Why do guys get put into the friendzone?

[betterdeal]

How the heck did you come to that conclusion?

 

I'm not surprised you don't get it.

 

1. Your masculinity is denied when a you want sex with a woman but she declines; ergo

2. Her femininity is denied when a woman wants sex with you but you decline.

 

It's your logic mirrored, with you the villain in the piece rather than the victim.

[thatone]

I'm not surprised you don't get it.

 

1. Your masculinity is denied when a you want sex with a woman but she declines; ergo

2. Her femininity is denied when a woman wants sex with you but you decline.

 

It's your logic mirrored, with you the villain in the piece rather than the victim.

 

i'm not surprised either. it's really not hard to figure out, unless you were to spend a lot of time complaining and projecting rather than time with women, as he has.

[BeyondtheClouds]

I'm not surprised you don't get it.

 

1. Your masculinity is denied when a you want sex with a woman but she declines; ergo

2. Her femininity is denied when a woman wants sex with you but you decline.

 

It's your logic mirrored, with you the villain in the piece rather than the victim.

 

I wouldn't go that far.

 

One problem I see here is that the lines have blurred between the different types of relationships.

[somedude81]

There needs to be some clarification here.

 

This is the original exchange.

This only applies to women I am sexually interested in. If I just want to be friends with a woman, I don't approach her as a man, just a person.

 

And if she wants to have sex with you, you're denying her her femininity. What goes around comes around.

How the heck did you come to that conclusion?

 

---------------

Further detail:

 

I missed what betterdeal meant.

 

I realize now that he means in a situation where I just want to be friends with her and she wants to have sex with me. I'd say that 90% of the time, I'd sleep with her.

 

A woman would have to be pretty gross for me to refuse sex with her and in that situation, I would be denying her femininity, but I wouldn't offer to be her friend. Rejection is fine, but don't sugarcoat it.

[betterdeal]

A woman would have to be pretty gross for me to refuse sex with her and in that situation, I would be denying her femininity, but I wouldn't offer to be her friend. Rejection is fine, but don't sugarcoat it.

 

Here's another concept: women who do say "no" to sex might actually want to be friends with you. I know you don't rate friendship highly anyway, but other people are more comfortable with it, even with people who have had perfectly normal and natural feelings such as feeling turned on by someone.

[BeyondtheClouds]

Here's another concept: women who do say "no" to sex might actually want to be friends with you. I know you don't rate friendship highly anyway, but other people are more comfortable with it, even with people who have had perfectly normal and natural feelings such as feeling turned on by someone.

 

As a guy, I would be careful about that. Some women just like adoring eunuchs around them and will do everything they can to ensure that their male "friend" will never be able to keep a girlfriend.

[somedude81]

Here's another concept: women who do say "no" to sex might actually want to be friends with you. I know you don't rate friendship highly anyway, but other people are more comfortable with it, even with people who have had perfectly normal and natural feelings such as feeling turned on by someone.

Mate, I just got out of a nearly two year long friendship with a girl I was obsessed with.

 

It's not something I want to go through again.

[RedRobin]

As a guy, I would be careful about that. Some women just like adoring eunuchs around them and will do everything they can to ensure that their male "friend" will never be able to keep a girlfriend.

 

Some people have same gender friendships with toxic people too. People who don't want their 'friend' to find happiness or they are constantly seeking to 'out do' them in some way.

 

I call them 'frenemies'. Those people are to be avoided. Whether they are same sex or opposite sex.

[BeyondtheClouds]

Some people have same gender friendships with toxic people too. People who don't want their 'friend' to find happiness or they are constantly seeking to 'out do' them in some way.

 

I call them 'frenemies'. Those people are to be avoided. Whether they are same sex or opposite sex.

 

This is true but it may be harder to see when the person is of the opposite sex. For example, no one would assume that a married woman or a woman with a bf would make it difficult for a guy friend to have a girlfriend. But it does happen.

[dasein]

1. Your masculinity is denied when a you want sex with a woman but she declines; ergo

2. Her femininity is denied when a woman wants sex with you but you decline.

 

It's your logic mirrored, with you the villain in the piece rather than the victim.

