wilsonx Posted April 12, 2012 Posted April 12, 2012 @hellodearest? What do you mean with your question @coffeeadict, you're comparing apples and oranges, he has the same opportunity that she does to go out and rebound, sleep with others date others. He might not come back in the future. At the same time, She's no ones property and can do whatever she chooses to do when she wants to do it. Love is emotional, not logical. If you love someone, you let them go, you don't give them ultimatums and if they come back after time, then it was meant to be.
Author hellodearest Posted April 12, 2012 Author Posted April 12, 2012 (edited) IF she is telling me that I'm the one - then why is it she lacks "romantic" love for me? And why is she looking for it by seeing someone else? To a certain extent, I guess I understand. She wants to see if being in another relationship will make her feel what she doesn't feel with me. She's doing it so if she comes back to me, she can come back without any doubt left in her head that I'm the one. At least, I think that's what it means. From the original post, Wilsonx, would you please do me the favor of interpreting her actions? Or am I correct? I guess what I'm trying to dispel as well is the notion that she's doing it for "fun". As far as physical intimacy (cuddling, massages, sex, etc.) we have more than I thought was possible in a relationship. What she's doing is based purely on emotion, and I'm trying to figure out the basis of her actions. Edited April 12, 2012 by hellodearest
coffeeaddict Posted April 12, 2012 Posted April 12, 2012 Well, that's all I'm saying Wilson. That he shouldn't have to put his life on hold while she does her thing with other guys, he should move on as well. As far as not giving ultimatums to people you love, saying "Choose between me or the other person" and then abiding by their choice seems pretty fair to me. "She's no ones property" He's no ones property either. 1
Eddie Edirol Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 IF she is telling me that I'm the one - then why is it she lacks "romantic" love for me? And why is she looking for it by seeing someone else? I guess what I'm trying to dispel as well is the notion that she's doing it for "fun". As far as physical intimacy (cuddling, massages, sex, etc.) we have more than I thought was possible in a relationship. What she's doing is based purely on emotion, and I'm trying to figure out the basis of her actions. What she is doing IS based on pure emotions. She doesnt feel any for you. You didnt excite her anymore. You bored her, thats why she thought of you more like a friend than a lover. She didnt have to work for your heart, you handed it over and gave her no challenge. Theres a ton of other things you didnt do to keep her interested, but you'll have to do your research on that. Heres the reality, as this is the same way it has happened time and time again on this board. She has no intention of getting back with you. She probably knows that eventually you will give up on her, and she will be able to move on with her life guilt free. So when she tells you there might be a chance down the linem, shes lying. She probably thinkls that she will be in a committed relationship with a new guy of her dreams, which she might think is the guy shes dating now. She tells you what you want to hear to break it off with you slowly. Its happened to pretty much all of the guys on here. Makes you angry right? One ex I had hung onto me 5 months after she broke it off with me, while she was with her new guy, and didnt delete me from facebook until she got engaged. So you have to assume she has no intention of wanting to try again with you, and that she will never come looking for you. Heres the real bottom line. You don t want her anyway. if she comes looking for you, its not because she thinks youre the one, its because she got dumped by the last guy and doesnt want to be alone. If you get back with her then, you will get broken hearted again, and the 2nd time will be worse. So your best bet is to forget about her. Carry that anger you have for her, and let it make you keep her away. And whatever you do, dont answer any texts, or calls, or emails, or letters. 2
Author hellodearest Posted April 13, 2012 Author Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) I'm getting two very different responses here. That's why I'm so confused, though I believe that it falls somewhere in the middle. The thing about the new guy. I know it's not going to work. She knows it's not going to work. She's even admitted, "Could've been anyone, I'm just excited by something new." I'm actually glad it's the guy that it is, because, well, better off with a guy that's not going to work! Yes. I probably made things boring. I've been way too nice to her, and I've been her rock, but I've done that for my own reasons (she needed me, when I met her, she was suicidal, she's said multiple times, I've saved her by coming into her life.) She wouldn't tell me what "I want to hear". She has always been very truthful, and this isn't the first time her "romantic" love issue has surfaced. That's also how I know it's not the other guy. If we hadn't broken up because of our issues, he wouldn't be in the picture. She knows, on paper, I'm the best guy for her, she just lacks "romantic" love for me. But she doesn't just lack it for me, she hasn't had "romantic" love for ANYONE ever in her life, including previous sweethearts. Just a few days ago, WHILE we were breaking up, she confessed to looking up baby names, day dreaming about 6 years down the road when are settled down. Even when I told her to choose, she chose me first, but then, regressed because she could not make a decision without feeling "romantic" love for me, and had to wait so that she would know for sure. She also chose it because she didn't ever want to hurt me again in the same capacity. Thus, the space. And that's how I know it's not about some stupid physical attraction, she's questioning her deep emotions. This is also why I feel like if I stay on her backburner, then I'm a door mat once again, the whole reason for the mess. Here's a quick response of what I thought about sending her, in reply to her letter. I still don't know about it, and want your opinions. I'm in no hurry to send it. The purpose of the response would let her know the gravity of her choice, she can't go out do whatever she wants and expect me waiting. It also shows that I CAN get angry at her. She's done all this and though I've expressed my unhappiness, I haven't ever shown anger for I wasn't ever angry, until now. "E---- I had every intention of contacting you in a year to catch up on our lives, as friends, or otherwise. However. This note you've slipped under my door has left me pacing in my apartment, growing angrier with each step until I'm pounding the floorboards with the soles of my feet. You've doled out karma to the poor snoring man downstairs. You've missed a few metaphors in your book and if you're placing yourself in Naoko's shoes, then you've overlooked that Naoko's predicament was perpetuated by outside forces. You've cut the ties and you're asking me not to pull on the threads? I don't know everything about love, but I know two things: 1. You don't grow closer to one man by jumping to another. 2. There is a difference between love and blind devotion. Only one is inexhaustible. One of us had loved the other more perfectly, had watched the other more closely, and one of us listened and the other hadn’t, and one of us held on to the ambition of the one idea far longer than was reasonable, whereas the other, passing a garbage can one night, had casually thrown it away. With the last of an exhausted resource in an empty quarry, I wish you the best. Edited April 13, 2012 by hellodearest
