Why do guys get put into the friendzone?

[wwwjd]

How can you possibly know if someone is "Interested" before you have gotten to know them over a month or two? You don't know if you are interested in them either. Okay, they look cute or "attract" your eye but that is such a small part of FULL attraction.

 

Do people mean "Interested" as in Inerested in sex right out of the gate?

 

I know sex is generally based on primal animalism, but there IS more at play here. Ideals, common interests, outlook on life, goals.... all of this can make someone more attractive PHYSICALLY, LATER in the association or friendship.

[Content]

It's mostly about looks and lack of attraction if a women likes your personality enough to want to be friends but wants nothign to do with you romantically it means shes not attracted to you physically it has notihng to do with a misstep waiting to long to ask or asking too soon

[zengirl]

It's the same thing, the exact same thing.

 

No, it's not. A lot of people - men and female - on LS seem to do friends-first dating and think it means not escalating physicality early (which IMO is easily done in regular dating by setting boundaries). That is a different thing.

 

Woman uses a medicinal lie, man naively believes her. Sometimes the lie is "I want to be friends first before anything else," sometimes it's "let's just be friends," sometimes it's "I'm not ready for a relationship and what I really need now is a friend."

 

"Let's be friends," does not cause any confusion. That is a direct statement that alludes to no romantic potentials whatsoever. The first one may cause confusion if not sincere (some women, particularly from different cultures, really do that, honestly), and the second one is an easily-seen let down that leaves very little hope of romantic potential. The first, if insincere, would be leading one on, but neither of the others would be and "let's be friends" in particular is succinct and direct. That is a no. An eternal no. Again, this is the same thing as saying a guy who is just "looking for a FWB right now" is leading a girl on into thinking there is commitment. He is not, in that scenario, and the girl is not, in most of these.

 

What a better world the dating world would be if people would master the simple line, "I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in dating you, and this is not going to change." But of course, that would be too easy, and would also make principessa feel bad awwwww, can't have that.

 

I see nothing wrong with saying that (though I never say never -- I don't know what is or isn't going to change absolutely), but the same men who don't hear that line in, "Let's be friends" (which could be added after that, sure) are the ones who would freak out on you if you ever said that. They don't want to hear it.

 

OP doesn't talk about "guys on this board," but asks a general question about a general scenario anyone who has dated has experience with IRL.

 

Which is why I detailed several kinds of FZ situations, including "friends first" dating. I'm talking about the topic itself. We have to acknowledge that these are all different aspects, IMO, if we're going to get anywhere.

 

At any rate, if you're finding yourself continuously anywhere, including the FZ, the place to look is within. You need to change (general you). Because the constant there is the person who's frustrated.

[zengirl]

That's really all there is to it, isn't it?

 

And yet, I find it to be extremely disheartening.

 

Friendzone or no female company?

 

Thank you for illustrating exactly my point in why men CHOOSE this dynamic and are not the victims of it.

 

It's a way for men to avoid the "no."

[Yamaha]

all of this can make someone more attractive PHYSICALLY, LATER in the association or friendship.

 

I agree.

Most people will not take that step b/c the friendship has become comfortable and they don't want to risk loosing the person for good by dating. Sexual interest changes everything!!

[ThaWholigan]

I for one don't think the "friendzone" exist to an extent. If I find myself being friends with a girl, my attraction to them does not intrude on my friendship, as far as I'm concerned. Therefore, it's not a big deal. Sure, my naivety nearly dragged me into such a situation, but luckily I had enough sense to not let it bother me. I also realized that I, in effect, did indeed "friendzone" myself in the one instance that it happened to me with the one girl I had a strong romantic interest in.

 

To this date, I am still on good terms with the girl, although I am not, and never was, around her too frequently. I still consider her a good friend, and the fact that I want to bone her doesn't affect that . She knows I want to bone her anyway, and it doesn't seem to bother her, but thats probably because she's hot and a lot of other guys want to bone her too. Lucky her .

 

I guess the friendzone (if it exists) isn't a daunting place for me personally. If you use the FZ right, you can get access to her friends too .

[xxoo]

That's really all there is to it, isn't it?

