Star Gazer Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 there we go and who's the judge and jury gonna believe? the non smooth guy with poor social skills is going down big time in a he said she said battle. I direct you to Weeks v. Baker & McKenzie (1998) 63 Cal.App.4th 1128, cited in support of claims for punitive damages across the country, even outside of California. What Weeks personally experienced was relatively minor, and yet, careers were destroyed. You tell me if it's worth the risk of misbehaving in the workplace.
wwwjd Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 Look at all this: am I still one of "those guys"? from THIS thread: Because if things go wrong it is your word against hers and guess who they will believe. ...lucky for them or they'd all be fired and embroiled in sexual harrassment lawsuits. a man who compliments a woman in any way could be in danger if it's the wrong woman. easy target for scammer, lottery ticket for her. Firm settled to avoid publicity. Asked a woman out -one single time- at one of his territory locations and was fired within a couple days it's the men and not women who get fired over sexual harassment. You only need to run across one batty woman and she can destroy your career. I've seen several men lose their careers over a sexual harassment claim couldn't possibly list all the cases I've worked on that demonstrate the existence of he-said-she-said is not "crap." Am I still that guy? No. Just not worth it to me. Besides, I do just fine OUTSIDE the office. HOWEVER... recently a flock of young girls made me the brunt of a joke about someone getting knocked up being my fault..... it was all in good fun, everyone giggling and laughing over it. And I enjoyed the attention and thought it was funny to. But lawsuit material? SEXUAL accusations at the work place?? OH YEAH. I'd never bother with it, but still..... I didn't go ANY further into that fun conversation at the office.
prune juice Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 I direct you to Weeks v. Baker & McKenzie (1998) 63 Cal.App.4th 1128, cited in support of claims for punitive damages across the country, even outside of California. What Weeks personally experienced was relatively minor, and yet, careers were destroyed. You tell me if it's worth the risk of misbehaving in the workplace. without even looking it isn't worth it. i'll read it if its online. one wrong word can ruin a career.
EasyHeart Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 I direct you to Weeks v. Baker & McKenzie (1998) 63 Cal.App.4th 1128, cited in support of claims for punitive damages across the country, even outside of California. What Weeks personally experienced was relatively minor, and yet, careers were destroyed. You tell me if it's worth the risk of misbehaving in the workplace.Oh man, I remember that case!!! People were freaking out when that came down!
EasyHeart Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 The 90s were bad, because no one knew what the rules were. It seems to have gotten better now, but that might just be because I'm an old fart and just stay away from people. It was just about "harassment", either. It filtered down to all sorts of silly things. I remember a group of us be disciplined for talking about football. Several younger guys in the office were football fans, so Monday mornings we would gather in the hallways and talk about the games. Two women who didn't like football complained that we were excluding them from the conversations and creating a hostile work environment by talking about "good old boy" topics like football. I used to like to come into work really early. So did two other guys who were about my same age, so we got in the habit of going to an early lunch because we were hungry, plus we could beat the noon rush. People noticed and asked to go along, which was fine with us, but the whole point of our "Lunch Bunch" was that we went early, didn't go too far, and ate quickly. The same two women complained that we had created a "boys club" that excluded them. So we made a point of expressly inviting them and then they immediately started complaining that they didn't want to eat so early and that the places we went weren't fancy enough. So what had started as a few guys grabbing a quick sandwich together had turned into a two hour ordeal. After a few weeks, we gave up and just stared eating sandwiches alone at our desks.
RedRobin Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 Absolutely true. The problem is that "most women" don't matter. You only need to run across one batty woman and she can destroy your career. I've seen several men lose their careers over a sexual harassment claim; I've never seen the "homewrecker" thing except in movies from the 1950s. But gossip and social ostracizing are completely different from court proceedings. People can gossip about me as much as they want, but I HATE getting sued. I only know of one situation... the woman claimed that one of my co-workers at the company I used to work at was constantly staring at her breasts and said claimed it created a hostile work environment. I didn't know her. He always had a good reputation with his co-workers and myself. A couple of years later... she was 'workplanned' outta there. I saw him recently in the cafeteria of my old company (I was there on other business). He seemed to be very happy and doing well. Only once did I witness a guy getting his hands slapped by management. He made fun of a co-worker's last name in front of everyone in the department. Her last name was "Loose". The next day, the manager came up to him in front of a couple of other co-workers (and myself) and handed him a folder that he claimed to be a harrassment claim against him. When the guy looked visibly shocked in front of everyone. The manager said, "Just kidding. Next time, I won't be." Oh wait, I did just think of another. A co-worker told a young lady that he'd like her help sometime working off his boner. In front of me. When she went to HR, I supported her. Now, if he were saying it to me, I would have laughed and said "We'd have to find it first, big boy." or something along those lines. Or... "You find the charge number for that, and I'll think about it."