Eddie Edirol Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 No, dont send that to her, she doesnt care. She is with someone new and she is trying to sort out her emotions. If you want to get things off your chest, write down everything you feel in a thread in the coping forum, but never write it to her. I know you want to believe her, but people lie when they are trying to break it off with you, to dissuede you from trying to work on things, and to keep them from feeling guilty of hurting you by telling you the real truth. I dont buy the bit about her never being emotional about anybody in her life, I dont buy it at all. I think if she was suicidal when you met her, it was ultimately because a guy she was in love with dumped her and she couldnt handle it, unless it was because of losing a close relative. That means you were a rebound. She used you to get better, but never had any intention of falling for you, and probably wasnt attracted to you enough to do so. If she wasnt attracted to you enough to fall for you now, she wont be in the future, you arent her type. On paper doesnt mean anything, excitement means everything first. She has to feel that spark. She didnt feel that spark for you because I think she was getting over someone else. But of course, she wont tell you that. She is looking for that spark now, and she isnt going to stop looking for that spark, as long as it isnt you. 2
Author hellodearest Posted April 13, 2012 Author Posted April 13, 2012 She has had depression for years, since she was 17. A few days out of each month she would be incapacitated from sadness and would stay in bed the whole time. She's now on SSRI's, which makes me wonder if that's keeping her from feeling "romantic" love. I'm not banking on that answer though. Eddie, you have good intuition! She was completely emotionally unavailable when I met her, so I think that's why we skipped over the spark stage. She slept over at my house one night, and then a couple weeks after, she was sleeping at my house every single night. Yes, she was hung up on a guy, they dated for only a month, and she met me a few months later. We battled this part of her psyche together, and a few months ago, after I had stopped thinking about it (we had actually moved to a new city together) she mentioned that she just realized that she was 100 percent over him. I have questioned her about it, and I think she would've been honest with me. I've asked her if she felt romantic love for that guy, or any previous guys in her life. She said she hasn't, and though has loved me more than any of the other guys she's been involved with, she STILL lacks "romantic" love for me. She's finally over her depression due to the SSRI's and I just want her to give us a chance since it's only been a few months, but I have no idea how to let her catch that spark back. She misses me intensely, and since the breakup until a day ago, had been intent on hanging out as often as possible and calling me throughout the day. It wasn't until I found out about the other guy that we were like, OK, we HAVE to stop hanging out, because if we do, we'll just end up sleeping together and this will get more and more messy. During the breakup, we decided on waiting a year to see each other, once she's figured herself out. She said she wanted to wait ONE month (right after she meets up with the guy) and I said no, I'm not going to just wait until you sleep with him, then start hanging out with you again. She then said, ok, we don't hang out this summer or talk, and then we'll catch up again. I said no to that as well, and said I either I wanted to wait at least a year, OR she stop talking to that guy and we try to sort ourselves out together. I wish she didn't pick the year. How do I re capture "the spark" with someone who knows me so incredibly well? We've literally have no secrets from each other.
Eddie Edirol Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 She has had depression for years, since she was 17. A few days out of each month she would be incapacitated from sadness and would stay in bed the whole time. She's now on SSRI's, which makes me wonder if that's keeping her from feeling "romantic" love. I'm not banking on that answer though. Eddie, you have good intuition! She was completely emotionally unavailable when I met her, so I think that's why we skipped over the spark stage. She slept over at my house one night, and then a couple weeks after, she was sleeping at my house every single night. Yes, she was hung up on a guy, they dated for only a month, and she met me a few months later. We battled this part of her psyche together, and a few months ago, after I had stopped thinking about it (we had actually moved to a new city together) she mentioned that she just realized that she was 100 percent over him. I have questioned her about it, and I think she would've been honest with me. I've asked her if she felt romantic love for that guy, or any previous guys in her life. She said she hasn't, and though has loved me more than any of the other guys she's been involved with, she STILL lacks "romantic" love for me. She's finally over her depression due to the SSRI's and I just want her to give us a chance since it's only been a few months, but I have no idea how to let her catch that spark back. She misses me intensely, and since the breakup until a day ago, had been intent on hanging out as often as possible and calling me throughout the day. It wasn't until I found out about the other guy that we were like, OK, we HAVE to stop hanging out, because if we do, we'll just end up sleeping together and this will get more and more messy. During the breakup, we decided on waiting a year to see each other, once she's figured herself out. She said she wanted to wait ONE month (right after she meets up with the guy) and I said no, I'm not going to just wait until you sleep with him, then start hanging out with you again. She then said, ok, we don't hang out this summer or talk, and then we'll catch up again. I said no to that as well, and said I either I wanted to wait at least a year, OR she stop talking to that guy and we try to sort ourselves out together. I wish she didn't pick the year. How do I re capture "the spark" with someone who knows me so incredibly well? We've literally have no secrets from each other. Youre still intent on falling for every word of a person that left you for someone else and had no romantic feelings for you ever? See heres the issue, she knows that if she told you then that she wasnt 100% over him, you'd bail, and she'd have to deal with being alone, so if her agenda is to not be alone, why would she tell you the truth? Right now, she is probably looking for a guy like the one that broke her heart. You cant make her get that spark without drastic measures. Such as totally changing yourself or letting her see you with another woman. If she is "cured" of her depression due to the SSRI's, she should feel that spark for you now, after coming out of the fog. But when she came out of the fog, she realized that you arent her type. If you want to try to become a guy that can excite her just by the way you talk, then you will have to look up Pick Up Artist methods and practice on alot of women before you come back to her.