 

And yet, I find it to be extremely disheartening.

 

Friendzone or no female company?

 

Except, as you get bolder and more comfortable flirting, more women will probably be attracted to you and say "yes".

[somedude81]

Thank you for illustrating exactly my point in why men CHOOSE this dynamic and are not the victims of it.

 

It's a way for men to avoid the "no."

Avoid the no?

 

But yes, it is chosen, simply because of the dilemma presented.

 

If I'm lonely and wanting female companionship and X girl rejects my offer to date but counteroffers with friendship. I can either walk away and continue to be alone or accept her offer and be able to spend time with her. And then there is the misguided hope of thinking maybe she'll fall for me over time. Until then, I'll have a friend and a pretend girlfriend.

 

If given the chance to make the decision again and to go the other route, to not be her friend and keep my distance from her; I'd make the same choice I made in the past. Except I'd be more aggressive with her and not drag everything out for so long.

 

But that's just for that one girl. For anybody else, I'm not going to accept the friendship offer next time I get it. And I will not keep trying with same girl. One no, and I go.

[somedude81]

Except, as you get bolder and more comfortable flirting, more women will probably be attracted to you and say "yes".

God I hope so.

 

Somehow have to get bolder and more comfortable when I only get a string of rejections.

 

Basically my confidence needs to go up when my self-esteem is continuously being torn down

[fishtaco]

No, it's not. A lot of people - men and female - on LS seem to do friends-first dating and think it means not escalating physicality early (which IMO is easily done in regular dating by setting boundaries). That is a different thing.

 

Sorry zengirl, but I'm going to have to side with dasein on this one.

 

I really don't understand "friend first" dating. If you're dating you're not platonic friends, period. Platonic friends don't date, they are on different paths of "getting to know each other". But I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that the zengirl "friend first" method is distinctly different. However unfortunately, women out in the real world, many of them spew out this term like cheap beads during mardi gras.

 

I normally actually ignore this phrase when women utter it. I just do my thing anyway. And the fact is, if they like me, it doesn't matter. I'll be making out with them in no time, whether they claim "friend first" or not.

 

Maybe the bad "friend first" women are ruining it for the good "friend first" women. But the practical advise I would give to men is to ignore it, and just do your thing. If she likes you, it'll happen. If she doesn't, it won't. If this undermines your "friend first" stance, I'm sorry, but the real world is not LS.

 

But that's just for that one girl. For anybody else, I'm not going to accept the friendship offer next time I get it. And I will not keep trying with same girl. One no, and I go.

 

Thank you. Just remember, you cannot earn someone's romantic feelings -- money, services, attention, it doesn't matter, it won't work. That's because romantic feelings are given out due to their own willingness; it's not a trade.

 

However, you CAN be friends with women. In fact, it'll help you meet more women, so I highly recommend it. As far as "don't accept friendship", it depends on how much control you have. If you can turn off your interest in her and just really be platonic friends, and this person is worth being friends with, for any reason, including she has hot friends, then do it. If you have a hard time, say if you get jealous if you see her flirting with other men, then it's best you don't even try to be friends with her.

[dasein]

No, it's not. A lot of people - men and female - on LS seem to do friends-first dating and think it means not escalating physicality early (which IMO is easily done in regular dating by setting boundaries). That is a different thing.

 

"Friendzone" means, at its barest, the cross section of a woman's male acquaintances that she has no sexual interest in. Your first post sought to lay all responsibility for the existence of the "friendzone" as a term on men for insincerely attempting to "trick" sex or a romantic interest out of women who didn't want one or in not taking "no" for an answer.

 

That is an overly narrow, typically biased perspective that doesn't account for the fact that women are every bit as culpable in creating the "friendzone" issue as men are, if not much moreso, by lying to men in the process of rejecting them ("LJBF"), OR lying to both men AND themselves with the "friends first" stated preference.

 

Confusion caused by insincere women in both these closely related respects is why the word even exists in the first place. The word "friendzone" is an ironical joke, in other words, "how is it that being friends with someone somehow precludes sexual interest?" In rational land it doesn't, but of course we aren't in rational land when describing this particular immature female expression (LJBF).