 

Well, if men and women were identical in every way, you might have a point. They aren't though. Success in seeking and obtaining sex is a far greater, more important component of the human male psyche than the female, just as success in seeking and obtaining secure resources and offspring is a far greater, more important component of the human female psyche than the male. In that light, the above fails as a meaningful comparison.

[PlumPrincess]

Well, if men and women were identical in every way, you might have a point. They aren't though. Success in seeking and obtaining sex is a far greater, more important component of the human male psyche than the female, just as success in seeking and obtaining secure resources and offspring is a far greater, more important component of the human female psyche than the male. In that light, the above fails as a meaningful comparison.

The way you talk about women and their want to have children makes me believe you would be a lousy dad. "Oh my God, look at these women!!! They want to have children with a guy who is able to protect and provide for his family! Bitches!" If one day you feel a seemingly irresistible romantic urge to marry your girlfriend and start a family, please reconsider.

[fishtaco]

Well, if men and women were identical in every way, you might have a point. They aren't though. Success in seeking and obtaining sex is a far greater, more important component of the human male psyche than the female, just as success in seeking and obtaining secure resources and offspring is a far greater, more important component of the human female psyche than the male. In that light, the above fails as a meaningful comparison.

 

I believe men and women are fairly equal when it comes to "getting their way" during all these dating drama. But I agree with you 100%, what they look for, what they try to secure as the next step, and what it means to them, is vastly different.

 

Men tend to go for sex, women tend to go for commitment. It doesn't mean men won't commit after sex or women won't have sex after commitment, but before both is reached, it becomes a power play. Who wins? The person with the bigger balls.

 

Do you (general you, not you dasein) have big cajones or little pebbles? No, no, don't tell us. Words means nothing. How you date gives it away.

[dasein]

The way you talk about women and their want to have children makes me believe you would be a lousy dad. "Oh my God, look at these women!!! They want to have children with a guy who is able to protect and provide for his family! Bitches!" If one day you feel a seemingly irresistible romantic urge to marry your girlfriend and start a family, please reconsider.

 

Posting a relatively noncontroversial statement about different general motivators in the male and female psyche is not the equivalent of calling women bitches for wanting to have children. Go back and actually read the context of the post of betterdeal's I was replying to and get back to me if you are still ornery about what I posted.

[dasein]

I believe men and women are fairly equal when it comes to "getting their way" during all these dating drama. But I agree with you 100%, what they look for, what they try to secure as the next step, and what it means to them, is vastly different.

 

Men tend to go for sex, women tend to go for commitment. It doesn't mean men won't commit after sex or women won't have sex after commitment, but before both is reached, it becomes a power play. Who wins? The person with the bigger balls.

 

Agree, and said another way, I just don't see a woman's ego tied up in her ability to seek and obtain sex to near the same degree as a man's is, so the mirror logic doesn't work in this instance. Not claiming that a woman who was turned down for sex and offered friendship instead wouldn't feel bad or rejected, but that that rejection wouldn't likely bring the essence of her sexual identity into question in the way it might bring a man's into question.

[somedude81]

Men tend to go for sex, women tend to go for commitment.

Women go for a hell of a lot more than just commitment.

[PlumPrincess]

Posting a relatively noncontroversial statement about different general motivators in the male and female psyche is not the equivalent of calling women bitches for wanting to have children. Go back and actually read the context of the post of betterdeal's I was replying to and get back to me if you are still ornery about what I posted.

This time it was a quite neutral comment, but in general, you do have a pretty callous attitude regarding women and children. You seem to believe that women deserve to get lower salaries when they return to their job after taking time off for their children. Or when you get completely worked up when women are looking for a good provider. Well, if they only get lousy salaries after having children, then maybe it would be a good idea to have a husband who can earn enough for two people! And if you contrast a guy who is controlled by the biological urge to have sex with a woman who wants a good provider to take care of her and her children (who are also his children!), then who do you think is going to win the heart of the people?

[PlumPrincess]

Agree, and said another way, I just don't see a woman's ego tied up in her ability to seek and obtain sex to near the same degree as a man's is, so the mirror logic doesn't work in this instance. Not claiming that a woman who was turned down for sex and offered friendship instead wouldn't feel bad or rejected, but that that rejection wouldn't likely bring the essence of her sexual identity into question in the way it might bring a man's into question.

