How Could I Succeed By Giving Up?

[zengirl]

Um, I guess the friction is coming from "reasonably achievable." What would you say is a reasonable goal? Cause I honestly can't think of anyone. My current "goal" is "attempt to sew an apron." But that seems like a kind of junky long term goal...

 

You can start with sewing an apron. That's super-achievable. I have no doubt that's 100% achievable for anyone (without a debilitating motor skills disease) if they wanted it badly enough and worked long enough. You're right that such a goal is less likely than others to jog you out of a big funk, but start with the apron. Just don't end there. You can also have more than one goal at a time.

 

Reasonably achievable is "within the realm of possibility." I'd also say it's something you work towards. When someone says, "I want to win the lottery," that's not reasonably achievable because there's nothing you can really DO to make that any more or less likely (I mean, buying a ticket matters, but hardly). I also think that picking something you can break down into "steps" later helps. Not something that happens all at once, but something that you can see coming up or growing or whatever.

 

Take your current view of "reasonably achievable" and expand it by like 1000x. Then you might have a full view of it. Again, forget HOW and WHEN you're going to do it right now. That cannot be known yet. First, decide what you want to do.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I've posted before about my terrible divorce. My ex husband went back to using heroin. We had a daughter, home, wonderful business, great friends. His addiction and resulting criminal and violent behavior destroyed IT ALL.

 

I wanted to die. I could save nothing. I was in my late 40's.

 

My way out was to somehow remove my thinking from all of that (for mere moments per day, usually) and imagine a life that would be a good one for me, that was possible. That was my "beacon of hope" and gave me something to look and walk towards.

 

You can do something like this too, if you were not so devoted to your comfort zone of being miserable.

[xxoo]

The thing is, if I table it for now, why would I bother picking it up later? Why would a later point of my life be any better? And if I COULD table the desire for a relationship, I wonder why would I bother later on in life? If I could stop wanting a relationship, I can't fathom why I'd put myself out there again for more rejection and bitterness.

 

Being happy without something doesn't necessarily mean you stop wanting it.

 

You would put yourself out there again because you'd have a new perspective, and will be able to see how and why things didn't go well in the past.

 

You seem so focused on the relationship that you don't have, it is affecting your enjoyment of life right now. Why is that?

 

And if travel excites you, then travel! Put every spare penny toward that goal, and make it happen.

[verhrzn]

Okay, screw the 'reasonably achievable' bit then, since I have a niggly feeling that your definition of it is quite different from the rest of ours'. How about a goal that just doesn't involve another person's compliance?

 

(Not trying to be argumentative, this is really just my brain): Doesn't every goal require another person's compliance? I mean, my new goal could be "get a better paying job." But that depends on other people wanting to hire me. My new goal could be "get into graduate school," but that depends on departments accepting me. Heck, even my current goal of "get green sash" depends on my boss letting me off of my shift early so I can make it to training.

 

Honestly, the only goals I can think of that don't involve other people are things like: "Sew an apron." "Get a B in the programming class you are taking."

 

I dunno. This all just seems like "Eh you're gonna be alone anyway." I get that the whole purpose is to be "happy no matter what".... but it still bums me out majorly that I can't get the only thing I ever wanted.

 

And I mean... giving up on a family and dating, I just kinda feel like, meh, why bother having goals. I don't really feel like trying to force myself to "improve" just for the sake of improving, if it isn't gonna get me anywhere.

 

I don't know how to explain it. It's like, if I COULD just give up, nothing would matter. I could just, ya know, chill in my lonely and boring life and not care. Without a relationship/family, I don't really see why I should bother with my life.

[xxoo]

And I mean... giving up on a family and dating, I just kinda feel like, meh, why bother having goals. I don't really feel like trying to force myself to "improve" just for the sake of improving, if it isn't gonna get me anywhere.

 

I don't know how to explain it. It's like, if I COULD just give up, nothing would matter. I could just, ya know, chill in my lonely and boring life and not care. Without a relationship/family, I don't really see why I should bother with my life.

 

Stop saying "give up"! Can you see the difference between giving up, and changing focus for the time being?

 

Even once you have a relationship, it is incredibly important to learn the value of "tabling" things you feel strongly about. It is a helpful strategy when you are having trouble finding a solution.

[Mme. Chaucer]

(Not trying to be argumentative, this is really just my brain): Doesn't every goal require another person's compliance? I mean, my new goal could be "get a better paying job." But that depends on other people wanting to hire me. My new goal could be "get into graduate school," but that depends on departments accepting me. Heck, even my current goal of "get green sash" depends on my boss letting me off of my shift early so I can make it to training.

