RedRobin Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 The people I've viewed who have been able to successfully navigate all areas of their lives (personally and professionally) in a respectful way are... well... the most successful overall. The people I mentioned who married someone they met from work did not subject themselves to the messed up dating pool that is online dating... at least where I currently live. The fact that they were able to discreetly and respectfully find good people to date and marry among a community of peers is the example I prefer to follow. 1
zengirl Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 The people I've viewed who have been able to successfully navigate all areas of their lives (personally and professionally) in a respectful way are... well... the most successful overall. The people I mentioned who married someone they met from work did not subject themselves to the messed up dating pool that is online dating... at least where I currently live. The fact that they were able to discreetly and respectfully find good people to date and marry among a community of peers is the example I prefer to follow. Yes, my parents met at work. I don't have the thing against OLD that you do obviously, as it worked for me, but I've dated at work before as well as turned down opportunities to date at work before, without ever feeling harassed in any of those situations. I think it's still a common place for people to meet, though less likely than it was before. I know quite a few couples who met at work, and many who've dated coworkers. I do not know a single woman who's ever personally expressed to me they felt harassed because someone offered polite romantic interest (if you can't figure out "polite," I'd suggest, "Anything you could say in front of your grandmother" I guess, but to me, politeness has never really seemed complex). If someone was crass or oversexualized in the workplace, they may have felt uncomfortable, but usually when that happens, it's not someone expressing romantic interest anyway, so I don't think it really suits the OP's original query.
wwwjd Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 Sorry, lawyers win this one. Work women can just miss out on my greatness (fun sarcasm intended there). I've personally witnessed the female menstual cycle turn a lovely, calm, demure girl into a raging, crazed, paranoid, and depressed psychopath. I understand that is truly a monthly chemical imbalancer, but that doesn't mean I should trust it. Natures cruel joke can end my career? I'll steer clear, thanks. In case someone doesn't understand what I am trying to say there.... woman can change their mind, or have their chemistry change it FOR THEM and the tables turn, and I get sued and fired. Not trying to be a jerk, just acknowledging this reality.
prune juice Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 its the mixed messages which annoy guys. some sals tell guys to flirt and some don't. what's a guy to do?
RedRobin Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 (edited) Yes, my parents met at work. I don't have the thing against OLD that you do obviously, as it worked for me, but I've dated at work before as well as turned down opportunities to date at work before, without ever feeling harassed in any of those situations. I think it's still a common place for people to meet, though less likely than it was before. I know quite a few couples who met at work, and many who've dated coworkers. I do not know a single woman who's ever personally expressed to me they felt harassed because someone offered polite romantic interest (if you can't figure out "polite," I'd suggest, "Anything you could say in front of your grandmother" I guess, but to me, politeness has never really seemed complex). If someone was crass or oversexualized in the workplace, they may have felt uncomfortable, but usually when that happens, it's not someone expressing romantic interest anyway, so I don't think it really suits the OP's original query. I agree with you... I also happen to believe that actual 'sexual harrassment' is a form of hazing... a power move. Has nothing to do with 'sex' or sincere romantic interest. Men who are paranoid about women are doing me a favor by making themselves unavailable in any setting, to be honest. About OLD, I suspect it works for a different demographic or even location. After I move, I may give it another shot. We'll see. Edited April 10, 2012 by RedRobin
zengirl Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 I agree with you... I also happen to believe that actual 'sexual harrassment' is a form of hazing... a power move. Has nothing to do with 'sex' or sincere romantic interest. Very true.
Feelsgoodman Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 Only the most inept man would be able to cross the line from flirting into creeper harassment behavior without knowing it. Id like to think most guys know what flirting is ok at work and what behaviors could be construed as harassment. The difference between harmless flirting and "sexual harassment" depends not only on your actions but also the girl's level of attraction to you. The same words and actions can be interpreted as either confident or "creepy" depending on the guy they are coming from. But even if you are an attractive man, the risk of being falsely accused of sexual harassment is still present. Say you flirt with several female coworkers and one of them gets jealous and reports you for sexual harassment. Such a scenario is actually not that uncommon. The bottom line is that sexual harassment laws give women a tool for terrorizing their male coworkers with impunity. That's why the smart thing to do is to completely avoid any flirtatious behavior in the workplace. Better to be safe than sorry.
