That's a totally different ballgame though. The Friendzone has nothing to do with friendship. It has to do with attention seeking. 99% of the time women aren't stupid. They know the guy they put in the FZ has the hots for them. But they don't have the hots back, so they either wimp out and not be straight with them or they like having the attention so they give out little crumbs of hope to make sure they guy doesn't go and get a real girlfriend (or a real friend who's a girl). Can't have that can we?

[irc333]

What will happen is you will spend months trying to be her friend and cuddle-bunny and she will tell you tales of men mistreating her and using her for sex and she will tell you that she isn't ready for a boyfriend and that she has been hurt and not ready for a relationship and then she will screw some guy in the bathroom of a bar that she met 1/2 hour earlier.

 

If you want to have a romantic and sexual life you simply can not spend your time and energy on women that are not attracted to you. You need to do the opposite of what people tell you and you need to wear your romantic and sexual feelings on your sleeve. You can treat women with dignity and respect and you can respect their comfort levels and boundries but you absolutely cannot try to worm your way into their hearts and into their beds by trying to hide and suppress your sexuality and masculinity.

 

There is this one woman, apparently she did all this online, and finally met a guy (me) that doesn't come off as some sexually deviant pervert only looknig for one thing, on the other hand, she IS concerned that if she just only wants a friendship with me, and is also afriad I might want more....and doesn't want our "friensdhip" to end because of it.

 

I mean, I'm suppose to be with her at a local, campout activity with our activity group, but I haven't been able to get her to go out with me one-on-one...she side stepped that after our first hike together, but seems to just only be interested in seeing me in group activities.

 

I might attempt to ask her out once again after that event, but if she doesn't seem interested , and I'll move forward... maintaining min. contact. Of course, it sounds like she can't go anywhere alone without having her hand held (figuratively)

[verhrzn]

I am a strong supporter of guys having female platonic friends. It has a lot of the benefits, many of which you listed.

 

I think where you're getting burned is you're using friendship as a consolation prize... going to women you find attractive, and when they reject you, trying to be friends with them. That's a recipe for disaster.

 

Instead, try messaging women you don't find physically attractive. Make it clear that you're not looking for anything romantic and just saw that you have similar hobbies. This is a great way to get yourself some platonic female friends without really CARING that you're in the friend zone.

[irc333]

Instead, try messaging women you don't find physically attractive. Make it clear that you're not looking for anything romantic and just saw that you have similar hobbies. This is a great way to get yourself some platonic female friends without really CARING that you're in the friend zone.

 

Funny, I had did that a few times, only to not get responses then either. But, then I'm thinking, I'd just be fooling myself.

 

Besides, I tend to find a lot of women attractive that most men don't find attractive. So it's all perspective.

[verhrzn]

Funny, I had did that a few times, only to not get responses then either. But, then I'm thinking, I'd just be fooling myself.

 

Besides, I tend to find a lot of women attractive that most men don't find attractive. So it's all perspective.

 

Don't worry, there are plenty of ugly women out there who will be your friend, it just takes a while... just like it takes a while to become friends with, anyone. I mean, you're not friends with every single person you've met in real life right?

[RedRobin]

"Ugly" women want love too...

 

*sigh*

 

You know what I do when I first look at a profile?

 

I don't look at the pics at all. Or do my darndest not to. If I like what I read... THEN I look at the pics to see if it squares with my impression of what I just read.

[verhrzn]

"Ugly" women want love too...

 

*sigh*

 

You know what I do when I first look at a profile?

 

I don't look at the pics at all. Or do my darndest not to. If I like what I read... THEN I look at the pics to see if it squares with my impression of what I just read.

 

Yeah we want love too.... but we're never gonna get it, so might as well accept guys using us as "learning tools" so they can get with actual hot chicks. It's been my role for years and hey, something is better than nothing.

[irc333]

Don't worry, there are plenty of ugly women out there who will be your friend, it just takes a while... just like it takes a while to become friends with, anyone. I mean, you're not friends with every single person you've met in real life right?

 

 

Well, online...intentions are different.

 

In real life, when I"m out and about, I'm more apt to be friends with people in general, because I know I'll be seeing them routinely anyways.

 

This does kind of open up a whole new situation. I know some women, that won't talk to you, or do their best to be short with you in real life, purposely not trying to engage you in converation.

