He lied: Am I over-reacting?

[JohnP82]

If you're serious about trying to get to know someone and seeing a future with them starting to develop, you don't have sex with someone and then cover your tracks about it under the technicality that you two are not exclusive.

[Oxy Moronovich]

Hmm...had a crush on OP for years, friends for months, making love for weeks, saying he loves her and, yet, he had no issue dipping his wick into someone else a week before making love with her. While he may technically be allowed such indulgences, IMO such actions speak to his frame of mind and sincerity in all this crushing and friendship and love stuff. Then there's the other part; the creative truth. Hmm...

You guys are making a big deal on this man's feelings for the OP. Having a crush on someone does NOT = unable to feel sexual attraction toward other people. A crush can be anything from slight attraction to strong affection. It's funny how in the 21st century a person can't have consensual (non-prostitute-related) sex when he's not in a committed relationship without being criticized.

[Oxy Moronovich]

Try asking a European the following: "What is exclusivity?"

 

They would have no idea what you're talking about. Why? Because the word is an American invention. Having sex with other people while you're dating someone for a relationship happens all around the world, but it is considered cheating, except the US is pretty much the only country/culture that uses a word to justify cheating during the dating phase.

 

The sad part is that I see this being talked about on LS and yet many don't even REALIZE the unethical aspect of it. It completely blows my mind.

Can you please clarify which European countries think like this? I'd hate to break it to you, but Europe is vast, culturally and socially heterogeneous CONTINENT, not country. Not only do attitudes vary from one Euro country to the next, they also vary within European countries.

[carhill]

You guys are making a big deal on this man's feelings for the OP. Having a crush on someone does NOT = unable to feel sexual attraction toward other people. A crush can be anything from slight attraction to strong affection. It's funny how in the 21st century a person can't have consensual (non-prostitute-related) sex when he's not in a committed relationship without being criticized.

I'm just putting all the factors from the OP into a hopefully cohesive continuum. I've formed no conclusions as of yet, hence my followup question.

[Oxy Moronovich]

There is no European country I know of that inherently knows the concept of exclusivity and uses it to justify cheating while dating someone for a relationship. Having sex while dating someone for a relationship is considered cheating.

 

Don't get me wrong, people in European countries cheat just as much as people from other countries. HOWEVER, the concept of exclusivity is not used to justify that cheating. It is an unknown (American) cultural concept to people from other nations.

 

I even think that it's a big enough difference to cause a culture shock.

Unknown American concept? Do you realize the OP is in *gasp* the UK? I've read Aussie and Canuck posters here talking about multi-dating and exclusivity here too. Imagine that.

 

Many European countries are more progressive about sex. In Germany and France, for example, no social connotations come around when people have sex on the first date. It's not considered bad to do like the OP's man: have sex with one girl then another a week later before getting into a relationship with the first girl. European countries may not have a word for multidating but they do it just as much.

 

French and Germans don't need to justify cheating because, unlike you, they wouldn't think what the OP's man did was cheating.

[shayla]

Take this for what it's worth ok? I wasted 3 years on a liar. But it all started with one small lie at the beginning of our relationship. Not a big deal at the time, I let it go.

 

But you see, that wasn't the only thing he was lying about. That lie gave birth to a nightmare that you would not believe. Gaslighting, cheating, an entire other life complete with another relationship. And he lied to her right up to the altar. He is still lying to her now, thank God it isn't me.

 

If I had it to do over again, the first lie would have been the last one.

[FitChick]

I would have the same issue with it if they didn't have sex.

 

Example:

 

A woman and I are dating for a relationship. We're in our sixth week and things are going well. Then suddenly I'm jogging through a park and I see her walking hand in hand with another man. A man that she is also dating, yet she never told me about.

 

What do you imagine I would think? I would be done right then and there. And they would have had no sex, no kissing, no making out, just holding hand AND deception.

 

I don't know how else to clear it up. My issue with it is the lying, the hiding/veiling of it and the deception. Why? Because then you can't opt out from dating that person, because by lying about it they take away your freedom of choice, because they lie and hide essential information.

