Author pacardi Posted March 30, 2012 Author Posted March 30, 2012 So when are you gonna tell us if you're Partner 1 or Partner 2? Ha. I might let it go for a few more hours, but I'll let you know. And it'll be interesting to hear what ya'll think then.
mostlyclueless Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 For what it's worth, I have been on both sides of the money issue. When I was younger, I made about 2x as much money as my live-in boyfriend. We split the rent evenly, and I paid for pretty much everything else. I was just happy that I was able to provide for us so well, and we could do so many fun things and live a comfortable lifestyle. I took a 50% paycut to go back to school, and now I live with someone who makes 4x as much as I do. He seems to feel pretty similarly to how I did before. I would hate his guts if he asked me to go halfsies on everything, and we would spend a lot of time sitting at home resenting each other instead of having an awesome fun life together.
TaraMaiden Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 Ha. I might let it go for a few more hours, but I'll let you know. And it'll be interesting to hear what ya'll think then. That does it. you earn more.
Author pacardi Posted March 30, 2012 Author Posted March 30, 2012 For what it's worth, I have been on both sides of the money issue. When I was younger, I made about 2x as much money as my live-in boyfriend. We split the rent evenly, and I paid for pretty much everything else. I was just happy that I was able to provide for us so well, and we could do so many fun things and live a comfortable lifestyle. I took a 50% paycut to go back to school, and now I live with someone who makes 4x as much as I do. He seems to feel pretty similarly to how I did before. I would hate his guts if he asked me to go halfsies on everything, and we would spend a lot of time sitting at home resenting each other instead of having an awesome fun life together. In your first situation... how would you have felt if you asked him to move back to your home town... but he had different opinions on the the best place to live (neighborhood, how nice residence is, etc.)? Maybe he was willing to contribute as much as he was able, but you had to pick up the rest... and you ended up in a residence he wanted more than you did? Would you have happily obliged, or would you have felt trapped?
Dust Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 So when are you gonna tell us if you're Partner 1 or Partner 2? Do you even have to ask... cmon I'd be shocked if we are dealing with any one but partner 1 the way this has all been worded.
Author pacardi Posted March 30, 2012 Author Posted March 30, 2012 Do you even have to ask... cmon I'd be shocked if we are dealing with any one but partner 1 the way this has all been worded. Shall we take bets on which partner I am?
mostlyclueless Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 In your first situation... how would you have felt if you asked him to move back to your home town... but he had different opinions on the the best place to live (neighborhood, how nice residence is, etc.)? Maybe he was willing to contribute as much as he was able, but you had to pick up the rest... and you ended up in a residence he wanted more than you did? Would you have happily obliged, or would you have felt trapped? If I asked someone to pick up and move somewhere for me, I would definitely not split hairs over completely irrelevant things like the percent of rent we were paying (as long as it was manageable for each of us) or the niceness of the apartment. It would not have even occurred to me to care. Again, I would have just been glad to be able to give my boyfriend the nice apartment he liked, especially after he was nice enough to move to a place that I wanted to live. I am starting to wonder if Partner 1 and Partner 2 in your example even like each other.
Author pacardi Posted March 30, 2012 Author Posted March 30, 2012 If I asked someone to pick up and move somewhere for me, I would definitely not split hairs over completely irrelevant things like the percent of rent we were paying (as long as it was manageable for each of us) or the niceness of the apartment. It would not have even occurred to me to care. Again, I would have just been glad to be able to give my boyfriend the nice apartment he liked, especially after he was nice enough to move to a place that I wanted to live. I am starting to wonder if Partner 1 and Partner 2 in your example even like each other. They do. But they're both smart, analytical people who also happen to both be a little stubborn, especially at first. (By the way, we had another chat about it last night. Both of us agreed to do it the other partner's way, with conditions... meaning we didn't actually solve anything, because in an effort to talk it out and communicate and understand each other... neither of us, in the end, insisted on getting his/her way. Hmm.)
Quiet Storm Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 My husband and I are married, both our checks get direct deposited into one checking account and all expenses are paid from a shared account. So there is no his money/her money arguments. It's "our money". In the case of an unmarried couple with separate bank accounts, I think they should both split the housing costs equally. I think it should be like a roommate situation. But I have to point out that there is no "team" mentality with this couple. Resentment will breed quickly if one partner feels shorted and one taken advantage of. It creates an environment where both sides are keeping score. Before you know it they'll be putting sticky notes on food in the refrigerator. I think this is how live-in situations get complicated. There is no real commitment because everything is still so separate. Instead of starting a life TOGETHER, it sounds like a business arrangement. Maybe I'm just old school.