Author spiderowl Posted April 9, 2012 Author Posted April 9, 2012 It seems guys are wary (or least the ones answering here are), but are there ways to form a relationship with a woman at work if you wanted to? How would you go about that, knowing you need to avoid any advances being taken the wrong way?
wwwjd Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 It seems guys are wary (or least the ones answering here are), but are there ways to form a relationship with a woman at work if you wanted to? How would you go about that, knowing you need to avoid any advances being taken the wrong way? Friendship. Slow, progressing, growing friendship. SO FAR, there are no laws against being nice and freindly and smiling or holding eye contact. If I'm nice enough and interesting enough that SHE becomes freindly back, we will take it OUT of the work environment. Or wait. Does that make me one of the creepy guys that kaylan was talking about that doesn't know how to do things properly in an office environment?
Author spiderowl Posted April 9, 2012 Author Posted April 9, 2012 I think if she thought you were creepy you'd be getting avoidance vibes back from her. She would be avoiding speaking to you, spending time alone with you and generally be quite cool. She would not be catching your eye except with a glare on her face. It would be pretty clear that she's not interested. Guys that think a girl is interested in them when she's giving them the cold-shoulder must be really insensitive.
Mr. Slim Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 Honestly, I'm not as worried as much about a lawsuit as much as I am affecting my career. The bottom line is flirting, no matter how subtle, is not professional. I'm on the rise and I'm trying to eventually end up in upper management. If you are some rank and file guy and you just don't care then you can probably get away with it. But at least at my job, they aren't going to put these types in the top spots because if you are going to be leader then people need to be comfortable with you, and need to be able to function with you in a subordinate role. I know for a fact the flirty type men at my job make a segment of the women population there uneasy, because they have told me. They aren't crossing any lines, but that doesn't mean their antics are always welcome either. Office dynamics are still weird though, even in 2012. I'm constantly being bombarded by borderline inappropriate attention from middle-aged, mostly married women. I don't know if they are just messing with me because they feel like they can get away with it, or if they are really trying to seduce me. And I'm not one of those people who thinks that if someone glances at them or touches their shoulder that they are hitting on them. This is repeated, blatant stuff.
RedRobin Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 (edited) Honestly, I'm not as worried as much about a lawsuit as much as I am affecting my career. The bottom line is flirting, no matter how subtle, is not professional. I'm on the rise and I'm trying to eventually end up in upper management. If you are some rank and file guy and you just don't care then you can probably get away with it. But at least at my job, they aren't going to put these types in the top spots because if you are going to be leader then people need to be comfortable with you, and need to be able to function with you in a subordinate role. I know for a fact the flirty type men at my job make a segment of the women population there uneasy, because they have told me. They aren't crossing any lines, but that doesn't mean their antics are always welcome either. Office dynamics are still weird though, even in 2012. I'm constantly being bombarded by borderline inappropriate attention from middle-aged, mostly married women. I don't know if they are just messing with me because they feel like they can get away with it, or if they are really trying to seduce me. And I'm not one of those people who thinks that if someone glances at them or touches their shoulder that they are hitting on them. This is repeated, blatant stuff. I'll chime in... the three people I know of who met their spouses at work are all on the rise. One person in particular... he and I did our little 'dance' and when it didn't work out, everything was fine. I have no problems staying in touch with him professionally. He ultimately married a different woman from one of the other 'branch' offices. He's a direct report to the president of that branch (this is a large multi-national organization, so he's now in charge of hundreds of people). The second person I know is close to the other person's rank I just mentioned. Also a 'climber'. The third... She now has the same rank as the person I mentioned above. All three of these people, I think, had their careers ENHANCED by choosing from within the company 'family', as it were. Keep in mind though, I'm talking about a large company. Things may be quite different in a smaller company. I think what differentiates their dating activity from some others perhaps, is that their intentions are for marriage. There is no dating for 'sport' in the workplace... or f*ng someone just to see if they can. I'm sure they pursued the objects of their affection the same way they do business. Pragmatically and precisely. Edited April 9, 2012 by RedRobin
EasyHeart Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 A lot depends on where you work. If you work at a huge corporation and see a cute woman in another department, I don't think that's a big deal. If you work at a place with 10 or 20 people who all see each other every day, then you need to keep your romantic life out of the office. And like Slim said, it's not simply a matter of legal requirements. It's not good for your career to become known as the creepy guy who hits on every woman he sees. That tends to gross out other women and men.
