KathyM Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 KathyM, while I agree with the bulk of your deeper explanation of sexual addiction, this part makes me think that a lot of the wives/partners are confusing their desire for the man to stop his behavior, with his desire to stop it. When it comes to porn, prostitutes, and affairs, I view them for the most part as a lack of character, honor, and integrity in a man. IMHO, most of the men/partners who claim sexual addiction are just looking for an easy medical cop-out for their lack of control. The same could be said for gambling--that it is a character issue, and not an addiction, yet people feel powerless to control it, and it takes over their lives. Gambling is actually diagnosed as an impulse control disorder, rather than an addiction, in the Diagnostic Manual for Mental Disorders, and illegal or destructive sexual practices could also be diagnosed as an impulse control disorder under certain conditions. Here are the diagnostic criteria for pathological gambling. If we insert sex in there instead of gambling, you will see what I mean: A. Persistent and recurrent maladaptive sexual behavior as indicated by five or more of the following: 1. Is preoccupied with sex. 2. Needs to have sex in progressively increasing amounts in order to achieve the desired excitement. 3. Has repeated unsuccessful efforts to control, cut back, or stop harmful sexual behavior. 4. Is restless or irritable when attempting to cut down or stop harmful sexual practices. 5. After harmful sexual practices results in negative consequences, the person often returns another day to continue the behavior. 6. Lies to family members, therapist, or others to conceal the extent of involvement. 7. Has committed illegal acts, such as having sex with prostitutes or minors. 8. Has jeopardized or lost a significant relationship, job or educational or career opportunity because of the maladaptive sexual practice. 9. Relies on others to bail him out of the negative consequences of the behavior. Could be clinically diagnosed as "Impulse Control Disorder Not Otherwise Specified" (not currently specified in the diagnostic manual as related to sex per se, but nevertheless an impulse control disorder.
dreamingoftigers Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 Wow...just in time to prove the point..thanks. As if some online survey is going to diagnose an obscure, debatable, and over used disorder. Give me a break. BTW, DOT I have read your story...if your husband was as you described, then he does have a problem. makes me think that a lot of the wives/partners are confusing their desire for the man to stop his behavior, with his desire to stop it. Yes, he does. The good news is that he has been committed (firmly this time thank God) to recovery for the last 4-5 months. Before that there was a lot of half heartedness and bull**** hidden things. He really is a totally different person when he is free of a lot of that. Truth be told I have had a lot of issues with sexual compulsivity. A lot of those issues were rooted in childhood trauma and sometimes with parents that are so oppressive or inconsistent, sex can be the only coping skill one has. That doesn't sound as clear as I would like it to so I will try to articulate it better: When you have a childhood where your parents randomly shame and neglect you and/or it is just completely consistent and out of control while your brain is still developing, sex can become that one "safe place" that no one else can get into or take from you. Plus the physiological relaxation etc that it gives helps you cope and dull all of the unwanted feelings of shame etc. No one can watch you 24/7 and so sexual release can (in an abusive home) be pretty much the only joy you can get from your day/surroundings. It can also be a misguided step towards independence and rebellion (ESP in my husbands case, his mother being a fanatic Jehovah's Witness. Nothing specifically about JW's there, aside from the fact that their belief system is somewhat more "closed" then most, more emphasis on the FANATIC and SHAME part). sexual compulsives/addicts (its spectral, I think I fall more unto the compulsive range, lost the dependency aspect after EMDR therapy) go onto to form relationships and at first everything is delightful and the sex is new and amazing. What happens after that is that intimacy produces really heavy anxiety. The closer you get to another human being, the more the fear of being controlled (or the reality of being controlled) pops up. Of course that learned behavior that has grown into compulsion is VERY DIFFICULT to extinguish. Especially when the results are equivalent to a drug high.