InJest Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 No one has taken taxes into account here. Assuming the couple is living inthe United States, the person making 40k will be making a bit less than 30k after taxes. The person making 30k will be making about 26k after taxes, not accounting for the deductions that can be taken out for the interest on their student loans. These two make virtually the same amount of money, and should be paying the same. 3
spookie Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 My problem with person 1's mentality is that he is also the one with higher debt and the one pushing for a nicer place. That indicates a possible issue wih financial combatibility, beyond the original question.
Dust Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 No one has taken taxes into account here. Assuming the couple is living inthe United States, the person making 40k will be making a bit less than 30k after taxes. The person making 30k will be making about 26k after taxes, not accounting for the deductions that can be taken out for the interest on their student loans. These two make virtually the same amount of money, and should be paying the same. I mentioned tax's in my first post. My problem with person 1's mentality is that he is also the one with higher debt and the one pushing for a nicer place. That indicates a possible issue wih financial combatibility, beyond the original question. My problem with person one is they are the person posting here hiding behind person 1 person 2... haha makes sense they are pushing for the nicer place since they don't want to pay the extra money lol. Its also funny how person one is like "we've been togather 2 years and thrown around the idea of mariage" haha.
InJest Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 heres the thing the person who makes more money is also the person willing to live in cheaper housing... It isn't that person fault they make a little more and don't have as many debts. In fact even if they get married unless one person starts making a lot more then the other... the one who makes more money should have to pay more just because they have less debts.... definetly not at this stage in the relationship. Split everything 50/50. This is your first post. Where did you mention taxes? I agree with your posts and like your style..but I don't see anything about taxes.
Dust Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 This is your first post. Where did you mention taxes? I agree with your posts and like your style..but I don't see anything about taxes. Olright it was post number 46 or something like that in this thread. like my 3rd post or something. I made it at 11:30 Thing is partner 2 only makes 10k more a year and thats before taxes. Is what I said. Another reason why I think person number 1 is here posting among many other simplifications.
reallyhotguy Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 This is a math problem, isn't it? Using the standard rent affordability equation (yearly salary / 40), we can determine a maximum amount of monthly housing expense that each person (P) can afford. P1 makes 30k, so their housing max is $750/mo. At 40k, P2's housing max is $1000/mo. Both P1 and P2's housing min is $0. So, if P1 and P2 were both to contribute 100% of their housing budgets, you would be able to afford a combined rent of (750 + 1000 =) $1750/mo. If both P1 and P2 were to contribute 50% of their housing budgets, you'd be able to afford rent of (375 + 500 =) $875/mo. Let's say P1 and P2 both paid the same dollar amount -- $500. That would be 50% of P2's budget. But it would be 66% of P1's budget. A clear inequality.
soserious1 Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 Both partners are paying rent in their respective apartments now. If they want to move in together, they tally up the amount of both their rents combined. I bet they can find a really nice place that costs them both less per month than they are paying now. Both parties currently pay 1K per month each for rent.. they find an awesome place for say $1,200.. split 50/50 that's $600 apiece, leaving them each an extra $400 in their pockets.
Dust Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 Both partners are paying rent in their respective apartments now. If they want to move in together, they tally up the amount of both their rents combined. I bet they can find a really nice place that costs them both less per month than they are paying now. Both parties currently pay 1K per month each for rent.. they find an awesome place for say $1,200.. split 50/50 that's $600 apiece, leaving them each an extra $400 in their pockets. greedy partner one is upset that they have more debt and make less money. They need to profit.