 

With some of these events I attend, you usually never see them again anyway. Be it a hiking group, day at the beach with the locals, or bike riding gathering. Chances are, they see a bunch of people, hoping some good looking hunk (or in the case of men, looking for good looking babes) at these Meetup events

 

There was some guy here, that posted how he has been attending Meetup.com events for the past couple of years, and is considering going away from them.....because all he bumps into are unattractive people (or at the very least average looking). Some try an event out one time, and then you never see them again....I consider those people kind of phoney, because they don't know what it's like to develop a friendship, they just have a one track mind.

 

Some wind up being No-Shows because they see the RSVP list full of average Joe/ Janes and never show up. Says a lot about THEIR character.

[RedRobin]

I came reaaally close to telling my good friend (who is over 60 and still not over his childhood trauma)...

 

You are only as 'broken' as you wanna be.

 

You, Verhzn, are only as 'ugly' as you wanna be.

 

There are people who are objectively MUCH 'uglier' than you who find love.

 

Case in point...

 

The man who probably single handedly 'convinced' me to accept a position at a certain large multi-national corporation which shall remain nameless.

 

I was having misgivings about their corporate culture and was feeling pretty spent from the all of the lead up to this big interview I was getting.

 

I was looking for a building... and this man with a horribly disfigured face saw my distress and asked if I needed help. Seeing him, I contained my surprise and said "yes thank you!" and he proceeded to give me directions. Later the same day, I saw him in the cafeteria, and he asked me if I'd found where I needed to go. I told him yes, I had, and thanked him again.

 

His single act of kindness is what tipped the balance in favor of working there.

 

flash forward... seven years later, I'm on the steering committee of a 'leadership' group and I'm privileged to get to have dinner with Mr. So and So. I'd heard good things about him, but never saw what he looked like.

 

To my surprise, it was him!! I reminded him of our interaction, and told him pretty much the same story I just told you.

 

The man was burned over 3/4 of his body in a house fire when he was a child. He is happily married with 3 children, and is a direct report to the VP of said organization.

 

Now, you can make excuses all day why your supposed 'ugliness' keeps you from finding love or anything else in life.

 

I'm not buying it.

[verhrzn]

 

The man who probably single handedly 'convinced' me to accept a position at a certain large multi-national corporation which shall remain nameless.

 

I was having misgivings about their corporate culture and was feeling pretty spent from the all of the lead up to this big interview I was getting.

 

I was looking for a building... and this man with a horribly disfigured face saw my distress and asked if I needed help. Seeing him, I contained my surprise and said "yes thank you!" and he proceeded to give me directions. Later the same day, I saw him in the cafeteria, and he asked me if I'd found where I needed to go. I told him yes, I had, and thanked him again.

 

His single act of kindness is what tipped the balance in favor of working there.

 

flash forward... seven years later, I'm on the steering committee of a 'leadership' group and I'm privileged to get to have dinner with Mr. So and So. I'd heard good things about him, but never saw what he looked like.

 

To my surprise, it was him!! I reminded him of our interaction, and told him pretty much the same story I just told you.

 

The man was burned over 3/4 of his body in a house fire when he was a child. He is happily married with 3 children, and is a direct report to the VP of said organization.

 

Now, you can make excuses all day why your supposed 'ugliness' keeps you from finding love or anything else in life.

 

I'm not buying it.

 

Yeah, some people get lucky. And men can overcome their "ugliness." But this board has proven over and over that unless you have fantastic luck, a man decides to settle for you, or you have the most amazing personality in the world (you are the epitome of kindness, intelligence, humor and confidence with absolutely no other flaws except your looks), an ugly woman doesn't stand a chance.

 

Except to be "practice" for guys, of course.

[RedRobin]

Yeah, some people get lucky. And men can overcome their "ugliness." But this board has proven over and over that unless you have fantastic luck, a man decides to settle for you, or you have the most amazing personality in the world (you are the epitome of kindness, intelligence, humor and confidence with absolutely no other flaws except your looks), an ugly woman doesn't stand a chance.

 

Except to be "practice" for guys, of course.

 

Alrighty then. Suit yourself.

 

There is some reason why you choose to be persistently negative about your own chances for love and the motivations for others.

 

I recommended a book to you about learning how to be more optimistic. It can be learned. You'll have to cut the cord on the rational/logical side though. I DO get that. Takes some doing. Some people are as addicted to negativity as others are to heroin and booze. I'm as guilty as anyone of that.

 

I have another favorite saying... would you rather be happy or would you rather be 'right'?

[verhrzn]

Alrighty then. Suit yourself.