Trimmer Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 (edited) She's telling you, you're the one, let me go out and have fun so i dont cheat on you and breqk up with you 10 years down the road when we have kids and are married. I think wilson makes some good points, and I think it's important to hear some balancing counterpoints to the rest of us chanting "be angry, forget her..." And indeed, I'm not convinced that fostering your anger about your Ex, or the situation in general, is even the most positive use of your energy, as again, it keeps you tied to what is now behind you, and I think you are best served by both looking and moving forward. Having complemented wilson's points, though, I want to propose an opposing perspective. Wilson says "She's telling you, you're the one..." and that her behaviors are a reflection, in a sense, of her wisdom to go out and get her ya-ya's out before she settles down with you (my paraphrase, I admit....) The opposing perspective is not original to me, but let's consider whether what she is telling you is "You're not the one..." She's told you she doesn't feel romantic feelings for you, and wants to go out and see if she can find those with someone else, am I getting that right? That sounds to me more like you're not the one, and in her vision, the external fantasy guy is - maybe not the current guy, but someone else who will stir those romantic sparks. So I can't help but interpret both her words and her actions : she's telling you you're not the one, and she's breaking away from you to try to find what she doesn't feel with you. You can try to spin it another way, but in the end, isn't this what it comes down to? IF she is telling me that I'm the one - then why is it she lacks "romantic" love for me? And why is she looking for it by seeing someone else? That's why I think she's not telling you "you're the one." Her words: "she lacks "romantic" love for me"; her actions: "she looking for it by seeing someone else." So often people's words and actions give cross indications and create great confusion and anguish as a result. When they line up like this, don't you have to kinda pay attention? To a certain extent, I guess I understand. She wants to see if being in another relationship will make her feel what she doesn't feel with me. Yes, it seems like it. She's doing it so if she comes back to me, she can come back without any doubt left in her head that I'm the one. Here's where I'm a little uncertain still. Maybe I'm looking at it too logically, but here's my take: Outcome A: She finds sparky romance "out there" somewhere. Romance that she didn't find with you. It doesn't seem that she will be motivated to return to you, would she? Outcome B: She fails to find sparky romance out there. So she returns to you, what, excited at this discovery? Or bummed out that this is as good as it gets and she might as well stick with you because "better" isn't out there? Someone give me another spin please, if you can, because neither of those would sound all that good to me, if I were in your shoes... So now, I'm going to spend a couple paragraphs doing something, and after that, I'm going to sternly advise you NOT to do that any more... I'm gong to "look back: and suggest an interpretation of the role you may have played in each other's life. And this addresses this whole thing about her not feeling romance with you... I wonder if you fulfilled a role in her life of a savior (or just "saver" - I don't mean to make it sound religious...) You came along when she was unstable, and as a result of your relationship together, she found stability, sanity, uplifted from her depression... Sure, a lot of that is the SSRI's talking, but you represent the salvation, the coming out of the dark. But here's the thing - that makes you a rock, an anchor, dependable, strong, all that stuff. But it also doesn't make you "sparky" and romantic. It makes you beloved - no doubt - but you're the solid one, the trustworthy helper. Frankly, like the best friend, or the (god forbid) brother. And it just seems like none of that is conducive to switching roles into the new, sparky, romantic dynamic that she's going out in search of now. It's time for her to try on her new life, to see if she can find what she's been missing in the haze. Your role is to be the anchor, the rock to which she returns if things get stormy, or if there's just no wind at all. Can that change? I don't know. Will it change if she goes out looking for what she's not finding with you? See Outcomes A and B above, and see if anyone offers a credible Outcome C... I just don't know. But enough of that, because now comes that stern admonition: I'm getting two very different responses here. That's why I'm so confused, though I believe that it falls somewhere in the middle. And that's why I recommend you look forward, move forward. Note that all of your current confusion and anguish is caused by looking back. (Since she has moved on, I consider your Ex, for the moment, a part of your past, and therefore, the energy you spend analyzing what she is doing, her motivations for her choice to leave you, etc. is "looking back.) Where is all of this analysis of her motivations, her choices, her actions, her words, her meanings, her behaviors - where is it getting you? It is an anchor keeping you held back, but there's a breeze blowing that you can catch if you let go, put your hand on the tiller and keep a watch out the bow. (Note, I've now progressed from the automobile metaphor to boating. Still a vehicle, I guess, but gotta freshen it up somehow, every once in a while...) So spend your energy building, moving forward. I don't think it's worth spinning up your anger to protect yourself; protect yourself by building toward and fully engaging in your path forward. Folks can argue with me, but I don't believe it's worth trying to craft a response to her, because what is that, but an attempt to affect her: to influence what she thinks, to set her expectations for what to expect from you, etc. She's on her path now; let that happen, and let it go. Spend your energy on you. Edited April 13, 2012 by Trimmer 1
Author hellodearest Posted April 13, 2012 Author Posted April 13, 2012 You're absolutely right. I need to stop trying to read her actions and just accept it. Also. Yes, she said she was afraid she thought of me as more of a best friend. I don't know how we had such sexual chemistry and affection then. That's what confuses me. In the end. It doesn't matter, I just have to look to the future. If I were to meet up with her much later down the road, since she knows me so well, and already has pre conceived notions about me, is there any way to develop a spark? My option C is this: She dates other guy, may or may not feel a spark, but the relationship ends because she realizes he's not right (inevitable, small chance of HIM being the one for her anyway - this is an honest to god rebound) Then she calls me to hang out, without expectations. And then since time has passed, we start a new relationship - which gives me a chance to be a romantic interest instead of being an anchor. She already knows that I am reliable etc, so I don't have to display those qualities. (Unfortunately, I can't be MORE spontaneous or MORE sexual. I am already those two things.) I'm gonna move on, but I still have that small hope of taking a car or boat or whatever vehicle back into her heart, if the situation or time arises.