serial muse Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 (edited) In the first post, I sympathized more with partner one's attitude - the idea of an equitable-if-not-equal rent split seems more of a partnership to me, in which both partners are trying to be cognizant of each others' needs. In that scenario, another reasonable compromise, to me, would be to figure out what partner one could comfortably pay, and then find a place that is double that rent, so that both are paying equally. But then you said that partner two would be willing to do that, and partner one wants a nicer place than s/he can afford, because partner two could subsidize. So that seems really selfish on the part of partner one. And then you said that partner two was to some extent resentful of the idea that s/he should pay more - in part, s/he actually suggested, because partner one had made (in partner two's opinion) poor(er) educational choices which ended up with him/her being in more debt. Sheesh and yuck. Both partners are kind of sucking here. I don't think this is just about money anyway, I think it's about compromise and control. I honestly don't know what the best solution is to this situation - because at this point it doesn't seem like it's about doing any math, it's more about why nobody feels like S/HE needs to compromise and the other person is being the unreasonable one. You're both being difficult. Try empathizing with each other instead of starting out by being angry. Don't you want mutual happiness? The questions you need to figure out are: Why is it important to partner one to have a nicer place? Why does partner two worry about being taken advantage of? Why bring up educational choices in this way - was that just out of anger and defensiveness, or did that partner really mean that? Edited to add: for what it's worth, I suspect the OP is partner two. Edited March 30, 2012 by serial muse
Dust Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 Edited to add: for what it's worth, I suspect the OP is partner two. partner two constantly comes off sounding worse because IMO things are being taken out of context. So It's surely partner one and if they say they are partner 2 I'm going to bring out all the points which will call that into great question such as feeling the need to add the detail "partner 2 says partner 1 should have got a better education" that just sounds like something partner 1 would write taking somethign said once during a fight out of context. Partner 2 wouldn't write that detail in. It's partner 1 for that and many other reasons.
Mme. Chaucer Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 I have to go with the people who are saying … really? If finances are this much of an issue right now, I think you guys are in serious trouble. It's already a power struggle, and whomever "loses" is not going to be happy, and this unhappiness is going to show up in many places in the relationship. 1
Feelin Frisky Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 Agreed. But that doesn't negate the fact that the "bigger bread-winner" feels like it's his/her hard-earned money and doesn't like even a hint of someone else telling him/her what to do with it. I don't mean to bring politics into this, but it's kind of reminiscent of Democrats who want to tax big business for the greater good... and (Republican) business leaders who say hands off, that's my cash. Maybe it's a stretch, but that keeps coming to mind. Since you brought up politics, "civilization" is something everyone shares. And civilization and it's quality take upkeep and pay back on what's put into it. Anyone who just shows up late to America and thinks god built the roads or fought the wars and they should just get free freedom and keep every cent while using the roads and police and fireman and schools for nothing is the worst kind of free-loader. No one believes in taxes for their own sake, but the common good isn't free--the wild will reclaim it in no time without diligent upkeep and investment in smarts that costs the contribution we call taxes. 1
Author pacardi Posted March 30, 2012 Author Posted March 30, 2012 In the first post, I sympathized more with partner one's attitude - the idea of an equitable-if-not-equal rent split seems more of a partnership to me, in which both partners are trying to be cognizant of each others' needs. In that scenario, another reasonable compromise, to me, would be to figure out what partner one could comfortably pay, and then find a place that is double that rent, so that both are paying equally. But then you said that partner two would be willing to do that, and partner one wants a nicer place than s/he can afford, because partner two could subsidize. So that seems really selfish on the part of partner one. And then you said that partner two was to some extent resentful of the idea that s/he should pay more - in part, s/he actually suggested, because partner one had made (in partner two's opinion) poor(er) educational choices which ended up with him/her being in more debt. Sheesh and yuck. Both partners are kind of sucking here. I don't think this is just about money anyway, I think it's about compromise and control. I honestly don't know what the best solution is to this situation - because at this point it doesn't seem like it's about doing any math, it's more about why nobody feels like S/HE needs to compromise and the other person is being the unreasonable one. You're both being difficult. Try empathizing with each other instead of starting out by being angry. Don't you want mutual happiness? The questions you need to figure out are: Why is it important to partner one to have a nicer place? Why does partner two worry about being taken advantage of? Why bring up educational choices in this way - was that just out of anger and defensiveness, or did that partner really mean that? Edited to add: for what it's worth, I suspect the OP is partner two. Okay, here's the big revelation. I am Partner 1. I make the $30,000. I am male. I am two years younger than her and therefore two years lower on the career ladder. Some will no doubt also say two years less mature. Here's the background, in all its glory. You'll get the full flavor of things and can decide for yourself. (If you want to skip all this... start reading again below.) We started dating about 2 1/2 years ago. After two or three months she started sleeping over at my place every