 

I really hope you are aware that looking at EVERY SiNGLE THING this way is a CHOICE of yours. If YOU are not willing to take a leap of faith and abandon your tried and true self-defeating patterns (based on "why try when failure is certain, and I have the argument to prove it") then you can just remain as you are.

 

Your choice.

[zengirl]

(Not trying to be argumentative, this is really just my brain): Doesn't every goal require another person's compliance?

 

Sure, and TBH I actually did set, "Find a man to marry," (that's basically what I did with that Half-Orange book) as a goal at one point not long before I met hubby. But I think starting there, before you understand how to achieve goals where you don't have a set path to achieving them, is poor form. It's kind of like trying to start a 1st grader in AP Calculus. It's just pointless.

 

So, I guess you need to be specific but not too specific. If your goal is to get X job that's open right now at X company, then that's too specific too. But your goal can't just be "get a better job." How do you work towards that? What kind of a job? How is it better? What would you do? What would your work space and colleagues be like? Etc. You have to be able to fill in the details without getting stuck on them. And starting with romance is just not going to work because it's the area of most people's lives that is the least within their control.

 

Technically, getting a B in X class relies on at least one other person (the Prof) too, and possibly your classmates, etc. All goals rely on other people to a degree, I guess. It's just differing degrees.

 

I dunno. This all just seems like "Eh you're gonna be alone anyway." I get that the whole purpose is to be "happy no matter what".... but it still bums me out majorly that I can't get the only thing I ever wanted.

 

Personally, I think you can get it, but you have to get happier and build other skills first. So, you may not get it, if you don't change your life. But that's well within your power.

 

And I mean... giving up on a family and dating, I just kinda feel like, meh, why bother having goals. I don't really feel like trying to force myself to "improve" just for the sake of improving, if it isn't gonna get me anywhere.

 

Life is not transactional. Improving yourself and your circumstances should generally make you happy. Goals that don't make you happy (overall) when working towards them are bad goals.

[verhrzn]

Life is not transactional. Improving yourself and your circumstances should generally make you happy. Goals that don't make you happy (overall) when working towards them are bad goals.

 

Well I suppose that's really the crux of it. Achieving goals doesn't make me happy. I know that seems strange, but I don't feel happy when I complete X project. I'm not happier by achieving things. I also don't feel happy working through things. I just... don't enjoy the journey.

 

Goals just make me feel... pressured. Like," Great, one more thing to try and fail at." Because that's the other thing-I ALWAYS fail. And I'm kind of sick of failing.

 

Maybe it's just that nothing makes me happy, and I've tried everything. I've tried tons of hobbies, I've tried "drastic" things that are supposed to be fun and adventurous, and just found them stressful and draining.

 

I dunno. I've tried everything recommended to change my life, short of this whole "giving up" thing. Which I guess is what I have to do... give up and just accept my sh*tty existence, and know that even THAT won't bring me what I want. Guess some people were just born to have sucky lives.

[ThaWholigan]

Well I suppose that's really the crux of it. Achieving goals doesn't make me happy. I know that seems strange, but I don't feel happy when I complete X project. I'm not happier by achieving things. I also don't feel happy working through things. I just... don't enjoy the journey.

 

Goals just make me feel... pressured. Like," Great, one more thing to try and fail at." Because that's the other thing-I ALWAYS fail. And I'm kind of sick of failing.

 

Maybe it's just that nothing makes me happy, and I've tried everything. I've tried tons of hobbies, I've tried "drastic" things that are supposed to be fun and adventurous, and just found them stressful and draining.

 

I dunno. I've tried everything recommended to change my life, short of this whole "giving up" thing. Which I guess is what I have to do... give up and just accept my sh*tty existence, and know that even THAT won't bring me what I want. Guess some people were just born to have sucky lives.

You know....sometimes I think humans are designed to fail at stuff. The amount of times I have failed at things in my life is quite vast. Sure, I've been able to get over a lot of my ailments quite quickly, but in all seriousness I have tried and failed pretty hard, even at things I'm good at!

 

This is kinda stupid, but you have to get used to failing. Success doesn't usually come before failure.

[zengirl]

V, The thing is. . . you don't find the journey fun because you find goals stressful (and thus are fixating too much on the results). If there is truly no journey in your life you'd like to take. . . I guess that is hard. That, to me, would suggest some depression that needed to be dealt with by a professional. Most people have all kinds of things they wish they could do but don't. People who truly don't want to do anything. . . that is much harder, sure.

 

Thing is, you see life as a scoreboard, as though there are winners and losers, successes and failures, and there kind of are, but it's a limited view. I've failed at actually achieving the end-goal many, many times, or even decided I didn't want that goal anymore, and still found it a valuable, exhilarating, happy journey because the steps were fun.