Eddie Edirol Posted April 13, 2012 Posted April 13, 2012 In the end. It doesn't matter, I just have to look to the future. If I were to meet up with her much later down the road, since she knows me so well, and already has pre conceived notions about me, is there any way to develop a spark? Not unless your personality has changed drastically and you know how to make her think she has to earn your trust and attention. Also, assume if she comes looking for you down the line, that its for friendship only, and not romance, simply because of her pre-conceived notions about you. Also assume she wont tell you that she just needs platonic attention and had no intentions on romance. If that is her agenda at that time, you cant change that.
Author hellodearest Posted April 13, 2012 Author Posted April 13, 2012 I guess what I'm hoping for also is a variation of B. Yeah, she goes out there, and is disappointed that "sparky" romance isn't there, but her genuine deep love for me still exists and when doubt is removed, she is able to let that grow instead of having constant nagging doubts that "something" is missing. I mean, honestly, we woke up content and went to bed content, it wasn't until we start talking ourselves into this stupid frenzy that she thinks that she's unhappy. It's like JSF's quote "I think and I think and I think myself out of happiness a million times but never once into it." Today is day 3 NC, and boy, today is much harder than yesterday. I've already woken up a few times last night from night sweats and once during my nap after class. Panicky feeling ensuing - particularly when I think about the injustice of her sleeping with another guy while expecting me to wait around. Thanks again Trimmer for your insight. You're mighty wise. I just have to stick with your advice in trying to move forward because all this looking back is just making it worse.
Author hellodearest Posted April 13, 2012 Author Posted April 13, 2012 Was chatting with a friend on facebook who I told about the note she left me with the Murazaki quote... I have her blocked on facebook so I didn't see it, but she just posted the same quote on her wall two hours ago. Doesn't really mean much, except she's still thinking about me.
Chi townD Posted April 14, 2012 Posted April 14, 2012 there's a famous quote from an Unknown: "Love is giving someone the power to destroy you, but trusting that they won't" I bet you feel pretty destroyed, so it only tells me that she didn't love you as much as you loved her. She has NO RIGHT to play the field and ask you to be waiting on the sidelines for her. If I wasn't such a big advocate of NC, I would have sent the quote I have. HOWEVER!!!! Your silence speaks more than any letter or any quote could ever do. It leaves her guessing. She doesn't know how you feel, doesn't know where your heads at. Doesn't know if you hate her. Doesn't know if your really care. Yeah, stay NC.
Author hellodearest Posted April 14, 2012 Author Posted April 14, 2012 (edited) I'm fully planning on staying NC. Trimmer said it best, and I think all of you agree, one can't convince another to love them. She is usually pretty down to earth (despite being lost, and confused) and I guess has been looking into seeing a psychic while she's back home. I'm just at a loss of words... So. She must be VERY confused about what she wants. I can't help make her decision for her (but i guess a psychic!!? can provide some input) You couldn't write this story if you tried. Edited April 14, 2012 by hellodearest 1
Author hellodearest Posted April 14, 2012 Author Posted April 14, 2012 (edited) So I went out last night to have a quick drink with a buddy. She lives 45 minutes away, and the bar was near her work. I park, and while walking, we stop at an intersection because a car was coming. Turned out to be her car. I froze for a second because I knew it was her car, her windows are tinted and I think she stopped for a second too. Then turned the corner. What the hell are the chances. Ugh. I'm not sure if she saw me for sure, but either way, was weird. Kind of jump started my emotions again because of the way my body froze up, and I had to stop talking for a few minutes with my buddy to regain composure. THEN We couldn't decide which bars to go to, and so we just hit up two random ones which were pretty laid back and mediocre. The second bar we wander into we run into a girl that my ex is going out with tonight. Weird coincidences in a big city. This is day 4 NC. It gets harder and harder as I realize that she's going to spend this next two weeks talking to and anticipating meeting up with this guy, and when they DO meet it IS going to be fireworks because it's all built up. I'm holding out on the hope it's anticlimactic. I'm starting to be resigned that in order for there to be progress, the initial excitement with this new guy has to die down, i.e. a lot of time has to pass. Edited April 14, 2012 by hellodearest
Author hellodearest Posted April 15, 2012 Author Posted April 15, 2012 Tonight has been hard. I'm resigning not to see her again.