 

Women have lied so much to men and over such an amount of time with "LJBF" that the need arose to create a -word- for the unhappy, confusing state resulting from such lies, and that word is "friendzone."

 

"Let's be friends," does not cause any confusion.

 

Dishonestly phrased, typical and expected. The way it is actually phrased is "Let's just be friends," not "let's be friends," but I suspect you know that full well.

 

That is a direct statement that alludes to no romantic potentials whatsoever.

 

Sure, once men learn that it's a lie. Before that? Well I suppose it's the man's fault then too for taking a woman at her plainly stated word.

 

Adding to the confusion is that there are mature, well-adjusted women out there, not a whole lot, but enough to be significant in the "confuse-o-metric" who do in fact use the term friendship very broadly, and though they aren't going to add a "we can f-ck if you want to" onto the declaration, it's clear to the experienced man that these women aren't closing any doors at all when they talk about friendship with a given man. Sometimes they will be massaging your wingwang while telling you how much your friendship means to them, but most often not, and you will be left to puzzle out which is which when the answer is simply...

 

STOP LYING.

 

is an easily-seen let down that leaves very little hope of romantic potential.

 

It's a lie. And some people expect honesty and forthrightness in others to a fault. I like those people, naive though they may be, better than I like liars.

 

That is a no. An eternal no. Again, this is the same thing as saying a guy who is just "looking for a FWB right now" is leading a girl on into thinking there is commitment. He is not, in that scenario, and the girl is not, in most of these.

 

No, it's not, because in the above scenario the guy did not -tell a lie- to the girl. He told the truth.

 

When women say "LJBF" they are lying for the most part, it means "I'm not interested" instead of simply expressing "I'm not interested," and the whole friendzone issue hinges on men gaining enough experience to discern that particular lie and see it for what it is.

 

Solution in daseinworld? STOP LYING. Confusion goes away, word becomes irrelevant.

 

Which is why I detailed several kinds of FZ situations, including "friends first" dating. I'm talking about the topic itself. We have to acknowledge that these are all different aspects, IMO, if we're going to get anywhere.

 

Just another version of the same closely related lie, just in that case, the woman is lying to herself too. Real "friends first" dating doesn't start out self-identifying as such, and only emerges in retrospect, "we were friends, then we felt more," never "we decided to start out as friends and then escalate into romance," at least never IME. When women use it as a preemptive statement, it is mostly decoded as "I am making another futile stab at changing how my attraction works, but will still be banging some dude I'm most certainly not buddy chums with while you are trying to be my dear sweet friend... sucker!"

[kaylan]

Because she doesnt want his pole in her hole.

 

/thread

[somedudegirl89]

God I hope so.

 

Somehow have to get bolder and more comfortable when I only get a string of rejections.

 

Basically my confidence needs to go up when my self-esteem is continuously being torn down

 

Be bolder somedude

[PlumPrincess]

Be bolder somedude

Are you his alter ego?

[NXS]

"Friendzone" means, at its barest, the cross section of a woman's male acquaintances that she has no sexual interest in. Your first post sought to lay all responsibility for the existence of the "friendzone" as a term on men for insincerely attempting to "trick" sex or a romantic interest out of women who didn't want one or in not taking "no" for an answer.

 

That is an overly narrow, typically biased perspective that doesn't account for the fact that women are every bit as culpable in creating the "friendzone" issue as men are, if not much moreso, by lying to men in the process of rejecting them ("LJBF"), OR lying to both men AND themselves with the "friends first" stated preference.

 

Confusion caused by insincere women in both these closely related respects is why the word even exists in the first place. The word "friendzone" is an ironical joke, in other words, "how is it that being friends with someone somehow precludes sexual interest?" In rational land it doesn't, but of course we aren't in rational land when describing this particular immature female expression (LJBF).

 

Women have lied so much to men and over such an amount of time with "LJBF" that the need arose to create a -word- for the unhappy, confusing state resulting from such lies, and that word is "friendzone."

 

 

 

Dishonestly phrased, typical and expected. The way it is actually phrased is "Let's just be friends," not "let's be friends," but I suspect you know that full well.