 

To a degree, you do need to "give up." You need to give up the Pass/Fail mentality. It's why you like school -- because school has these grades and it's easy to see how to get the grade you want. Life isn't like that.

[verhrzn]

You know....sometimes I think humans are designed to fail at stuff. The amount of times I have failed at things in my life is quite vast. Sure, I've been able to get over a lot of my ailments quite quickly, but in all seriousness I have tried and failed pretty hard, even at things I'm good at!

 

This is kinda stupid, but you have to get used to failing. Success doesn't usually come before failure.

 

Sure, but at what point do you stop trying, and recognize that it's just a waste of your time/energy?

 

I mean, that's WHY I'm being told to give up on dating... because at this point it's nothing but wasted time and energy. But by giving up on it, it also means I'll never succeed. Talk about a double-bind.

 

I dunno. Dating is just miserable. But by giving up on it, I'm pretty sure I'll slip into a state of apathy in which I spend every night alone, just staring at a blank wall for hours on end, for the rest of my life.

[xxoo]

On another thread, you told me you see value in achievement. That is the one you feel good about. Now you are saying you don't enjoy that, either.

 

V, you sound depressed. I've been depressed. One question the drs would ask me, in the process of diagnosis, was "what do you enjoy doing?"....and I couldn't think of anything. Nothing that I was good at....nothing that I wanted to do....nothing that I enjoyed.

 

When I am not depressed, the whole world is brighter. There is hope, and sunshine, and life to be lived. I can see that I have many gifts and strengths, and a lot to offer (although I fail a lot, too!).

 

One more thing--I was in and out of depression in the first few years of my relationship. Being in a relationship didn't cure me. I had to do that work myself.

[ThaWholigan]

Reminds me of an astrological aspect in my birthchart: Mercury square Saturn. Mercury represents communication, intellect, intelligence and speech. Whereas Saturn represents fear, discipline, and generally associated with things being hard. When the planets are square, the friction creates a disconnect between these two elements in oneself.

 

It can lead to a limited way of looking at things, looking at the world. And academia is one of the ways it manages to satiate itself. I doubt V has this aspect or anything, but her plight reminds me of the problems associated with this. I will try to think of ways to offset this, but generally the absolute fear or simple discomfort that is associated with failing seems to far outweigh the hope and the benefits of an eventual success, hence the thinking that we see being expressed here.

 

The PUAs call it being "outcome-dependent". They say if you wanna game a girl, you have to not care about the outcome and "enjoy the process of gaming her". Depending on the result leaves you at the mercy of the outcome, and it becomes much harder to succeed from there.

[verhrzn]

On another thread, you told me you see value in achievement. That is the one you feel good about. Now you are saying you don't enjoy that, either.

 

V, you sound depressed. I've been depressed. One question the drs would ask me, in the process of diagnosis, was "what do you enjoy doing?"....and I couldn't think of anything. Nothing that I was good at....nothing that I wanted to do....nothing that I enjoyed.

 

When I am not depressed, the whole world is brighter. There is hope, and sunshine, and life to be lived. I can see that I have many gifts and strengths, and a lot to offer (although I fail a lot, too!).

 

One more thing--I was in and out of depression in the first few years of my relationship. Being in a relationship didn't cure me. I had to do that work myself.

 

*Shrugs* Depression/negativity or realism. It's always the big question. Am I depressed, and thus unable to see a life worth living, or is my life really not worth living and I'm just aware of it?

 

Either way, I guess that's the consensus. Give up, and lock myself away from the world. Guess I had to accept the inevitability sometime, and it might as well be now.

[xxoo]

*Shrugs* Depression/negativity or realism. It's always the big question. Am I depressed, and thus unable to see a life worth living, or is my life really not worth living and I'm just aware of it?

 

Either way, I guess that's the consensus. Give up, and lock myself away from the world. Guess I had to accept the inevitability sometime, and it might as well be now.

 

No one is saying to lock yourself away and give up.

 

If that is your interpretation of what we are saying, then your perspective is obviously one of negativity, not realism.

[betterdeal]

You're a programmer, iirc. Could be wrong, but please adapt this analogy to suit:

 

Have you never found yourself trying to solve a problem, and 4 hours later, no nearer to the solution than you were to start with, you go for lunch / home / a coffee break and talk to someone about how miserable life is and there's no point to it or some other such nonsense, and then when you look at the code again, the answer is clear as day?

[verhrzn]

No one is saying to lock yourself away and give up.

 

If that is your interpretation of what we are saying, then your perspective is obviously one of negativity, not realism.

 

Well could you please clarify what in the world you ARE suggesting then?? Because all I see are things like "change your life!" "have goals!" "do hobbies!" "stop caring!"