Trimmer Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 Keep taking it a little bit at a time. And start looking for moments of sunshine. They may be fleeting at first - just an inkling that things will get better, a moment of confidence, whatever. It may come and go quickly, but what I found is that occasionally I would get these brief moments when I could see a good future. And gradually over time, there were more of them, and they happened more often, until they kind of built into the dominant attitude, instead of the miserable, hang-dog, down feeling. I remember one morning just seeing a sunrise out the window and feeling good about it for a few minutes, like it was a glimpse of a future with possibilities... Watch for those moments, notice them, because tehy will act as examples of how you can feel - how you will feel - as you get farther along. Take little mental snapshots when they come along, and this will help you act as your own role model. Are you doing some things with your time? Are you a gym rat (or wanted to try being one?) It was good to hear you were out last night with a friend, even though you had "the run-in"... Don't just sit around brooding, OK? Also, your friend who reported about your Ex to you on Facebook... I know that you brought up the Murakami quote, and this started the conversation that led to the reports about what she had posted, so I'm not ragging on your friend for sticking that in your face. However, if possible, I suggest you let your friends know - gently, of course - that it doesn't help you to get reports about things she is doing, saying, or anything like that. Such information can act as a trigger, just as much as seeing her car. It's not that you shouldn't talk about how you are feeling - to the contrary, I'm glad you have friends you can talk about it with. Just try to let them know, gently, that you prefer not to get any kind of status updates about her... (And then, sure as heck, be sure you don't ask for any, either! )
Author hellodearest Posted April 15, 2012 Author Posted April 15, 2012 (edited) I know this is all good advice. Thank you for the bit about holding onto positive things - there certainly are bits of my day where I am happy. Now: I'm going to say something that completely contradicts what I know, and it will probably set me back a lot, but I'm strong. I don't want to do nothing - I feel like prior to her journey back home, if she see me and all the emotions come rushing back of her missing me, she can at least hold onto that memory when she sees him so that she can compare the two of us in her mind. She was already leaning towards me, she just couldn't decide without knowing for sure. She still won't know for sure if she sees me, but at least I'll be on her mind while she's at home. I am thinking about asking her out for a quick drink in a week - it'll be 4 or 5 days before she goes home. I know she's missing the hell out of me, so if anything there will be a flood of emotion to compare to her emotions when she gets home, I feel like I'll have a bigger presence on her mind when she meets the other guy. I also don't want her feelings of loneliness to be relieved by him. What do you guys think? I'm not worried about myself, the setback will be there, but I'll persevere - the whole point of this: what will have the greatest impact on HER. Edited April 15, 2012 by hellodearest
Trimmer Posted April 15, 2012 Posted April 15, 2012 (edited) I am thinking about asking her out for a quick drink in a week - it'll be 4 or 5 days before she goes home. I know she's missing the hell out of me, so if anything there will be a flood of emotion to compare to her emotions when she gets home, I feel like I'll have a bigger presence on her mind when she meets the other guy. I also don't want her feelings of loneliness to be relieved by him. What do you guys think? I'm going to put this gently: I'm not a big fan of this plan. (In my head, it came out sounding more shouting-like, and with some swear words inserted...) First of all, let me remind you about this text you were planning to send her: This is the text I'm thinking about sending her. E---, I know I spent a long time fighting for you yesterday. I knew then, and know now that in order for you to find yourself, this space is necessary. I blocked you on facebook because I know that seeing each other will be painful. Take care. Do you recall how glad you were that you didn't send that? And now, I'm going to sling your own words right back at you: I'm fully planning on staying NC.... I think all of you agree, one can't convince another to love them. OK, so I know you said this plan goes against what you already know, so I realize I'm not telling you anything new so far. But I want you to consider something important here: you are projecting your emotions on to her. You are basing this all on the idea that she "misses" you - because you miss her - and you want to jack that up a little bit, right? And maybe she even said something along those lines, somewhere along the way, I don't recall. But here's the deal: I don't think she misses you, not really. I think it's just the opposite: I think she was feeling stifled by you, and needed to get away. Now, I'm not saying she's not feeling bad, and feeling something negative or missing in the situation, but I think a better description would be that she feels afraid of losing you - her anchor - in the long run, of losing that safe haven to run back to if - * * IF * * - her new adventure doesn't work out. But here's an important point to remember: she's not so afraid that it wasn't worth breaking up with you to go out and seek that adventure. In summary, I think she doesn't "miss you" in the way you think she does, and the thing that does give her pause is the possibility of losing you, as a fallback option. So I think that if you go make contact with her, you won't be making her miss you any more, but you will be reassuring her that you are still waiting around - just like she wanted - enabling her to safely move out into her adventure knowing that, effectively, it's OK with you, and you'll just wait for her, available at her option, as her fallback plan if and when she needs it. I thought your whole point was not to put your stamp of approval on her leaving you to go out and enjoy romantic adventures with other men. Then I see one more level of difficulty; if you do go and have a "quick drink" with her, if you play it cool and have a good time, then what are you going to talk about except "how are things?" You won't be able to dance around that, right? I can't see any way around her telling you what is going on in her life. Now I know you've said that you're OK with a setback, so you're probably just going to suck it up like a good listener, right? And abracadabra! You have turned yourself into her new