dreamingoftigers Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 ^^^^ Agreed. And I think sometimes its easier for the BS to say they have a sexual addiction, than to face the fact that they are M to someone with that lack of control. In my case, hearing Sexual Addiction was far more horrifying then: your husband is a selfish jack-ass. I would have LOVED for my husband to be a selfish jack-ass and that is what I thought initially. The same reason I was going to kick his ass to the curb without looking back 3 years ago. Unfortunately/fortunately he was diagnosed as having sexual addiction. This meant that under the circumstances of my beliefs, I was to do all that I could to face this challenge and preserve my family. Sexual Addiction was like a death sentence: only 5% ever recover. Nit treat odds. If it were cancer, I would be planning a funeral. On my threads, one can find a wickedly horrible journey that I didn't know how to take with someone so mentally ill. I could empathize with it being a mental illness of sorts because I was suicidal when I was younger. It didn't make me weak, lazy, a coward or selfish. In fact, at the time, I thought in my skewed judgment that it would be better for everyone if I killed myself. I could see my husband's judgment being "off" and the compulsion for him taking over. At times it felt like he was possessed by a demon that only he could conquer, and the more he fed it, the bigger it grew and the more influence it had. My journey through a lot if this was crushing, painful and blue. But I didn't lose sight of what I wanted (except for brief times like in October/November). I wasn't going to just walk because my husband wasn't afflicted with the most popular disease. 1
findingnemo Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 Okay, now I get the whole "sex addict" thing. But I maintain, I don't think serial cheaters are sex addicts. And based on the test and Kathy's criteria, I know no sex addicts among the multiple serial cheaters I've encountered. Thanks for the info. I will educate the next woman that tells me that her H cheats because he's a sex addict.
dreamingoftigers Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 The two don't universally overlap, but they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive either.
dreamingoftigers Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 I find it fascinating that you posted about gambling. In fact, pornography and gambling light up the same circuitry in the brain. It helped myself and a psychiatric nurse start a new treatment to reduce the hold of the compulsion on those addicted to porn. My husband was her pilot project in Victoria last year. Apparently it helped tremendously in dealing with the pornography portion of his compulsion. It was really great of him to allow himself to be a guinea pig for the treatment. She is publishing a paper about it. (although it really was MY idea. But whatever, as long as it helps people). Last year after thumping my head against a wall for so long with this and my husband saying he felt hopeless against it to the point where he was thinking suicidal thoughts: my friend mentioned she was quitting smoking by hypnosis. I mentioned that she could try the laser because my husband quit 5 years prior after one 45 minute session and that it was supposed to work for anything addic------ Holy cow! So I started looking up gambling treatments, remembering the link between the two (by the way, gentlemen, that is why poker sites advertise popups all over porn sites, for your "down" time.) I found a place in Windsor that deals in laser treatment for gambling and I had already put together a treatment plan for my h (that we ended up not being able to afford, but at least he had the laser) The same could be said for gambling--that it is a character issue, and not an addiction, yet people feel powerless to control it, and it takes over their lives. Gambling is actually diagnosed as an impulse control disorder, rather than an addiction, in the Diagnostic Manual for Mental Disorders, and illegal or destructive sexual practices could also be diagnosed as an impulse control disorder under certain conditions. Here are the diagnostic criteria for pathological gambling. If we insert sex in there instead of gambling, you will see what I mean: A. Persistent and recurrent maladaptive sexual behavior as indicated by five or more of the following: 1. Is preoccupied with sex. 2. Needs to have sex in progressively increasing amounts in order to achieve the desired excitement. 3. Has repeated unsuccessful efforts to control, cut back, or stop harmful sexual behavior. 4. Is restless or irritable when attempting to cut down or stop harmful sexual practices. 5. After harmful sexual practices results in negative consequences, the person often returns another day to continue the behavior. 6. Lies to family members, therapist, or others to conceal the extent of involvement. 7. Has committed illegal acts, such as having sex with prostitutes or minors. 8. Has jeopardized or lost a significant relationship, job or educational or career opportunity because of the maladaptive sexual practice. 9. Relies on others to bail him out of the negative consequences of the behavior. Could be clinically diagnosed as "Impulse Control Disorder Not Otherwise Specified" (not currently specified in the diagnostic manual as related to sex per se, but nevertheless an impulse control disorder.