Feelsgoodman Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 Back that up with first hand information. I've observed that to be crap. Most people behave and can laugh things off. In the cases where I've legitimately been 'sexually harrassed', I found other ways to manage it that were more effective than running to HR. But your kind of fear-mongering is effective in keeping the worst of the worst at bay and preventing the workplace from becoming a pick-up joint. So keep it up. What gives you the authority to speak on behalf of all or even most other women? Just because you can deal with an uncomfortable situation by laughing things off does not mean that other women would respond in the same manner. There are so many crazy women out there nowadays...Statistics show that 25% of all American females take mental health drugs. Add to that all the undiagnosed psychos, BPDs, etc. and you have a huge chunk of the female population that is simply not mentally adequate.
RedRobin Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 What gives you the authority to speak on behalf of all or even most other women? Just because you can deal with an uncomfortable situation by laughing things off does not mean that other women would respond in the same manner. There are so many crazy women out there nowadays...Statistics show that 25% of all American females take mental health drugs. Add to that all the undiagnosed psychos, BPDs, etc. and you have a huge chunk of the female population that is simply not mentally adequate. oooo! The scary boogeywoman strikes again!!! ooooo!
Feelsgoodman Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 oooo! The scary boogeywoman strikes again!!! ooooo! A woman making jokes in a sexual harassment thread is about as appropriate as a man making jokes in a rape thread. For many men, the risk of being falsely accused of sexual harassment is a very serious and I would even say grave concern. It's not funny...at all.
dasein Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 That's because you've never experienced harassment. Oh, I sure have, in dozens if not hundreds of instances. But you know what? I'm a man, with a man's sense of humor and perspective, and in the grand scheme of things, all the possible bad things people can do or say to each other, if a woman rubs her hand up and down my ass in the lunch line, comes into my office and starts spontaneously rubbing my shoulders, makes the 1000th "men are pigs, dogs, pervos, gomers, goobers, pathetic, abusive" tossoff comment, even in environments where I'm a distinct minority and estrogen clogs up the halls, it's just not a great big hairy deal. There are much worse things in life to get bent over.
zengirl Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 Oh, I sure have, on dozens if not hundreds of instances. But you know what? I'm a man, with a man's sense of humor and perspective, and in the grand scheme of things, all the possible bad things people can do or say to each other, if a woman rubs her hand up and down my ass in the lunch line, comes into my office and starts spontaneously rubbing my shoulders, makes the 1000th "men are pigs, dogs, pervos, gomers, goobers, pathetic, abusive" tossoff comment, even in environments where I'm a distinct minority and estrogen clogs up the halls, it's just not a great big hairy deal. There are much worse things in life to get bent over. To me, feeling perpetually harassed in a workplace that is compulsory for me to earn my living is a pretty big deal. Harassment is not generally not defined as a one-off incident (though an extreme one can be, legally) but a repetitive and persistent issue. That kind of degradation day after day, personally targeted at a particular employee or subset of employees. . . you find that "not a big deal"? You and I truly live in different worlds. What is a big deal to you?
RedRobin Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 A woman making jokes in a sexual harassment thread is about as appropriate as a man making jokes in a rape thread. For many men, the risk of being falsely accused of sexual harassment is a very serious and I would even say grave concern. It's not funny...at all. Really. Well, I don't like it when people advise women to be uber-cautious of their every move when they are out and about either.... I'm not one to walk around like a scared little bunny rabbit. It is wise to take reasonable precautions, but don't lose sleep over it. And I joke because I really do think the 'fear' you talk about is unjustified. To me it just sounds like some guys are pissed they even have to work around women (unless they look nice and add to the scenery)... and who don't want to take responsibility for their behavior or learn how to treat people respectfully. That's how it comes across to me. I would add that the workplace in the US has become overly fraught with litigious paranoia altogether. It isn't limited to just sexual harrassment lawsuits. Alot of companies discourage employees from giving references, for example. They are concerned that if someone refuses to give a positive reference, then they'll be sued. As an example.
wwwjd Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 the US has become overly fraught with litigious paranoia altogether. ...circling back to the lawyers again. Anyone else see lawyers as a monopoly? If I get one, you have to get one... we all need to STOP using them so they can go away.
zengirl Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 I would add that the workplace in the US has become overly fraught with litigious paranoia altogether. It isn't limited to just sexual harrassment lawsuits. Alot of companies discourage employees from giving references, for example. They are concerned that if someone refuses to give a positive reference, then they'll be sued. As an example. Well, this is reasonably true certainly. In education, it's even worse.
dasein Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 you find that "not a big deal"? No, and I find characterizing people expressing their normal human desires in relatively innocuous ways, workplace or no, as necessarily "degrading" to be melodramatic. What is a big deal to you? Let's leave that genie in the bottle where this thread is concerned, shall we? Just imagine a giant ranty wall o text, titled "what is a big deal?" Imagine the listed items having to do with loss of life and limb, involuntary servitude and lawful discrimination, and none having to do with having one's ass complimented at the office. Saves me the trouble of typing it all out.