 

 

 

Sure, once men learn that it's a lie. Before that? Well I suppose it's the man's fault then too for taking a woman at her plainly stated word.

 

Adding to the confusion is that there are mature, well-adjusted women out there, not a whole lot, but enough to be significant in the "confuse-o-metric" who do in fact use the term friendship very broadly, and though they aren't going to add a "we can f-ck if you want to" onto the declaration, it's clear to the experienced man that these women aren't closing any doors at all when they talk about friendship with a given man. Sometimes they will be massaging your wingwang while telling you how much your friendship means to them, but most often not, and you will be left to puzzle out which is which when the answer is simply...

 

STOP LYING.

 

 

 

It's a lie. And some people expect honesty and forthrightness in others to a fault. I like those people, naive though they may be, better than I like liars.

 

 

 

No, it's not, because in the above scenario the guy did not -tell a lie- to the girl. He told the truth.

 

When women say "LJBF" they are lying for the most part, it means "I'm not interested" instead of simply expressing "I'm not interested," and the whole friendzone issue hinges on men gaining enough experience to discern that particular lie and see it for what it is.

 

Solution in daseinworld? STOP LYING. Confusion goes away, word becomes irrelevant.

 

 

 

Just another version of the same closely related lie, just in that case, the woman is lying to herself too. Real "friends first" dating doesn't start out self-identifying as such, and only emerges in retrospect, "we were friends, then we felt more," never "we decided to start out as friends and then escalate into romance," at least never IME. When women use it as a preemptive statement, it is mostly decoded as "I am making another futile stab at changing how my attraction works, but will still be banging some dude I'm most certainly not buddy chums with while you are trying to be my dear sweet friend... sucker!"

 

How's it going Dasein?

 

Seriously, you should write a book. Your posts here are exceptional.

[dasein]

Hey, NXS, thanks. Haven't seen you around here for some time. Hope all is well.

[irc333]

How's it going Dasein?

 

Seriously, you should write a book. Your posts here are exceptional.

 

 

Yeah, Great post, Dasein,

 

Funny, one should recall one of my posts....where I was doing "clean house" of my Facebook friends. I typically remove people from my friends list when they start ignoring emails. Esp. if I had spent time with them at events and gatherings and on the phone.

 

One in particular didn't notice I had removed her from my friends list, only to send me an unsolicited email saying she just NOW noticed, and thought I would lead a life of loneliness if I have a habit of doing this all the time with women.

 

She's actually a lead in her department at a psychological facility, a counselor.

 

She stated that I made her realize that some men can't be friends with women, she thought the reason I had removed her, because I had romantic interest in her...but my REAL reason for removing her, was the fact she was ignoring me the past few weeks, which I find a breach of our "friendship" anyways, but I did have a romantic thing for anyhow, so perhaps it's all moot?

 

But I was a bit put off by her implying by writing her off, that if I'm doing this as a habit with other friendships with women, I"m just shooting myself in the foot when it comes to social circles, and might wind up being a hermit. LOL

 

I just shook my head at that one.

 

She told me,with her other male friends, once they've learned she had no kind of reciprocal interest in THEM, they were okay with "sticking around" as friends with her.

 

She did appreciate my honesty, and perhaps she herself was learning that...men CAN be friends with women, but if a guy takes a particular fancy to a CERTAIN woman, well, that might not be the case with said woman...if she has no mutual interest.

 

But can anyone agree, that if you're NOT okay with being friends with a woman, once she throws the, "WEll, I'm not interested in you in THAT way, shall we just be friends?" That one claims that's unhealthy for a guy to refuse that friendship?

 

YEs...no?

[xxoo]

When women say "LJBF" they are lying for the most part, it means "I'm not interested" instead of simply expressing "I'm not interested," and the whole friendzone issue hinges on men gaining enough experience to discern that particular lie and see it for what it is.

 

What exactly is the lie?

 

"Let's just be friends" is a way of saying "I'm not interested in dating you." How could it be interpreted as possible interest?

 

This may be a case of "man speak" and "woman speak", but misunderstanding does not mean that the other was lying.