zengirl Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 The 90s were bad, because no one knew what the rules were. It seems to have gotten better now, but that might just be because I'm an old fart and just stay away from people. I think it has gotten better. I also think sexual harassment, in general, has become more rare (still not rare enough, and fwiw, women are not always the targets of it!). I also think it varies state-to-state, workplace-to-workplace. I've been in a hostile workplace where I felt harassed and where disgusting comments were made about my sexuality. It's part of why I got out of advertising. That was just a few years ago, really, but more firms are even better about that now. If I'd graduated a few years later, I might have not switched to education or at least wouldn't have had that extra incentive. I have never been sexually harassed or bothered by a man my age in the workplace; it was always older men. I think it developed a real fear and resentment of older men in me for awhile, honestly. When any man in that age range and look approached me for any reason, I was generally fearful and judgmental towards him because of those experiences. The harassment I experienced were things like comments ("jokes") about how I closed an important deal by taking my clothes off, etc. All vastly untrue, usually made by men old enough to be my father. I was a pretty girl, but many of my clients were women anyway. Some were not, but I certainly never even flirted with clients, though it was often suggested I do so. I may have been playful or friendly with some I felt comfortable with, but that's just socialization and was often women as well as men. I have heard, from friends in the advertising biz, that such language is not as tolerated any longer, and I think that's a good thing. Men who truly respected me flirting with me in the office has never bothered me. It's really not hard to find that line -- it's mostly in attitude. If you actually KNOW someone, it's super easy. I also don't think expressing interest in someone is the same as harassing someone, nor do I know any women that do. Now expressing interest in a crass, over-sexualized way, sure. If it'd get a drink thrown at your face in any scenario, keep it out of the workplace for sure.
wwwjd Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 There is no "line".... if they FLIRT with you and one day YOU woke up in a bad mood, you COULD press charges and win, and wreck is life and career and make some money. This LINE is imaginary. 2
wwwjd Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 see... this is how it goes..... today over lunch, I was talking with my married buddy who told me years ago, a gal was coming on to him AT THE OFFICE, rubbing his back and stuff after he told her to not do that as he is married etc.... the next week SHE filed a sex harassment suit against HIM! It got dropped because EVERYONE knew he was a stand up guy, luckily. FIVE SECONDS AGO, the girls I mentioned in a previous post stopped me and asked me to make a rap video (I produce music and videos off hours) about a pizza delivery guy. The song will be asking what kind of pizza is in the box and the chorus is "Sausage in my box".... is that harassment?? TECHINCALLY, I would think so. We ALL know exactly what they are talking about and we had a big laugh over it, and I agreed I would make the video. It will be on youtube sometime in the future and I'll link it here. Ima have some FUN with this production... outside of WORK, of course.
dasein Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 The harassment I experienced were things like comments ("jokes") about how I closed an important deal by taking my clothes off, etc. If you heard the things we say to each other when women aren't around, you'd see that for what it was, kidding you and attempts to bond at the same time as opposed to some "disgusting" display. Yeah it's uncomfortable being told you did a sex act to get a deal if you take it personally, but we make the same exact comments to each other all the time. "Whose d-ck did you have to suck to get that done so fast?" "No one's I just sent your mother over with a tube of minty fresh KY." The irony is that by saying things like that to you, they were inviting you INTO the club as opposed to keeping you OUT of it. The male pack judges on competence and bonhomie, and because we aren't women and don't think like you, isn't interested in excluding anyone, but rather in including as many able bodied pack members as possible. This carries throughout all sorts of social interactions, not just work. OTOH, if you can't take a joke, a stick in the mud, a troublemaker, head on down the road to the next pack, we like to have fun here because life is full of misery enough already. Men have indeed learned that the type of bonding we do with each other is unacceptable to women (who let's face it tend to be underdeveloped in the sense of humor department and overdeveloped in the taking everything personally department anyway), inevitably viewed inflexibly as insulting or demeaning, and that just reinforces a mentality of women as unequal, needing protection from the bad old world, unable to take a joke, thin-skinned and -not- belonging to the group.