 

There is some reason why you choose to be persistently negative about your own chances for love and the motivations for others.

 

I recommended a book to you about learning how to be more optimistic. It can be learned. You'll have to cut the cord on the rational/logical side though. I DO get that. Takes some doing. Some people are as addicted to negativity as others are to heroin and booze. I'm as guilty as anyone of that.

 

I have another favorite saying... would you rather be happy or would you rather be 'right'?

 

I'd rather be right. I mean, what good is it to be delusional?? Isn't that what everyone is blasting Samantha Brick for-being unrealistic? (That women hate her because she's so beautiful.)

 

But sure, what's the book?

[RedRobin]

Amazon.com: Learned Optimism: How to Change Your Mind and Your Life (9780671019112): Martin Seligman: Books

 

Here ya go!

[Cypress25]

Remember back in the good ol days when women didn't friendzone men?

 

Yes they did. They just said it differently. Instead of saying "let's just be friends," they would say "I'm not interested in dating you." They both mean the same thing. The offer of friendship is just a polite way of rejecting you. It's a woman's way of saying she's not attracted to you.

 

You don't have to be friends with women if you don't want to. It's up to you. But keep in mind that if a woman is attracted to you, she won't say "let's just be friends."

[irc333]

Yes they did. They just said it differently. Instead of saying "let's just be friends," they would say "I'm not interested in dating you." They both mean the same thing. The offer of friendship is just a polite way of rejecting you. It's a woman's way of saying she's not attracted to you.

 

You don't have to be friends with women if you don't want to. It's up to you. But keep in mind that if a woman is attracted to you, she won't say "let's just be friends."

 

 

Well, I guess if you put it that way, they just let you know up front that they aren't interested, and of course, you'd never see them again.

[RedRobin]

Well, online...intentions are different.

 

In real life, when I"m out and about, I'm more apt to be friends with people in general, because I know I'll be seeing them routinely anyways.

 

This does kind of open up a whole new situation. I know some women, that won't talk to you, or do their best to be short with you in real life, purposely not trying to engage you in converation.

 

With some of these events I attend, you usually never see them again anyway. Be it a hiking group, day at the beach with the locals, or bike riding gathering. Chances are, they see a bunch of people, hoping some good looking hunk (or in the case of men, looking for good looking babes) at these Meetup events

 

There was some guy here, that posted how he has been attending Meetup.com events for the past couple of years, and is considering going away from them.....because all he bumps into are unattractive people (or at the very least average looking). Some try an event out one time, and then you never see them again....I consider those people kind of phoney, because they don't know what it's like to develop a friendship, they just have a one track mind.

 

Some wind up being No-Shows because they see the RSVP list full of average Joe/ Janes and never show up. Says a lot about THEIR character.

 

I've been guilty of this. Not doing the no-show... but taking a look at the attendee list and making a decision based on that.

 

In my area, there are 86 men for every 100 women. Alot of the meetup events I go to are an estrogen fest. Even in the 'outdoorsy' groups.

 

There is maybe one guy, and 8 women. And the one guy is always bringing a guest (ie taken). I'm not kidding. Then, if you DO go to one, the women act like catty b*tches all clawing for the same guy... strutting around and trying to be your frenemy so that they can get the scoop on you. It's kind of gross. Not fun at all. My last serious BF was someone I met at a Meetup event (yea, so I guess I did fend off the catty b*tches ).

 

Even though it didn't work out, he and I are still very good friends. I helped him set up his OkC account and he's volunteered to introduce me to some of his friends in his running group. So, I guess this would be a 'success'. Still. I wasn't fond of the group dynamics overall.

 

This is one of the biggest reasons why I'm moving. The male/female ratio where I currently live is pathetic.

[Cypress25]

Well, I guess if you put it that way, they just let you know up front that they aren't interested, and of course, you'd never see them again.

 

Yeah they probably should, but a lot of women have been socialized to be nice to everyone and never hurt anyone's feelings, so it's hard for them to be straightforward. To them, "let's just be friends" is a polite way of saying "I don't find you attractive."

 

I admit, I have a hard time rejecting guys myself, especially if they seem like perfectly nice guys. But I don't want to confuse them by saying "let's just be friends," so instead, I lie to them. I'll say I'm already seeing someone, even if I'm not.

 

I'm not recommending this, mind you. It's just how I deal with the uncomfortable moment when I have to reject a guy for the sole reason that I'm not attracted to him. I don't want to hurt his feelings or embarrass him, so I tell a little white lie.