 

It sounds like you want a direct "I'm not interested in dating you", but that can be HARD for a person to say to someone yout like as a person, and don't want to hurt. So you cushion it, and respond with a positive instead of a negative: Let's just be friends. And if the guy agrees, we assume that he is ok with just being friends--as we are.

[ThaWholigan]

What exactly is the lie?

 

"Let's just be friends" is a way of saying "I'm not interested in dating you." How could it be interpreted as possible interest?

 

This may be a case of "man speak" and "woman speak", but misunderstanding does not mean that the other was lying.

 

It sounds like you want a direct "I'm not interested in dating you", but that can be HARD for a person to say to someone yout like as a person, and don't want to hurt. So you cushion it, and respond with a positive instead of a negative: Let's just be friends. And if the guy agrees, we assume that he is ok with just being friends--as we are.

To add to that, I've seen a lot of occasions where guys really don't take the blunt approach very well and it threatens to escalate into quite a messy scenario, mostly emotional though potentially physical. Some guys really take it badly.

[udolipixie]

Surely when a guy get's put into the friendzone, it's not because he acted too much like a friend, didn't flirt enough, didn't make a move early on, etc. Surely it would've just happened anyway? Surely it means that the girl just isn't attracted to you/lost attraction for you, and isn't anything to do with what you have done or haven't done when being around her?

 

From my experiences/observations the gal sees the guy as a friend not a romantic/sexual partner.

[dasein]

What exactly is the lie?

 

The lie exists because in a vast majority of such cases, the woman wants done with the man entirely, but whatever she wants, it isn't a friendship. She either wants continuing solicitous attention supply from him, entirely on her terms, which is -not- friendship by any healthy definition, or she wants him to "take a hint" and leave her be entirely, which is certainly not friendship either.

 

"Let's just be friends" is a way of saying "I'm not interested in dating you." How could it be interpreted as possible interest?

 

No, "I'm not interested in dating you" is a way of saying "I'm not interested in dating you." "Let's just be friends" is a way of saying "I'm not interested in being straightforward with you, and my willingness to be honest ends at the exact place that the possibility of any discomfort for me begins."

 

This may be a case of "man speak" and "woman speak", but misunderstanding does not mean that the other was lying.

 

No, misunderstanding doesn't mean the other is lying, making a purposefully dishonest statement for whatever reason is though.

 

It sounds like you want a direct "I'm not interested in dating you", but that can be HARD for a person to say to someone yout like as a person, and don't want to hurt.

 

No, that's not hard at all. Telling someone their family member is dead is hard, telling someone they have a dread disease is hard, asking someone for money they owe you is hard.

 

Telling someone you aren't interested in dating them? Easy peasy, and let's not pretend the primary concern is for -their- feelings. Most every man who has heard the phrase knows -exactly- for whose sake the lie is being told, and it isn't his sake.

[dasein]

To add to that, I've seen a lot of occasions where guys really don't take the blunt approach very well and it threatens to escalate into quite a messy scenario, mostly emotional though potentially physical. Some guys really take it badly.

 

I've never seen such, nor known of such men anywhere IRL, only on tv and in movies. I've known plenty of men to take rejection badly, but not take it out on the woman rejecting them... past HS. I'm sure every woman has a couple of stories of men who cursed her or whatever when rejected, and those few bad reactions are like the catcalling, menacing guy who won't go away in the bar, the narrow exception.

[spiderowl]

There are lots of different reasons why guys might be friends rather than sexual partners. I could give you a few but I'm sure they would equally apply to why women are only seen as friends too. Some reasons are 'criticisms', I suppose, but some are just incompatibilities. Thinking back on reasons why I could only ever see some guys as friends (and in no particular order):

 

- he only ever acts like a friend, never shows interest in more and is too confusing in that respect (it must be scary to show your hand but if a woman says no it's not necessarily an insult, it could be an incompatibility)

- he has hobbies she hates - e.g. hunting or wildly dangerous pursuits

- he smells in some way (bad breath, hardly washes)