trinity1 Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 What happens after that is that intimacy produces really heavy anxiety. The closer you get to another human being, the more the fear of being controlled (or the reality of being controlled) pops up. Do I recognize this!
wannabdone Posted April 17, 2012 Posted April 17, 2012 I find it fascinating that you posted about gambling. In fact, pornography and gambling light up the same circuitry in the brain. It helped myself and a psychiatric nurse start a new treatment to reduce the hold of the compulsion on those addicted to porn. My husband was her pilot project in Victoria last year. Apparently it helped tremendously in dealing with the pornography portion of his compulsion. It was really great of him to allow himself to be a guinea pig for the treatment. She is publishing a paper about it. (although it really was MY idea. But whatever, as long as it helps people). Last year after thumping my head against a wall for so long with this and my husband saying he felt hopeless against it to the point where he was thinking suicidal thoughts: my friend mentioned she was quitting smoking by hypnosis. I mentioned that she could try the laser because my husband quit 5 years prior after one 45 minute session and that it was supposed to work for anything addic------ Holy cow! So I started looking up gambling treatments, remembering the link between the two (by the way, gentlemen, that is why poker sites advertise popups all over porn sites, for your "down" time.) I found a place in Windsor that deals in laser treatment for gambling and I had already put together a treatment plan for my h (that we ended up not being able to afford, but at least he had the laser) Interesting that you said that porn and gambling hit the same portion of the brain, I did not know that. My therapist said there were studies how cheating did the same thing (hit the portion of the brain as gambling)...since it produces the same effect that "you might win, you might lose" type of thing. I'm going to have to google search that, I find that stuff fascinating.
standtall Posted April 17, 2012 Posted April 17, 2012 (edited) If we insert sex in there instead of gambling, you will see what I mean: A. Persistent and recurrent maladaptive sexual behavior as indicated by five or more of the following: 1. Is preoccupied with sex......... 3. Has repeated unsuccessful efforts to control, cut back, or stop harmful sexual behavior..... Kathy..again thanks for proving this point. the term sexual addiction is used way to loosely by the "click and paste" internet scholars Your gambling adapted to sex addict checklist is the apex of "click and Paste", heck hitting 5 checkpoints on your list can describe 2/3 of every man on the planet. Lets go over them one by one 1. Is preoccupied with sex. Check, virtually every male that has hit puberty. That's 1 for me 2. Needs to have sex in progressively increasing amounts in order to achieve the desired excitement. Check, it's called aging and having sex with the same person in a monogamous relationship.Check, that's 2 for me. 3. Has repeated unsuccessful efforts to control, cut back, or stop harmful sexual behavior. By whose definition of harmful sexual behavior? The wife's/partner's? This is way too broad. Does this mean asking for too much sex, or a favorite thing in the bedroom? Right now, I'm at 3. 4. Is restless or irritable when attempting to cut down or stop harmful sexual practices. Again, who defines harmful? If a wife is cutting him off from say oral sex that she says is against her religion and harmful, of course he is going to be irritated. I'm at 4 now. 5. After harmful sexual practices results in negative consequences, the person often returns another day to continue the behavior. See above with harmful. I'm at 5 when I ask her again. 6. Lies to family members, therapist, or others to conceal the extent of involvement. Sex is not public or a family topic. This is a gambling related issue.This does not apply. 