girlfriend/confidante! Yecch. Do you think that fostering that kind of a dynamic (you taking her out to socialize, and being her trusty girlfriend, while she is persuing other men) is going to enhance her long-term ability to see you in a new, sparky, romantic light, or do you think that's going to mire you even deeper in the anchor/solid rock/friend role? Finally, if you want to avoid that kind of confidante, socializing thing, the other alternative is that you might be tempted to use the time together to reiterate your boundaries and re-state your conditions, etc. But I can't see this being anything other than uncomfortable - possibly either regenerating all those sad feelings, or even some level of hostility, just rehashing the ground you two have already been over, and ending up who knows where... Gee, is that likely to make her miss you more, some time later, when she's hanging out with her new guy who doesn't have any of that baggage attached? In that scenario, you will have created a situation where hanging with the new guy will seem like a relief. So I know you are being all sacrificial, and so on, feeling like this: I'm not worried about myself, the setback will be there, but I'll persevere - the whole point of this: what will have the greatest impact on HER. You are throwing a wrench into a machine that is already moving along, and you don't really understand how it works, so you can't possibly predict what the effect of your actions will be upon her. On the other hand, I think it is reasonable to expect - as you aready intuit - that you will end up coming out battered, in some fashion. I just don't see an overall positive outcome as all that likely. Actually, if you go do it and have a nice, pleasant time - maybe a nice hug or even a kiss at the end - initially you will feel like it went well, (kind of like a junkie feels better after mainlining a slug of heroin) but I think the long term effect is likely to be negative - you will end up home alone, not moving forward, wondering what she is thinking and doing, and you will have tacitly approved and even enabled (by giving her the confidence that her safety net is "still here") her adventure. I'm not worried about myself... what will have the greatest impact on HER. I'm preaching the opposite: the way out of this is to disconnect from trying to affect her - because you won't be able to do that predictably - and do worry about yourself. Don't dive into this shallow pool and just sacrificially accept the broken neck, because I don't think it's going to impress her, while she's sitting up on the deck in a lounge chair in her bikini, enjoying the attention from her new boy. (At least I finally moved away from the vehicle metaphors...) Edited April 15, 2012 by Trimmer 1
Author hellodearest Posted April 16, 2012 Author Posted April 16, 2012 (edited) First of all, Trimmer, you are incredible, and I really appreciate all the time and effort you've spent trying to give me perspective, help, advice, and good honest truth. I feel like I have really great friends, and even my great friends haven't helped me out throughout this situation as much as you have. Thank you for all your support, and it gives me a lot of faith in people that you're willing to reach out and give your time and knowledge and life experience to me. Don't hate me. But after you spent all that time writing out the best advice for the situation, I'm throwing a big old wrench in the works. This morning, she texted me that she was feeling very sad and missed me. Then she tried calling me. I was in the shower and missed both alerts, but called her back afterwards. We talked briefly, and she asked if she could come over. I was actually on my way to a coffee house near her house so I told her I would stop by. I just held her in silence for a long time. We didn't talk about anything for awhile. We kissed a lot. She said she chose me. She doesn't care about the other guy - she realized what she had with him was a grain of sand compared to our relationship. She wasn't willing to throw us away for him - in fact, for the last week they haven't even spoken though he's tried calling her a few times. She said she really was channeling that Murakami book and realized she just had to work on herself. I trust her when she says she won't speak with him/hang out with him while she's at home. Later, after studying, we went and got dinner, and I was going to head home but she asked me to come over for a little bit and hang. We ended up having sex, and then laid around for awhile. THEN. The important part of all this, is that we talked about where we stood, and quite frankly, I'm don't know how to deal with the situation, and neither does she. We both agreed that we had a very deep connection and that we love each other and want to hang out all the time etc. HOWEVER, she still feels like she lacks "romantic love" towards me and that she feels like I'm her best friend who she also enjoys having sex with. We talked about this for a long while, and I don't know how to convey her feelings and neither does she, so I'll try my best. She says that while we were broken up, she missed me like crazy and couldn't stop thinking about me. But as soon as I came over to hang out, she felt relieved, but the same type of connection or feeling wasn't there as soon as she knew I was available. (Want what you can't have...) She feels like there is something missing in the relationship though she is unable to put her finger on it. I feel like maybe I pamper her too much. When we hang out, I am always giving her a back rub or shoulder rub or something while were watching movies etc. It's not just to please her though, I genuinely enjoy doing it, I feel like I have idle hands otherwise. Maybe this is an issue? I'm too giving when were together? She is afraid to lose me because she doesn't know ANY other men who would care for their significant others in the same magnitude or capacity that I care about her. She finds me funny, intelligent, spontaneous, physically attractive, but... doesn't feel romantic. We both don't know how to deal with the situation. We want to be together and don't want to lose what we have because what we have is more than what many people have. But, there's the question, what if we're just plain not perfect for one another. What we decided on was this: For some undetermined time - probably until the end of summer, we are, except in official title, dating. We'll try to take it slow and keep our distance from one another, but we'll hang out a few days a week. We won't see other people while we try to sort ourselves out, and see if feelings for each other grow. After undetermined time, we talk about our relationship and where we stand. What SHE wants, is that if we haven't gotten to a point in the relationship where were both completely committed, she