 

What is the difference between "stop caring" and "give up"??

 

 

You're a programmer, iirc. Could be wrong, but please adapt this analogy to suit:

 

Have you never found yourself trying to solve a problem, and 4 hours later, no nearer to the solution than you were to start with, you go for lunch / home / a coffee break and talk to someone about how miserable life is and there's no point to it or some other such nonsense, and then when you look at the code again, the answer is clear as day?

 

Um.... actually no. If I can't figure out a problem, it stays un-figured out until I go get someone else to help me. *Shrugs* Maybe I'm just a freak.

Edited April 12, 2012 by verhrzn

[xxoo]

Well could you please clarify what in the world you ARE suggesting then?? Because all I see are things like "change your life!" "have goals!" "do hobbies!" "stop caring!"

 

What is the difference between "stop caring" and "give up"??

 

You don't have to stop caring. Of course you will still care, and still want a relationship. Just put your focus on other things, and stop overworking the "relationship problem" for a while.

 

betterdeal's example is great. I have many others, from my life and lives of friends and family. Sometimes you have to STOP working on a problem and step back, work on other things for a while, and come back to it with a new perspective.

 

Step number one: see a dr and get evaluated for depression.

[verhrzn]

You don't have to stop caring. Of course you will still care, and still want a relationship. Just put your focus on other things, and stop overworking the "relationship problem" for a while.

 

betterdeal's example is great. I have many others, from my life and lives of friends and family. Sometimes you have to STOP working on a problem and step back, work on other things for a while, and come back to it with a new perspective.

 

Step number one: see a dr and get evaluated for depression.

 

*Sigh* I can't afford therapy.

 

I have lots of hobbies and activities in my life. But nothing makes up for the loneliness or emptiness. But I guess some people just aren't meant for happy things.

[betterdeal]

Um.... actually no. If I can't figure out a problem, it stays un-figured out until I go get someone else to help me. *Shrugs* Maybe I'm just a freak.

 

Join the club. We're all freaks here.

 

The "happens when you least expect it" occurs, I believe, because one is much more natural, less tense and controlled when one is least expecting it. A clear mind makes rapid decisions and actions. It interprets sensory input without prejudice, and we emote and respond in verbal and non-verbal ways much more quickly when we're not stacking our entire self-worth on the outcome, which tends to happen more often when we're not verbalising it in our heads e.g. when we least expect it.

 

Maybe give the having a break thing a go next time you get stuck on something when coding and see if it works for you. Maybe try a few times, to get a reasonable sample set to base your conclusions on. If it works, great. If not, no worries. Move on. Try the same experiment with dating.

 

Just a suggestion.

[betterdeal]

I just injured myself doing an impression of a tea bag. I strained myself.

[tman666]

Doesn't every goal require another person's compliance?

 

No... what about your gym goals? That's one of the great things about the pursuit of strength/fitness related goals. Your failures and successes belong to you, and you alone. While life happens, and being supported by friends and family helps, it's one of the few things that depends entirely on you.

 

Having the mindset that you are dependent on anyone for anything, however, is weak and self-defeating, in my opinion. Don't allow yourself to think this way. Instead, set concrete goals for yourself, and then ruthlessly pursue said goals. You need to adopt the mindset that you WILL reach your goal come hell or high water, even if you have drag yourself, bruised and bloody, across the goal line (so to speak).

[xxoo]

*Sigh* I can't afford therapy.

 

If you don't have your health (mental and physical), you don't have anything at all.

[betterdeal]

Go to some comedy nights. I highly recommend it.

[verhrzn]

No... what about your gym goals? That's one of the great things about the pursuit of strength/fitness related goals. Your failures and successes belong to you, and you alone. While life happens, and being supported by friends and family helps, it's one of the few things that depends entirely on you.

 

Having the mindset that you are dependent on anyone for anything, however, is weak and self-defeating, in my opinion. Don't allow yourself to think this way. Instead, set concrete goals for yourself, and then ruthlessly pursue said goals. You need to adopt the mindset that you WILL reach your goal come hell or high water, even if you have drag yourself, bruised and bloody, across the goal line (so to speak).

 

Gee, that sounds.... fun?

 

I asked this before, but... at one point in "reaching a goal" do you recognize that is it not possible, and that you're just wasting time and energy?

 

For example, I've given up on my Paleo and gym thing, because it wasn't doing anything. I was putting all of this energy and time into something that wasn't benefiting me, and was majorly stressing me out. I've just accepted that my body is fat. I think continuing to try to be skinny would have just eventually killed me. Some things in life just aren't achievable (apparently dating is that for me as well), so what point do you figure that out and just... let go?