Feelsgoodman Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 It is wise to take reasonable precautions, but don't lose sleep over it. And I joke because I really do think the 'fear' you talk about is unjustified. Thanks for the empty reassurance How would you feel if you knew that a male co-worker could, at any time, without a shred of evidence, destroy your career (one that you spent most of your adult life trying to establish) by making a false allegation? Do you think you might lose some sleep over it?? As other posters in this thread have attested to from personal experience, this is a very serious and real danger for many men, and especially so for men working in professional fields. This has nothing to do with not wanting to work around women (what a preposterous suggestion). Unlike the courts, corporate HR departments do not treat you as innocent until proven guilty. You are automatically judged guilty if there is even the slightest risk of the company getting sued or receiving bad publicity as a result of a sexual harassment allegation (regardless of whether the said allegation has any merit). I would add that the workplace in the US has become overly fraught with litigious paranoia altogether. It isn't limited to just sexual harrassment lawsuits. Alot of companies discourage employees from giving references, for example. They are concerned that if someone refuses to give a positive reference, then they'll be sued. As an example. The U.S. also happens to be the most litigious country in the world...by a long shot. It has more lawyers than the rest of the world combined. Do you think there might be a correlation between this fact and what you call "litigious paranoia"?
zengirl Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 No, and I find characterizing people expressing their normal human desires in relatively innocuous ways, workplace or no, as necessarily "degrading" to be melodramatic. I agree that expressing your normal human desires in relatively innocuous ways is not degrading. How was that pertinent to the example I gave? Those men were attempting to degrade me and my work. As RedRobin says, it was a power play. It was about taking away my agency. Someone saying I look hot in a dress or something isn't going to bother me one bit. I suggest, for common courtesy as well as a risk-free life, saying things as innocuously as possible, personally, but I said outright that flirting in the workplace is not harassment. Nothing innocuous is. The whole point is these were NOT innocuous ways of doing things or normal human desires (the desire to diminish, conquer, bully, or rob someone of their agency is NOT a normal human desire) and that's what made them harassment. Let's leave that genie in the bottle where this thread is concerned, shall we? Just imagine a giant ranty wall o text, titled "what is a big deal?" Imagine the listed items having to do with loss of life and limb, involuntary servitude and lawful discrimination, and none having to do with having one's ass complimented at the office. Saves me the trouble of typing it all out. I would say my physical well-being is more important to me than harassment, certainly, but my mental well-being is right behind my physical well-being and being harassed. My story was not about having my ass complimented (though in many contexts, I'd find that annoying, sure) and purposefully so. It was about being continuously degraded by men I was outperforming who took their power from saying crass things that brought my sexuality into the workplace, where it did not belong, and insulted my abilities as a professional.
zengirl Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 Thanks for the empty reassurance How would you feel if you knew that a male co-worker could, at any time, without a shred of evidence, destroy your career (one that you spent most of your adult life trying to establish) by making a false allegation? Do you think you might lose some sleep over it?? He can. Men bring forth less sexual harassment suits because either they are sexually harassed less or they feel less able to bring them forward (research really doesn't indicate the latter, but it could be since if they feel that way they may be less likely to admit they feel that way, etc), but they are not more likely to LOSE them. Still, men DO file sexual harassment charges. Why are people acting like men are never sexually harassed?
dasein Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 To me it just sounds like some guys are pissed they even have to work around women (unless they look nice and add to the scenery)... I love working with women, as long as they are doing something approximating "work," and not turning the office into Peyton Place, trying to climb the corporate ladder from under a corner office desk(s), making everyone around them miserable due to their inability to take constructive criticism and thereby improve their work product. If they aren't doing those things, I'd rather work with women than men by a modest preference.