night for almost a year. I was staying free at a big house my dad owned, fixing it up to sell it later. I paid all the bills, food, etc. but paid no rent since I was remodeling the place, while she continued to pay rent at her own apartment even though she was never there. After a year, I lost my job and had trouble finding another one, and around that same time, she got a new job offer, with more pay and more responsibility. It was near her home town three hours away, and she asked me to move with her. I wasn't sure about officially moving in together but I didn't want to do long distance and didn't want to break up. I also didn't have a job immediately, so I would only have been able to contribute a little bit to rent. At first she accepted that, since I was willing to move for her. We first lived with her mom til we found a place. As I said earlier, it did end up being the place that I preferred, and eventually she started to resent that she was paying more for an apartment that was her second choice. Eventually I found a job and started contributing more but she was still paying for the majority of the rent. I tried to make up the difference with gym membership, discounted cable through my job, extra chores, paying for basic food items, etc. After a year, I realized I would never get the opportunities I wanted in my field of work if I stayed in that company (I work in a specialized field with very few openings and a lot of competition for those openings). We talked it over, and she initially said she'd consider relocating with me if I took a job in another city. Unfortunately, when I got that job, she herself got a new position, again, with more pay (lower base, but higher overall earnings with commissions), and she decided not to move. So we moved me 1200 miles away, said a tearful goodbye at the airport, and she flew home. She moved in with her mom to save money and we did the long distance thing for about five months, but I hated my job. I had taken it thinking it would be a career advancement, but it was incredibly miserable (truth be told, that doesn't even begin to describe how bad it was). Plus money was tight. I missed her. It was a bad situation all around, so I decided to cut my losses, move back "home" with her, and change careers. I started applying for jobs back where she was. Initially no luck, because companies aren't interested in non-local candidates, especially right now. I took my tax return and moved back about 4 weeks ago, staying with her mother until I found a job and we found a place to live. I just got the $30,000 job offer two days ago, which started us on the apartment hunt, which started us on the payment discussion, which is what led me to post here. (Start reading again here.) That all said... the single argument I find most compelling is the tax argument. Her actual income is $42,000 a year, plus commissions (I didn't include that so as to give her the benefit of the doubt essentially). I will make exactly $30,000 when I start next week. But those couple of posters are right that, when you consider taxes, her base salary is only about $5,000 more than mine. I didn't realize the tax rate jumped so significantly at $34,000 a year. So while she will still have much more "disposable income" than I will... the reality is that it's not nearly as much as I thought. I don't know what the final decision will be, but I would think we will split all household bills and she will stick to her initial offer to pay $500 a month for rent. Meanwhile, I'll probably pay 400 or 450... and if we find a slightly less expensive place that we both agree on, it may end up being split down the middle, say, 425/425 or 450/450. I've accepted that we may not be able to live in a "nice" apartment and that "adequate" may have to be sufficient, especially if it's at least in a good neighborhood. Speaking of which, I posted on one other forum and was accused of all sorts of things, including trying to "swindle" her. Not at all. I admit there may be a case of trying to keep up with the Joneses, but it's not malicious in any way. Is it unfair for me to expect her to cater to that individualistic tendency? Yes, guilty. I think she'd be the first to tell you that I have a very deeply ingrained sense of justice and fairness, and I want to do the right thing. I very much see both sides of the discussion, but it's still difficult to be unbiased and look at things from an outside perspective... when you're inside. I tried to be as fair as possible, but Dust is right, in some cases, I gave slightly more context to my opinion despite my best efforts to play devil's advocate. Still, I didn't ask for your opinions because I wanted to throw them in her face or anything. I asked for your opinions as a sort of gut check for myself, so it's certainly been valuable. Ultimately, we're both young still (in our 20's), and while we have talked about marriage as something we want to work towards, we both realize that we each have things we need to work on. We both realize the importance of compromise, and usually we do compromise in some capacity. But back to my comment earlier, we can both be a little stubborn, maybe a little selfish, until we have a chance to think about things, apologize if necessary, and work to a reasonable solution. Thanks for all your thoughts. Apologies for the length of this. I'm sure those that got through all of it will have some more comments to share. If critical of me, please don't crucify me. If critical of her, please don't crucify her. Thanks again.
mostlyclueless Posted March 30, 2012 Posted March 30, 2012 Does your girlfriend do this kind of bean-counting about other things ("I did the dishes last time!") or was this a one-off for her?
Author pacardi Posted March 30, 2012 Author Posted March 30, 2012 Does your girlfriend do this kind of bean-counting about other things ("I did the dishes last time!") or was this a one-off for her? Honestly I think it's mostly a one-off. She has other things she's immature about, as do I, but they're unrelated. In this case I think she's just a little resentful over what happened last time we moved together, having to pay the majority of the rent in a place that was her second or third choice. She doesn't want that to happen again and thus why she wanted to put her foot down, quickly and firmly, this time. Some will agree, some will disagree.
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