zengirl Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 (edited) The irony is that by saying things like that to you, they were inviting you INTO the club as opposed to keeping you OUT of it. Perhaps that's not a club I wish to be a part of, and I don't think the workplace is the place for such things. Unlike EH's co-workers, I've never felt hostility purely because others have different interests or lunches or whatnot. Do what you want, as long as you uphold common courtesy. I've no issues with my male friends who I choose myself and socialize with personally saying things that are crass (and we regularly do), but that element does not belong in the workplace or with people you do not know well. Seems easy enough to understand to me. I've known many men, particularly gay men who have been in situations where they have been harassed for their sexuality and understand, but also some straight males who don't like that form of communication, who have expressed to me that they felt harassed by similar comments and that they feel they are an inappropriate way to communicate. Perhaps all men do not communicate like that either, but only a small subset who don't understand others' feelings. At any rate, having been there, I disagree with your assessment. Many of these men were older men I began outperforming (and thus earning more than, because bonuses made up a good portion of the salary structure) and they resented that. The better I did, the greater the resentment, and the worse the comments got. Not all the men there said such things, of course. You probably won't believe that they truly resented me and said those things out of disrespect, but at the very least those men violated courtesy. The fact that you cannot see that makes it easy to see why you might not want to be alone with a woman in the office -- someone with your mindset probably shouldn't be. *shrugs* Edited April 9, 2012 by zengirl
dasein Posted April 9, 2012 Posted April 9, 2012 You probably won't believe that they truly resented me and said those things out of disrespect, but at the very least those men violated courtesy. The fact that you cannot see that makes it easy to see why you might not want to be alone with a woman in the office -- someone with your mindset probably shouldn't be. *shrugs* Is there any logical connection between those two thoughts? between the strawman and the insult? Thought not. That and the rest of the post pretty much makes my points about women, sense of humor, overearnestness, lack of bonhomie, and hypersensitivity for me. Thanks.
prune juice Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 I think if she thought you were creepy you'd be getting avoidance vibes back from her. She would be avoiding speaking to you, spending time alone with you and generally be quite cool. She would not be catching your eye except with a glare on her face. It would be pretty clear that she's not interested. Guys that think a girl is interested in them when she's giving them the cold-shoulder must be really insensitive. not necessarily and a lot of men often misinterpret nonverbal cues from gals.
prune juice Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 There is no "line".... if they FLIRT with you and one day YOU woke up in a bad mood, you COULD press charges and win, and wreck is life and career and make some money. This LINE is imaginary. even if there is a line it changes from woman to woman, day to day, minute to minute. to top that all some guys have zero ability to read noverbal cues. is the risk worth it? unequivally no unless you are an expert at reading women. not too many guys are.
mtber75 Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 Flirting is unacceptable at work to me. It's unprofessional and clouds judgement.
zengirl Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 Is there any logical connection between those two thoughts? between the strawman and the insult? Thought not. That and the rest of the post pretty much makes my points about women, sense of humor, overearnestness, lack of bonhomie, and hypersensitivity for me. Thanks. Yes, you displayed in your post a locker room mentality and described it as the typical male. IME, there are many men who were bullied in locker rooms as kids, etc, and don't like this mentality any more than women. They would not have the same fears and opinions as you, as would the many men who may be okay with the locker room mentality IN THE LOCKER ROOM and who understand they would not speak that way with polite company. They would have no fear of being alone with a woman because most of your fears emerge from your own incompatibility with the polite, modern workplace, as evidenced in your insulting and cruel reply to my harassment situation.
dasein Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 insulting and cruel reply to my harassment situation. Yeah, I know, everything that isn't PC cleared and hypersanitized today equates to "locker room," sure. Somehow I don't feel particularly "cruel" in any of my replies to this thread.
zengirl Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 Yeah, I know, everything that isn't PC cleared and hypersanitized today equates to "locker room," sure. Somehow I don't feel particularly "cruel" in any of my replies to this thread. That's because you've never experienced harassment. The comments those men made were wrong. If I was in that workplace today, I'd say so a lot clearer than I knew how to when I was in my early 20s. They cheapened my accomplishments and tried to run me out of there, and, sadly, they succeeded. I'm not actually a fan of being overly PC but not sexualizing the actual people you work with in the workplace to the point where you make the statements I referred to or the statements you made in your actual reply is not being PC. It's simply being a polite human being who is respectful of others and respectful of the agency of others. That's not hard, but you seem to have a very strong desire to avoid it.
stillafool Posted April 10, 2012 Posted April 10, 2012 Flirting is unacceptable at work to me. It's unprofessional and clouds judgement. I completely agree. It is always better to keep your personal life out of the workplace. There are tons of people to date on the outside so putting your career in jeopardy is just plain stupid.
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