wants to make our relationship into an open relationship. She wants to have flings and go on dates and see other people in order to determine if she can make the same type of connection with them as she does with me. She said although she wants to date other people, she also feels that deep down she won't find someone who can connect with her in the same way that I do. I said that we'll talk about this after undetermined time, though I know that myself will be pretty uncomfortable with that situation. (Plus, it would be way easier for her to score a date... just how the world works.) I guess I have no idea how to facilitate getting her to feel "romantic love" towards me as I ticked it off on my fingers: We get a long great, have great sex, love each other, want to hang out all the time... so... what is missing?? The other thing is that she is on SSRI's, which brings down the dopamine circuit in the brain, which leads to romantic love. I've asked her to cut down on her SSRI dose as long as she feels comfortable, and if at any point she starts feeling down or depressed again, to return to her normal dose. I'm not a doctor (yet) so I'm not sure if I should be ****ing around with her medication. I did tell her though, that I would rather she was happy without me, than sad with me. She's willing to work on it, I'm willing to work on it, neither of us know how to help her find "romantic love". Edited April 16, 2012 by hellodearest
Trimmer Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 Oh god, I knew it - I knew you were going to have sex! You know above, where I said "Actually, if you go do it and have a nice, pleasant time - maybe a nice hug or even a kiss at the end ..." When I wrote that, I had written something about "hey, at least maybe you'll get lucky and get laid..." but I edited that out... So look, I don't hate you. And for all the advice I've given you, I'm not one of those who thinks I'm absolutely right and I'm going to go all "tough-love" on you and berate you for not doing what I say. Part of the human adventure is figuring out a lot of it on your own. Sometimes you will make mistakes, and sometimes you will make it work, even in the face of conflicting advice. So take what you get on here and filter it as you see fit; use it if you want. You don't need to make excuses. Now, having said all of that, a couple of notes... The important part of all this, is that we talked about where we stood, and quite frankly, I'm don't know how to deal with the situation, and neither does she. I know basically what you mean - you are going to have to come to a common understanding - but I think things aren't as balanced as you are stating them. It seems to me that you know what you want: correct me if I'm missing the point here, but you want a monogamous, committed, romantic relationship with her. She is the one who doesn't know how to deal with the situation; she is the one who is confused, and is stirring the pot as a result. I know that, in a sense, you are "in it together" to figure things out, but your vision of the relationship is pretty clear; it's her vision that is confused and muddy. I think that shifts the burden mostly to her to get things cleared up and figured out. Don't bear too much of the burden of trying to figure her out or fix her. This is her journey, and her burden. She really owes you a clear description of what she's asking for. And that puts you in a position where you might want to think about boundaries: what will you accept? What is OK with you and what is not? You actually started out pretty well in this regard - when she originally came to you with the whole dilemma, you said - no, I'm not OK with that, so either stay with me (only) or go and figure yourself out. So now, you're kinda, sorta back in a situation where she's with you (and you only, we assume) and she's kinda, sorta respected that boundary and is kinda, sorta willing to live within it as a condition of being with you. The "kinda, sorta" qualifiers come from this sword of Damocles you will have hanging over your head - this looming conversation to be had at some indeterminate later time. If this were a political cartoon, I would see a big shadow cast by the two of you onto a wall; it would have the shape of that other guy - the sparky, romantic one - and it would be labeled "the conversation." I'm concerned that both of you have given in to another hit of the drug that stops the withdrawl symptoms - the sadness and missing each other - and you've decided to keep taking the drug while you've postponed actually dealing with the core issue (her core issue) until some later time (an undetermined later time). It feels a lot better having the drug in your system, but is the problem really getting solved? Has the big hurt, the big decision, "the conversation", just been postponed until later? Also, I don't particularly like how this whole thing has turned out to put you in the position, essentially, of being tested. Here's how it has ended up: she's got some issues that she really needs to figure out and come back to you and tell you what she wants out of your relationship - what she's willing to give, what she needs, her boundaries, her vision in general. But instead of taking the time to figure that out and communicate it to you clearly, you are going back to the status quo, you have to figure out how to morph yourself and the relationship to meet her needs, and at some later time, she will judge whether you have magically met her ill-defined standards. And if you don't, then she's going to ask for an open relationship (which you already know is probably not compatible with your outlook, do I infer correctly.) I don't know. I know the way I'm describing it makes it sound pretty clinical (and not all that nice..) but I want you to think about what you are setting up here - the dynamic you will be in, the role you are playing, and what you are willing to accept in order not to miss her. On the open relationship thing, I think it seems clear that you wouldn't really be all that hip on the idea, and I think it is pretty clear from described experiences, that an open relationship doesn't work very well when only one partner wants it to be open, and the other is going along grudgingly. You may want to decide early whether that is a boundary you want to set, and maybe do it early. For example, if you said "An open relationship is off the table - you are either with me only, or you are without me" (Hmm, sounds familiar somehow - oh yeah, that's right!) I wonder what her feeling would be about this "conversation at an undetermined later time". OK, these thoughts are not really too well organized - I'm just going stream-of-consciousness here. But here's my next concern: I trust her when she says she won't speak with him/hang out with him while she's at home. ... or any