You mean a woman who gets turned down for sex by a man will not question her sexual identity when the general folk wisdom is that most men are horndogs and would jump at anything that is female and still breathing?

[zengirl]

I think fishtaco's assessment is fine -- women are more likely to seek commitment, and men to seek sex, and of course many men and women want sex AND commitment AND a whole bunch of other things, too, wrapped in a big damn bow. However, the offspring one is just off. I know TONS of women in my generation that don't want to have children (stats bear this out, and many stats suggest men in my generation are slightly more interested in having children than women) so seeking "resources for offspring" is a weird way to put it these days. That analysis might've worked decades ago but definitely not now. Far too many women are told they want kids today, yet in studies, women are continuously saying that less and less. Time to get with the program.

 

As to denying someone's masculinity (or femininity) via denying sex, here's why it makes no sense to me:

 

Most people, male and female, don't seek to sleep with everyone of the opposite sex. Most people don't have any problem identifying the gender of children or their relatives or a whole host of people that it'd be downright taboo to sleep with. Identifying and accepting someone's basic gender and masculinity is not the same as finding them sexually attracted. It's actually really insulting to think that way. . . as though you're "more of a man" to a woman who wants to sleep with you. If that is a component of the male psyche, it's one we put there through broken socialization and we should seek to disprove it and fix it for the good of young men. Their masculinity should not be dependent on their sexual prowess or their height or income or whatever, just as a woman's femininity shouldn't be dependent on silly factors like that.

 

Even if the factors are different, the broken socialization is the same. Phrases like, "Act ladylike" and "Be a man," are all F-ed up. I have seen men on LS complain more than once about phrases like "Man up" and how they're abusive (I agree, frankly) but how is this idea any different than that? A man is a man. It's genetically true. It needs no proving and it cannot be "denied" by acts of circumstance or other's choices or thoughts towards them.

[xxoo]

Mate, I just got out of a nearly two year long friendship with a girl I was obsessed with.

 

It's not something I want to go through again.

 

None of us want you to go through that again.

 

But you adored her, and thought she was wonderful. You said she was honest about not wanting a romantic relationship, and you had fun together. Do you now think that she was selfishly disrespecting you?

 

It isn't about blaming her, or you. The point is that the only way you can avoid going through that again is realizing what choices you made to get in that situation. She couldn't put you in the friendzone, where you willingly pined for her for 2 years. You stepped in there yourself.

 

That acknowledgement isn't blame. It is control. If you accept that, you take control of your life. You stop being the victim.

[betterdeal]

Well, if men and women were identical in every way, you might have a point. They aren't though. Success in seeking and obtaining sex is a far greater, more important component of the human male psyche than the female, just as success in seeking and obtaining secure resources and offspring is a far greater, more important component of the human female psyche than the male. In that light, the above fails as a meaningful comparison.

 

Okay then, besides gender roles not being stuck in the 1950s, and personal taste being more freely accepted these days, and much longer adolescenthood generally, I can vaguely see your sperm is cheap and babies are dear point, so to improve the comparison, change sex to, a stable, safe, secure, plentiful home and it still just doesn't follow that her femininity is denied by him not pleasing the far greater, more important component of the human female psyche as defined by you.

[fishtaco]

I think fishtaco's assessment is fine -- women are more likely to seek commitment, and men to seek sex, and of course many men and women want sex AND commitment AND a whole bunch of other things, too, wrapped in a big damn bow. However, the offspring one is just off. I know TONS of women in my generation that don't want to have children (stats bear this out, and many stats suggest men in my generation are slightly more interested in having children than women) so seeking "resources for offspring" is a weird way to put it these days. That analysis might've worked decades ago but definitely not now. Far too many women are told they want kids today, yet in studies, women are continuously saying that less and less. Time to get with the program.

 

As to denying someone's masculinity (or femininity) via denying sex, here's why it makes no sense to me:

 

Most people, male and female, don't seek to sleep with everyone of the opposite sex. Most people don't have any problem identifying the gender of children or their relatives or a whole host of people that it'd be downright taboo to sleep with. Identifying and accepting someone's basic gender and masculinity is not the same as finding them sexually attracted. It's actually really insulting to think that way. . . as though you're "more of a man" to a woman who wants to sleep with you. If that is a component of the male psyche, it's one we put there through broken socialization and we should seek to disprove it and fix it for the good of young men. Their masculinity should not be dependent on their sexual prowess or their height or income or whatever, just as a woman's femininity shouldn't be dependent on silly factors like that.