7. Has committed illegal acts, such as having sex with prostitutes or minors. This is just criminal behavior, not sex addiction 8. Has jeopardized or lost a significant relationship, job or educational or career opportunity because of the maladaptive sexual practice. Real broad here. Again, who defines "maladaptive"? I am sure that a lot of couples do not always like what their partner does in the bedroom. Many a couple have gotten divorced/split over sexual incompatibility issues, it does mean that there is a sex addict lurking 9. Relies on others to bail him out of the negative consequences of the behavior. Short of bailing them out of jail for criminal behavior, how does this apply to sex? Again, this is related to gambling. With the complexities of human sexual behavior, you cannot condemn someone as a sex addict by a check list. Besides, some of the items on the check list you described are not applicable to sex, and most of them use way too broad terms such as "maladaptive" and "harmful" without stating who or what defines it. Short of criminal sexual behavior, anything that a person wants in the bedroom is what most people consider normal sexual behavior. By your checklist any man that asks for too much oral/sex/anything or gets caught rubbing one out to a dirty picture and the wife/SO is offended, he is now a sex addict. Sorry, I not buying it. Edited April 17, 2012 by standtall
Spark1111 Posted April 17, 2012 Posted April 17, 2012 Standtall, I think you are missing the point. A sex addict will get all the oral he wants from his wife, but still wants it from strangers, many, that he will pay for using joint funds until caught. He actually, may not care all that much if she won't indulge his fetishes, whatever they might be, because he will have them fulfilled elsewhere. Or, he will keep trying because her needs are not that important to him. Porn? He will spend hours, in increasing length and frequency, to the detriment of his job and family life and the real, breathing woman in his bed, to view more and more insane images to acheive the same high. He is not viewing to occasionally rub one out. If, it is truly a sex addiction, it will increase in ferocity, time, and negative consequences, some life-altering, because he cannot control AT ALL, his urges......... like any other TRUE addiction. For example, he is home watching his young children, but he needs a fix and begins to view porn sites with them walking around the room. You get this?
standtall Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 (edited) Yes, "I get this" as you so condescendingly point out, but she didn't say anything about getting oral from strangers, or spending money,or anything about increasing frequency or length, or getting his fix in front of the kids in her click and paste check list...you added those in your follow up post. The check list is what I had the issue with..it is too vague and can apply to the majority of men. If the poster had a point to make, she should have stated it plainly rather then post some bulls*** checklist. I am not denying that there is sexual addiction, what I am arguing is that it is a frequently over used term that is to vaguely defined, and is used by a lot of female posters to condemn any type of sexual behavior by their male SOs that they do not approve of. If you bothered to read my post, then you should "get it " too. Edited April 18, 2012 by standtall
jphcbpa Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 they are probably more love/romance addicts Okay, now I get the whole "sex addict" thing. But I maintain, I don't think serial cheaters are sex addicts. And based on the test and Kathy's criteria, I know no sex addicts among the multiple serial cheaters I've encountered. Thanks for the info. I will educate the next woman that tells me that her H cheats because he's a sex addict.
jphcbpa Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 Tiger Woods says hi i dont believe in "sex addiction", there needs to be anther term to describe the obsessive behaviour of some people regarding sex, but i dont believe it should categorised with people who are dependant on addictive substances or alcohol. 1
LoveTKO Posted April 18, 2012 Posted April 18, 2012 (edited) I think that breaking it down into specific behavior patterns doesn't explain whether or not a person is addicted (sex with strangers, paying for sex, watching porn) because a lot of men engage in this type of behavior. A behavior pattern can be classified as an addiction if it consumes and interferes with your daily life to the point that you can't stop thinking about it, or feel the need to act it out. There probably is a strong correlation between sex addiction/compulsion and having been sexually abused as a minor, since a lack of sexual boundaries and the compulsion to act out is often a sign of abuse. I think about sex all the time and want to do all sorts of kinky (legal) stuff too, but I don't act it out or feel empty when I don't get it. A very high sex drive is probably an apt classification in my case. And since I'm also addicted to kissing, affection, and looking int a woman's eyes, I get my needs satisfied because it's all autopilot from there on. Edited April 18, 2012 by LoveTKO 1
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