 

Bad example because I know a couple who had a similar situation. They had no agreement to date exclusively. The woman assumed they were exclusive. She found out he was seeing another woman. It was never clear whether he had sex with that other woman or not. She calmly told him without mentioning she knew about the other woman, that she felt perhaps she and he ought to start seeing other people. He was shocked, broke down crying and said he didn't want anyone except her. This little reality check was enough and they agreed to move in together. They lived together for several years and eventually got married. They are still married twenty years later and very happy.

 

Sometimes people don't realize how important another person is to them until they stand to lose them and they have to make a decision. In your scenario, you shouldn't have been a p*ssy and simply laid your cards on the table for either a clean, quick ending or a new beginning where everyone knows where they stand.

[Oxy Moronovich]

I have no idea where she's from, but if she's from the UK, then that's probably why she didn't mention the concept of exclusivity in the first place. That word was first mentioned in this post by someone from the US.

 

 

 

If you'd ever try that with a German woman, you'd break her heart. Modern Germans have some of the most traditional values in Europe. You're trying to justify a culture of cheating that you have come to see as normal and you use an argument for it, that I happen to know is just not true.

 

You just don't see any issues with it do you? This sort of thing blows my mind, every time. And not only my mind, because I've talked about this very subject with Europeans from different countries. Why? Because at some point I was doubting myself, because I thought that I must have been crazy or something after reading on LS that so many people see this as normal.

 

Of all the different Europeans I spoke to about this subject, both male and female, all of them saw it exactly the same way as I did. Only one guy disagreed and he admitted to be a player.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think genuine values are on a slippery slope world wide. And besides, I don't think all Americans hold this view. There are Americans with genuine values too, but I've been having a hard time spotting them here on LS. I could be wrong, but from my perspective they seem to be a minority.

I love how you say, "Europeans think this way. And Europeans think that way", as if they were one, small homogeneous group. For some idiotic reason, you keep trying to make it seem as if ALL Europeans have the same dating pattern. Once again, can you specify which Europeans?

 

German women are far from traditional when it comes to dating: they don't see a problem with sex on the first date, they don't expect men to compliment on their looks (although they like it), and paying dutch is considered okay. I've talked to many Americans who dated German women and they've said the sexual mores are far more relaxed.

 

French men I've talked to describe French women in one word: distant. French women are notoriously unapproachable. It can take months for them to come around. While a French man is seducing one woman, he'll be making love to another. She'll be making love to another man as well. And it's perfectly normal.

 

Greek women always complain about their men being cheats. Greek men complain about their women being fussy. A Greek man doesn't mind having sex with an Eastern European immigrant in Athens or a British female sex tourist while dating a Greek woman.

 

I can go on and on. But I'll just stop there. I just want to point out how, unlike you, I can specify which European countries act in what way. If I acted like you and grouped European dating habits in one small bucket, I'd lose my credibility.

[waiting4u]

Good point... OP, why did his crush go unrequited for *years*?

 

Well, he manages a pretty hip restaurant / club near my place that I have frequented for several years. So we sort of saw each other but didn't talk much (other than to say hello) for a long time. Last Fall, we started talking a lot and I came in pretty much twice weekly. He would come sit with me towards the end of the night and we would have long conversations over drinks (we'd end up being the last people in the place). At one point before Christmas he pretty much obviously hit on me but I shrugged it off because I was interested in someone else and I didn't find him particularly attractive. Then one night we had talked for a really long time (we have so much in common) and he kissed me. And that was sort of it. We went out on a few dates and hopped into bed together and now we see each other nearly every day and we are sort of mushy and ridiculous. I don't think he ever really thought I would go out with him - he's kind of shy and nerdy - so I wouldn't say he was ever "actively pursuing" me until I kissed him back that first night.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure exactly when he would find the time to cheat on me since he's usually either at work or with me. But whenever he slept with this woman it was really close to the very beginning of our relationship - days before - maybe even after he had kissed me for the first time, but not after we had slept together. The thing is - it's the LIE that I have a problem with. Although the sex thing really grosses me out, I suppose it wasn't necessarily an unethical move on his part. I have trust issues and just don't want to discover down the line that he is lying about other things.

 

That said, I think perhaps I went a little psycho jealous, but we are in the middle of that honeymoon period where we are just nuts generally, so I suppose we both get a free pass this time at least.