 

Even if the factors are different, the broken socialization is the same. Phrases like, "Act ladylike" and "Be a man," are all F-ed up. I have seen men on LS complain more than once about phrases like "Man up" and how they're abusive (I agree, frankly) but how is this idea any different than that? A man is a man. It's genetically true. It needs no proving and it cannot be "denied" by acts of circumstance or other's choices or thoughts towards them.

 

Yes, I agree with you, times are changing. But "resources and offspring" is something that is ingrained in our biology as humans, and it will never go away. It will change with the times, it will manifest itself in different ways, but it will always be there.

 

In fact, every time we make a decision who is attractive, we are exercising these instincts that during the early days of humanity, helped us survive as a species. In fact, for someone like me, who has decided to never have kids, when I see women I find attractive, it is at least partially is due to the fact that my brain tells me that we will create healthy offspring, using the same instincts that my ancestors used, that do not apply to me today, at all.

 

So they may not make much sense today, but we are still affected by them. I wouldn't discount them just because they may not make sense socially in today's world.

 

And to the guys, man up!

 

Sorry zengirl, not trying to contradict you, but abusive or not, men need to man up. Sink or swim. Better to get whacked over the head repeatedly and eventually learn how to swim than to just sink.

[AD1980]

Of course.

 

If I'm coming to her as a man wanting to sleep with her; her not wanting wanting to sleep with me denies my masculinity.

 

This only applies to women I am sexually interested in. If I just want to be friends with a woman, I don't approach her as a man, just a person.

 

I dont feel my masculinity denied when i get rejected i feel my attractivness level denied

 

It's like damn you really like me as a person but the idea of even making out with me disgusts you so much which hurts the most

[zengirl]

Yes, I agree with you, times are changing. But "resources and offspring" is something that is ingrained in our biology as humans, and it will never go away. It will change with the times, it will manifest itself in different ways, but it will always be there.

 

In fact, every time we make a decision who is attractive, we are exercising these instincts that during the early days of humanity, helped us survive as a species. In fact, for someone like me, who has decided to never have kids, when I see women I find attractive, it is at least partially is due to the fact that my brain tells me that we will create healthy offspring, using the same instincts that my ancestors used, that do not apply to me today, at all.

 

So they may not make much sense today, but we are still affected by them. I wouldn't discount them just because they may not make sense socially in today's world.

 

I don't know. I've seen very little to prove evolutionary-minded psychology where such assertions seem to come from. It seems to me that such conditions are more socialized than anything else. Statistically, there seems to be an impasse, with little conclusive data either way. Additionally, our genes ARE continually changing and evolving -- not massively, since we evolve mostly culturally, but some.

[betterdeal]

Mate, I just got out of a nearly two year long friendship with a girl I was obsessed with.

 

It's not something I want to go through again.

 

Sure, I fully understand, but the way you frame these things and see them doesn't help you enjoy your life. You liked her, had a softspot for her and were respectful of her wishes too. Nothing wrong there. You must have gained something out of the process or you would have ended it sooner. Many men are, at some stage, a simpering fool for a girl. It's all part of life. It sucks, but better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all.

 

Honestly, it's not how you fall, it's how you land that matters.

[dasein]

You seem to believe that women deserve to get lower salaries when they return to their job after taking time off for their children.

 

Yes, they DO deserve to get lower salaries than the people who hung around, male or female, and gained valuable experience. Just like a guy who leaves work to go climb the Himalayas or follow Widespread Panic also deserves less. It's not -our- job as taxpayers to subsidize -your- choices as a parent regardless of the sunshine the pols blow up people's tails in the process of buying votes.

 

Well, if they only get lousy salaries after having children, then maybe it would be a good idea to have a husband who can earn enough for two people!

 

No problem there, provided it's not in an environment where women take education spots, jobs and advancement away from male candidates via discriminatory persisting affirmative action, and then bemoan "where are all the good men making good $$ now that princess is ready to drop all the stuff she got via affirmative action and be a housewife?" Pffft.

 

Rest of the post is ??