dasein Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 I agree that expressing your normal human desires in relatively innocuous ways is not degrading. How was that pertinent to the example I gave? Those men were attempting to degrade me and my work. As RedRobin says, it was a power play. It was about taking away my agency. It was about giving you sh-t and backhanded congratulation without needless supplicating, not denying your "agency." Men do the same thing to each other every day without it being taken as "degrading." Keep trying to analyze corporate america in terms of women's studies jargon formulated by people who have no meaningful knowledge of corporate america at all, and keep making the same old hyperbolic errors in judgment that lead us to believe the last thing you all want is equality and what you really want is an endless whiney pulpit to go on forever and ever about all the injustices of the world done to women. If treatment is impairing your ability to do your job, absolutely, go to HR. But the differences between the Hollywood "North Country" sexual harrassment urban legend environment, and what goes on in actuality are extreme and telling. I remember Daphne having a real example of sexual harrassment, unless I am mistaken as to poster, that I thought was over the line too, maybe she will come back in here and post it.
Feelsgoodman Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 He can. Men bring forth less sexual harassment suits because either they are sexually harassed less or they feel less able to bring them forward (research really doesn't indicate the latter, but it could be since if they feel that way they may be less likely to admit they feel that way, etc), but they are not more likely to LOSE them. Still, men DO file sexual harassment charges. Why are people acting like men are never sexually harassed? Sure, he can...in theory. In reality, your chances of being accused of sexual harassment by a man are pretty much nil. You can afford to "not lose any sleep" over the risk of being falsely accused of sexual harassment for the same reason I can afford not to worry too much about being raped by a woman.
zengirl Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 Sure, he can...in theory. In reality, your chances of being accused of sexual harassment by a man are pretty much nil. You can afford to "not lose any sleep" over the risk of being falsely accused of sexual harassment for the same reason I can afford not to worry too much about being raped by a woman. I don't think the stats quite match up. I'm also not sure how many false cases are brought by men or women (hard to say really). But it's not just in theory. About 1/5 of all sexual harassment claims are brought by men these days. That's still a minority, but it ain't nothing. I think diminishing the notion of men being sexually harassed is harmful to men and women. Men can also sexually harass men (even if neither is gay) and women can sexually harass women (even if neither is gay), etc. Honestly, the whole notion of "Sexual harassment" being somehow connected to "dating" in the workplace is a bit absurd. Most cases are not connected to flirting or dating at all---they are cases where there is some degree of hostility or power deficit between the two parties. Unless y'all date differently than I do, that has no application to sincere flirting.
Feelsgoodman Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 I don't think the stats quite match up. I'm also not sure how many false cases are brought by men or women (hard to say really). But it's not just in theory. About 1/5 of all sexual harassment claims are brought by men these days. That's still a minority, but it ain't nothing. Source for that number? Also, how many of those complaints are against women, as opposed to other men?
zengirl Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 It was about giving you sh-t and backhanded congratulation without needless supplicating, not denying your "agency." No, it wasn't. And they didn't do it to each other, which is a crap basis for your argument anyway, but doesn't exist. At no time, did I see any assertions that any of them had slept with anyone to get high numbers. Nor was the only other woman in my department -- an older woman with mediocre numbers -- ever spoken to in that way. As such, I was targeted. At any rate, perhaps giving people **** -- particularly about charged subjects, such as referring to them as prostitutes -- is not appropriate within the workplace or for people you barely know. Particularly in a competitive workplace, like an accounts team. I'm not really sure why that's difficult for you to understand. There are ways we speak to people in a professional environment and ways we don't. Men do the same thing to each other every day without it being taken as "degrading." Keep trying to analyze corporate america in terms of women's studies jargon formulated by people who have no meaningful knowledge of corporate america at all, and keep making the same old hyperbolic errors in judgment that lead us to believe the last thing you all want is equality and what you really want is an endless whiney pulpit to go on forever and ever about all the injustices of the world done to women. If treatment is impairing your ability to do your job, absolutely, go to HR. But the differences between the Hollywood "North Country" sexual harrassment urban legend environment, and what goes on in actuality are extreme and telling. Huh? I did myself a disservice by taking it and leaving. I should've reported it (my company had no HR -- it was a boutique agency). I didn't know any better, so I just got away from it. That DID hinder me --- it made me want to leave. I'm happier in my current field anyway, but I should've at least reported it (not to be confused with litigated it) and had my voice heard, and I was afraid to do so. So. . . I certainly never got my pulpit. Many companies don't have HR recourse (smaller ones) and those are the places where people are vulnerable to such harassment, IMO. I've never taken a woman's studies class, fwiw. This experience was how I learned about sexual harassment, though I didn't realize I could've done anything about it until much later. I'm sure there are worse versions of harassment than mine, but it was still harassment.
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