other time for that matter. Have you decided where your boundary is on this issue? Are they still texting? DOes she think that's OK? Is that OK with you? Do you have a meeting of the minds on this issue? Is she thinking this is a 'sort of' open relationship already? Where are her boundaries and where are yours? If this reconciliation-until-the-conversation-at-an-undetermined-later-time is going to have any chance of working, you guys really need to understand what your boundaries are... Now, while we're on that topic, let's address it directly: What SHE wants, is that if we haven't gotten to a point in the relationship where were both completely committed, she wants to make our relationship into an open relationship. She wants to have flings and go on dates and see other people in order to determine if she can make the same type of connection with them as she does with me. How is that ANY different than what you just went through? Her: "Honey, I want to see other people, but still be with you." You: "That doesn't work for me, go be free and find yourself, but I won't be with you while you are with someone else." 4 days later, Her: "Arrgh! I couldn't be away from you. Let's get back together for now, and then let's do this same conversation again at a later date." The notable differences are that (1) instead of you building your life, and her doing the work to figure out her issues, the burden is now on you to change to meet her vaguely-defined needs, and (2) at the later date if she's still feeling this missing thing, she is expecting you to say "OK, you can go date others and I'll still stay with you." I think it might be worth giving this some real thought and setting your boundary now, if you don't expect you'll be able to do that. I guess I have no idea how to facilitate getting her to feel "romantic love" towards me as I ticked it off on my fingers: We get a long great, have great sex, love each other, want to hang out all the time... so... what is missing?? See? Things just got a lot easier for her, because already you're taking the responsibility to figure out how to fix her issues. She doesn't have to figure it out - she's back in her safe zone, and you're going to be working double-hard trying to "facilitate" her growth. Finally, some thoughts about what she feels is missing: We both agreed that we had a very deep connection and that we love each other and want to hang out all the time etc. HOWEVER, she still feels like she lacks "romantic love" towards me and that she feels like I'm her best friend who she also enjoys having sex with. We talked about this for a long while, and I don't know how to convey her feelings and neither does she, so I'll try my best. She says that while we were broken up, she missed me like crazy and couldn't stop thinking about me. But as soon as I came over to hang out, she felt relieved, but the same type of connection or feeling wasn't there as soon as she knew I was available. (Want what you can't have...) She feels like there is something missing in the relationship though she is unable to put her finger on it. I feel like maybe I pamper her too much. When we hang out, I am always giving her a back rub or shoulder rub or something while were watching movies etc. It's not just to please her though, I genuinely enjoy doing it, I feel like I have idle hands otherwise. Maybe this is an issue? I'm too giving when were together? She is afraid to lose me because she doesn't know ANY other men who would care for their significant others in the same magnitude or capacity that I care about her. She finds me funny, intelligent, spontaneous, physically attractive, but... doesn't feel romantic. Then what the hell is "romantic"? I have to imagine you are asking yourself that, because I sure am... If she's never felt that "romantic" feeling, then how does she know what is missing? (Kinda like when I say "This tastes like s**t..." and my 14-year old daughter says "How do you know what s**t tastes like?") But really - is she getting her ideas of "romantic" love by imagining herself as Kate Winslet in Titanic, or has she been watching Sex and the City, or Pretty Woman or something? If it's one of those I'll know it when I see it kind of things, how the heck can she have any confidence that "it" really exists? Is she getting her role models and expectations from warped places like movies and TV? Funny, intelligent, spontaneous, physically attractive, sexually compatible.... Is she chasing something that's not out there? She's got 99%, but she's chasing the "perfect soulmate" that Hollywood promises as the music swells at the end of a Ryan Reynolds movie, while those of us in the real world eventually learn that ending up with something between 75 and 90% is doing pretty well in this life. Ah, maybe I'm just jaded. Someone else talk now... 1
Eddie Edirol Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 HelloD, Ive already predicted what happened here, and I dont think she is being completely honest, again. I think she is back with you until she finds someone new. That way, this open relationship idea of hers wont be such a surprise to you next time. Also, she can wean herself off of you with someone new and leave you in the dust, while she goes off into the sunset with the new guy. Thats what her plan is. That way she never has to be by herself. She has no plans on focusing on you. Women know what turns them off when you do it, so if you really want to figure out that she is not honest, you keep talking to her about the things you do that turn her off, things she doesnt like about you. If she says nothing, she's not being honest. She refuses to tell you to keep you from walking away. You really need to walk away from her, she has to be alone, and you have to stop letting her play mind games with you like this.
Chi townD Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 We both agreed that we had a very deep connection and that we love each other and want to hang out all the time etc. HOWEVER, she still feels like she lacks "romantic love" towards me and that she feels like I'm her best friend who she also enjoys having sex with. QUOTE] Translation: HELLO FRIENDS WITH BENEFITS!!!!!! Means, she's gonna kick it with you until she finds someone that she does have a romantic attraction to. Then, you'll be kicked to the curb again. 2
flitzanu Posted April 16, 2012 Posted April 16, 2012 i've missed some pages, but skimming, see (paraphrased) that you "are without title, dating, but we don't want the strain of relationship titles" blah blah. that means she's biding her time and will not commit to you, and that has nothing to do with "her life" and finding herself, it means she doesn't want it. now, i HOPE that you prove me wrong in my statement above. proceed with caution.
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