- he's unkempt and OK a few feet away but not attractive to be close to

- he drinks too much, smokes, or has some other dependency that gets in the way

- he's too obsessed with his hobbies and has no interest in mine, in other words can't talk about anything that matters to me too

- he has some dodgy attitudes towards women, other ethnicities, authority, animals (I doubt he'd even be a friend if this were the case, but if I saw something as an eccentricity rather than serious, it would still be offputting)

- he's just not physically attractive to me

- he has annoying habits (e.g. checks his phone all the time when I'm talking to him)

- he doesn't appear responsible - isn't trying to find work, e.g. or drives much too fast for anyone's safety, certainly can't imagine leaving him in charge of a baby one day

- he's clearly attracted to someone else or is always ogling other women

- he's always making comments or gestures about other women that I find uncomfortable (e.g. she's got a good pair on her!)

- we have nothing in common to talk about

- he's physically rough, doesn't know what gentle is

- he has bad manners

- he's less intelligent than I am (not being big-headed here but most people would find a mismatch uncomfortable)

- he's into criminal activities

- he's too young but thinks he's mature because he likes 'older women'

- I can see he's not thinking long term and he's only interested in sex

Edited April 10, 2012 by spiderowl

[prune juice]

Surely when a guy get's put into the friendzone, it's not because he acted too much like a friend, didn't flirt enough, didn't make a move early on, etc. Surely it would've just happened anyway? Surely it means that the girl just isn't attracted to you/lost attraction for you, and isn't anything to do with what you have done or haven't done when being around her?

 

waiting too long to ask for sex is a sure way to end up there.

[counterman]

When a girl decides that she wants be friends as opposed to dating you, it's either she's trying to let you down soft (and has no intention of really being a friend) or she really does see you guys only as friends. Now, the former, I have experienced plenty of times. I know this because I have accepted the offer of friendship before and have had girls not flake or disappear on me, and I assume they were merely saying 'let's just be friends' to soften the rejection. The latter, when a girl actually wants to be friends, I haven't experienced yet but that's not to say that it hasn't happened for other people (and going from threads on this forum, it has). The issue is, as Zengirl has said, is when guys accept being 'friends' in the hope that the girl may one day be interested, as opposed to taking a risk of possible rejection by asking her straight out on a date. However, this rarely eventuates in the outcome desired by the guy (which is to be more than friends), which leaves him complaining about being 'friendzoned'. Another really common scenario I've seen is when a girl rejects a guy and the guy hangs around with the girl as friends in the hope that he can change her mind. What usually happens is the girl doesn't reciprocate any interest in anything more than being friends and the guy becomes very bitter. Personally, I don't thing guys get put into the 'friendzone' -- he puts himself in there, if there is one. "Let's just be friends" is saying that she doesn't want to date you. Why? She's probably not attracted to you, you might not have anything in common, she doesn't like the way you talk; it could be anything! Still doesn't change the fact that she doesn't want to date you.

 

I was on a first date with a girl, and instead of flirting with her and having a fun conversation, I was talking about the mundane things, uni, high school, work, etc; basically playing it really conservative and really safe. Although her attractiveness was enough to get me excited, on her end, she probably wasn't feeling it. She would have been interested at first, but as the date went on, I'm pretty sure I could feel her interest waning. When I tried to set up a second date, she suggested just being friends, which I refused. This happened with another girl I was on a date with, and I was really attracted to this girl. Same story but when she said she wanted to be friends, I accepted. Got to the point where I knew I was tricking myself in hoping one day she might change her mind; I knew my motivation for the friendship wasn't right, so I ended it. In both cases, I wasn't truly being myself. I was too conservative, bland, nervous and played things really safe; I wasn't comfortable with myself. I guarantee if I had been more assertive and talked about what I really wanted to talk about and just be more open and fun, things would have been different. I would have at least had a second date, and what could have happened from that, who knows. The best judge of future behaviour is past behaviour. So if those girls saw a boring, bland guy in the last date, what do they think is going to happen in the next date? (I know it's hard to judge through one date, but often they go by how the feel!) The same thing. We all want a bit of excitement, so instead of wondering what you should done or what you shouldn't have done, just do it! Take a risk.